I read somewhere that the “servo wave” action of the deore and above Shimano brakes is what causes the “on off” feeling vs the modulation of hopes.

https://nsmb.com/articles/are-shimanos-m396-best-budget-brakes/

The servo wave means the movement of the pad is non linear, it is pushed quickly to the disc and then the mechanical leverage is ramped up – meaning they feel like they have lots of bite but feel on/off.

Hope doesn’t play this game, they have a more linear action and when jumping from a shimano bike to hope equipped they can feel powerless until you get used to it.

I run deore bl-m6000 servo wave on one bike and bl-m365 non servo wave brakes on another and you can feel this! Both are running resin pads and twin pot calipers. When you go to grab a handful of bl-m365 you can tell theres not the same bite, and you do have to squeeze harder for the same retardation. However you are rewarded with more modulation I’m convinced.

I wonder if Shimano’s “lesser” levers that don’t have servo wave, paired with the new 4-pot calipers could be the ultimate cheap brake even better than deores?

You get the modulation (rather than the on-off) of a non servo wave brake and the ultimate power of a 4 pot caliper.

They aren’t going to feel as strong as a servo wave 4 pot in the car park and will lack the ultimate power of those, but perhaps the modulation is a worthy trade off?

Stick sintered pads in and decent 203f 180r rotors from the outset.

They do BR-MT420 4 pots for under €100 the set

https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/shimano-br-mt420-disc-brake-set-870486

Anyone got any comparison time on these?

Worth a try for experimental purposes 😂 but deores recommend resin pads only as they do not have the same pistons as slx and above. Could result in over heating on big descents with sintered pads.

Are they the same lever or the horrible 2-finger touring levers? People usually criticize the longer magura levers for the on-off feel and upgrade to the short version to get more modulation. Worth bearing that in mind. Might be more a case that shimano don’t use servo wave with the long levers rather than a cost saving measure.

I’ve got Guide-R brakes on my new bike and TBH thinking of going back to shimano because I miss the on-off and shear power.

Worth a try for experimental purposes 😂 but deores recommend resin pads only as they do not have the same pistons as slx and above. Could result in over heating on big descents with sintered pads.

I think that’s down to the rotors, not the pistons. If you pick up deore rotors they have softer edges whereas the more expensive ones are laser cut then ground perfectly flat which leaves sharp edges.

The Deore lever 2 pots I had on my old bike were nowhere near as grabby as the XT brakes I tried on a demo bike – probably due to having less power overall, even with servo wave they felt good.

Have since moved onto Hope V4’s with oodles of modulation and (yes) bags of power.

https://www.bike-discount.de/en/buy/shimano-br-mt501-disc-brake-set-897695

My Reign came with the above, very powerful and I’ve never noticed any lack of modulation, but I’ve been using servo-wave levers for a long time, never used Hope brakes so can’t compare.

As Simon said above – I’ve got a set of BR-MT501 on the hardtail. A truly underrated brake. Masses of power and while not comparable to the saints or XTR’s on my other bikes I’d say they are no far off.

Also, I smashed up a lever and it was ~£25 to replace. Ideal.

Cant go wrong for the money and absolutely recommended.

Cheers

deores recommend resin pads only as they do not have the same pistons as slx and above

Also, they may only be supplied with rotors stamped “resin pads only”.

I thought it was the rotors that are resin only?

You can buy MT420 with D02S metal pads as an option https://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-d02s-metal-disc-brake-pads/ fit list shows mt420

I find the “long trekking levers” not a problem, I just move them well inboard and run the gear shifter outboard of the brake lever.

I’m using sintered pads on mine – xt / saint rotors tho. No issues.

@Simon….that link to zee germans wont let you buy them in the UK. Im not sure why….

I think the servo-wave thing is a red herring.

The four-piston Shimano brakes have tons more modulation, especially if you use bigger rotors.

Bigger rotors with the one-pot Shimano brakes helps a bit too, FWIW.

@Simon….that link to zee germans wont let you buy them in the UK. Im not sure why….

Brexit… Shimano can now lock down their supply chain once more. Previously it was judged illegal for them to ask shops not to send them to the UK.

No longer applies..? Are we at the mercy of Madison pricing once more?

