Think what you will, I agree with hambinis opinions due to my experience of constant niggles and problems with not only the crank but the full sram rival group set.

I’ve always been confused how a £700 group can be found on a low end £1000+ bike, I can’t help but think that the business model is that once you’ve got a sram hydro groupset your stuck with it and you will be stuck with the cost of buying new replacements at full RRP which is far cheaper than replacing all of it for a decent (Shimano) groupset

I will never be a beta tester for sram again, bit of research suggests a fair few unhappy customers.

Having the hope crankset is the main reason i won’t buy any more hope items, i learnt to stop buying the brakes a while ago, but buying a bike that had the cranks has made it a simple choice not to buy anything hope ever again.

The hope crank is great looking especially with the direct mount ring and works fine when fitted…..but I can contest to the major faffage of installation as I did mine on my new frame yesterday. I’ve had the cranks for about a year and have had them off about 4 times now. The first time I fitted them myself and they came loose so got a shop to fit them. The chainring broke so I re-fitted them myself and it was fine then took them off due to a knackered BB…(frickin hope one is shite). The torque you have to give the main wedge bolt is insane, plus the Welly you need to get the crank on the spline in the first place. Then there’s the play adjustment ring which is crap and on my new frame only has about half a turn before it’s against the crank arm. And I’ve rounded off 4 of the tiny grub screws that pinch it up (these are made of actual cheese). Getting the bloody things off is a faff as well. So on this basis I’m in the market for some new shimano,s next time as like stated above they work fine and are a piece of piss to fit.

Rounding off hollowtech II bolts purely comes down to bad tools or technique

Not ‘purely’ those two options. It can also come down to seized bolts too. Crank bolts can have a pretty hard life, in terms of spray etc. I’ve serviced a few mates’ bikes and the bolts can be pretty solid by the time I get to them (with decent tools).

But other than needing constant replacement and making replacement prone to expensive errors if you weren’t paying close attention, yeah, loved it 😉

Ha! If you think Octablink was bad, what about… ISIS? Arguably the worst bottom bracket design imaginable with its oversized spindle and consequently teeny tiny little ball bearings doomed to fail within weeks. Remember all the ‘special’ uprated ISIS BBs that were supposed to last months rather than weeks, but didn’t. The rare, hard to find SKF ones, which were almost useable. Dear god, just a horrible. horrible thing. What were they thinking?

Ha! If you think Octablink was bad, what about… ISIS?

I think I mentioned it in the same post 😀

Yeah, worst BB design ever (though at least the crank splines were more robust than Octalink ones). My wife’s bike must have the only remaining specimen in the world, it’s been in there for about 15 years, although it’s not really done loads of miles 🙂

I’ve got Look BB65 on one bike which sometimes seems like genius but the tools required to remove and reinstall are ridiculous (not changed bearings yet so that fun awaits). I also needed to buy a special 14 (fourteen!) mm Allen key for a set of campag cranks. For me the big S and HT2 just works with no faff

The HT II is by far the most elegant solutions to installing a crank closely followed by the Race Face system that had those big chunky splines and that was effectively self extracting.

I’d rather rely on the RF splines for ham footedness but the Shimano is so simple.

I think I mentioned it in the same post 😀

I’ve been subliminally conditioned to block out any reference to ISIS. The whole Islamic State thing was problematic for me, I couldn’t work out why a failed bottom bracket standard was dominating international news 🙁

EEwings are pretty simple

Bet they look grand on the Santa Cruz Ebike 🤪

Shimano is favoured here too.

I’m never going with SRAM BB’s (or other groupset) again if I can help it, Octalink was better in many ways than square taper, but those tiny bearings…

I’m ignoring pushfit, I’ve got one again and I’m waiting to see how quickly it dies…

Ah yes, I remember fitting an SKF ISIS BB, lasted a good year. Weighed a ton though, but better than the 4 week life expectancy of the OEM Race Face.

Edit – actually I did have a broken shoulder for a third of that year, which probably helped the BB life.

Yes, I also favour Shimano’s HT2 crank fastening – if only it could be combined with Race Face’s Cinch chainring attachment I would die a happy man.

Think what you will, I agree with hambinis opinions

Just because he’s a dickhead doesn’t make him wrong about Sram stuff being a bit flimsy.

I can only think of one part where Sram have had the edge over Shimano on durability, and that’s their GX-lever cassette.

Was chatting to a (mostly road bike) mechanic the other day and he said that he likes the SRAM cranks best because he never sees any spline damage on them, but he sees a few HT2 cranks with stripped splines.

Chapaking – 12spd Shimano stuff has spline on chainrings kinda like they had on M950 and M740 series stuff in the 90s but single ring now obviously.

Chapaking – 12spd Shimano stuff has spline on chainrings

Sounds good.

Part of the satisfaction of the RF system is that you use a cassette tool to nip the chainring up IIRC.

Tool comes with the cranks.