Luckily they are all over aliexpress and even cheaper, Chinese suppliers perhaps are less bothered than the Germans.

It lets me order once I change my location to UK. Seems to think I’m in India at first.

@breninbeener where does it say that? I’ve just added a brakeset to my basket and clicked through to shipping with no problem.

Ah bum…i will check my location is set to UK. Sorry if i have been a little dim!

Ian

@Simon, just logged in and that was the case…sorry everyone!

Luckily they are all over aliexpress and even cheaper, Chinese suppliers perhaps are less bothered than the Germans.

How;s the warranty experience with those retailers? Genuine question.

I find the “long trekking levers” not a problem, I just move them well inboard and run the gear shifter outboard of the brake lever.

And if you have any old Shimano lever that you like lying around (most people do from various defunct and leaky brakesets), you can run that with the new caliper. Mine is hooked up with an SLX lever I had in the spares box.

Whats the practical difference between the “deore” and the SLX/XT caliper? Or even Saint/Zee?

Ive got some older XT brakes spare and wondering if its worth just buying callipers.

I personally wouldn’t bother. 2 complete sets have both had to have seals replaced and they still leak now. Utter pain in the arse and not what I expected from Shimano

Hmmm….. Guides with 220mm rotors it is then!

I have just fitted a front MT501/520 brake to replace an 11year old SLX which was getting very grabby but at the same time underpowered. Only one ride so far and I am impressed with the modulation as well as power. I shall definitely replace the rear with the same when funds allow.

I think that’s down to the rotors, not the pistons

Oh yeah. My bad. Ignore my original post.

I’ve got the MT501/520 and they are fully brilliant, regardless of the cost!

I’ve some old leaky xt brakes with leaky calipers in the spares box, sounds like a good idea to buy some new cheap calipers so I’ve got a pair of fully functioning spare brakes.

For note I have 3 different brakes on my mountain bikes and I think I prefer my Magura MT2’s c/w 180mm rotors to my XT m8000’s, Sram Level TL on my other bikes and the cheap basic Shimano brakes they replaced. I’ve liked all the above brakes, had minimal problems and the pad’s have lasted well. The Magura’s are not the most powerful or best looking (look pretty cheap as the level is nearly all plastic) but they are powerful enough , lever shape is nice (they’re the short ones) and I like the way the brakes power builds up add to the fact that I got them off Amazon for something like £80 a pair what’s not to like?

I’ve got some old Saint M820s in a box somewhere. They have the old style two finger lever and you had to remove the reservoir cover to bleed them, which was a pain in the arse

I’m going to try swapping the levers for some XT 785 levers I also have lying around.

Has anyone tried Saint calipers of this vintage with XT levers?

Or zee calipers?

After a quick Google I’ve ended up doing the same cycle I seem to find myself doing whenever something Shimano wears out.

1. Brakes stop working properly due to a leaky caliper.

2. Look for – and fail – to find spare parts to repair the caliper so decide to replace the caliper.

3. Start looking at the cheap Shimano calipers but as they’re only a couple of quid cheaper than deore I think about getting deore but hang on! Deore is only a couple of quid less than slx but slx is only a couple of quid less that xt. Ooh! I can get 4-pot zee calipers for not much more, think of all that power!

4. You realise that you can buy a whole deore brake for the price of a zee caliper so you buy a pair as they’re so cheap and you get new levers and hoses too!

5. One day after looking in your spares box you conclude that instead of buying and dumping 3-4 sets of Shimano brakes you could have had a beautiful British made pair of hopes for less money than all the Shimano brakes put together and just replaced the seals and bearings when required. F##k!

Don’t even get me started on chainsets (even more so on road ones) where it works out cheaper buying a new chainset than buying the chainring/s and bottom bracket – the only parts you need to replace – separately. Damn you Shimano and your cheap online groupsets! (I am really a bit of a Shimano fan boy but they’re online pricing is sporadic).

Turns out they are M810 calipers I have in a box. I’ll give it a try anyway. Swapping the calipers is just a case of undoing the banjo bolts and then bleeding them. Should be pretty obvious if its going to work or not.

I know eventually I’m just going to go out and buy some new 4 pot SLX or XT brakes but I might as well fart about in the garage first.