Though (despite brief dalliances with Isis and Octalink, which were both completely shit) I still haven’t progressed past square taper on MTBs because they just work so well.

I have just gone back to square taper for first time in over 10 years (changed to a steel track frame and modern cranks look too bulky and sadly that matters to me)

Have to say a square taper is not any harder to fit than an HT 2 and time will tell if my memories of the BBs lasting a lot longer are true

Have to say a square taper is not any harder to fit than an HT 2 and time will tell if my memories of the BBs lasting a lot longer are true

I remember the old square-taper BBs lasting almost forever, but they were also brutally heavy as I believe the axles were nearly always solid due to the nature of the square taper fit. Also, much like the GXP cranks, they are just held together with brute force (i.e. a very tight bolt), which just feels an inelegant solution. I’ve also found that OEM HT2 bearings (even the cheaper grade ones) last absolutely ages, and are cheap as chips.

I’m enjoying this thread, but (with the possible exception of RF), I remain convinced that no other manufacturer has got close to HT2 for usability vs price vs vs weight vs reliability.

My Middleburn ones are pretty nice, but a little more difficult to install than HT2 – the preload adjuster can be a bit difficult to work with – gets stuck a lot.

I’ve got both SRAM (Force1 GXP) and Shimano (XTR/DA) both of which use CK BBs of various types. Both are very easy to install and seem to work just fine. The only problem I’ve had is when using a Force1 crankset on my Niner’s Biocentric BB and finding that the end plates on the BB changed the BB width just a little. The result was that you couldn’t tighten the SRAM crank fully as the force on the bearing created tremendous drag. It could only be fixed by removing one of the caps and adding a thinner spacer. The Shimano DA9000 crank worked fine.

As per bearing design(which I know far too much about…)

GxP is horse shite . .one floating one locked bearing..that industrial machinery bearing design type of territory..

Square taper ..indestructible ..at the cost of weight and easy fitting but needs less precise frame alignment and Frankely just works..

Ht2..its balanced ..easy to fit and adjust..they are axial bearing making side loading neccisary to take up play..but they are cheap and not noted so far..can REPLACE square taper without anything other then bb facing on the frame in preperation(can just put them in but misalignment may be a problem..)..

Hope ..no idea not read into designs but one two piece cranks without pinch bolts are kind of annoying and done up STUPIDLY tight almost as much as wheel bolts on a car..

Pah! Properly fitted cotter pin cranks are the go…

no idea not read into designs but one two piece cranks without pinch bolts are kind of annoying and done up STUPIDLY tight almost as much as wheel bolts on a car..

Try doing up the bolts holding the hub itself on.

It was something silly like a 1.3/4 socket, with a 3/4 drive, and a torque so high I just calculated it from my bodyweight on a length of scaffold pole because it was way beyond any torque wrench I had!

I remember the old square-taper BBs lasting almost forever, but they were also brutally heavy as I believe the axles were nearly always solid due to the nature of the square taper fit.

The Token square taper I just fitted was 210 grams BUT the cranks arms were 80 grams lighter than the Hollowtech 105 arms (which are pretty light for two piece) so net gain was around 30 grams.

I was actually expecting it to be much more than that. If the BB does end up lasting for many years I will be happy with the ‘backward’ change.

Square taper ..indestructible

I’m no destroyer of equipment, but I’ve managed to break 2 square taper BBs. I always thought the HT2 solution was pretty elegant really wider, stronger, fitted any frame (at the time), and simple to install for the home mechanic

I can’t argue with it, I love Shimano cranks.

Needs 1 very simple, cheap, easy to find tool and a hex key. If you’re not a complete oaf it’s almost impossible to do it wrong. (I’ve done it wrong).

People used to moan about HTII BBs dying, well maybe, I’d generally get a year out of one, and yeah if I had to nitpick it seems as if they went from perfect to seized over-night some how, but you knew it didn’t matter what bike shop you went into, they’d have one, on the shelf, even if they charged RRP for them, they were still cheap and it took about 10 mins to change.

My DUB one is still a mystery to me, they seemed hard to find, at least a year ago when I first got it, the outer thing fell off so I can’t actually remove my crank unless I can find another one, or borrow a friends and for some reason I need a breaker bar to get it off and an automotive torque wrench to replace it – also, I believe “because SRAM” my BB tool won’t fit it, I need another, which I can’t seem to find.

Were these push-fit BBs of some description, by any chance?

No, normal English threaded cups. It was a bit weird. Still, a bit academic now.

I have found HT2 needs checking after a ride or two even if you’re using a torque wrench for the pinch bolts.

GXP is fine from an installation point of view, it’s just you end up doing it about ten times as often as HT2.

I’m a big HT2 fan, though I think the new xtr cranks moved to another system which doesn’t please me, I hope there isn’t trickle down to the rest of the range.

My M8100 cranks (which are exactly the same design as the M9100 – XTR – cranks, just slightly different materials and finish) just turned up. They are completely standard HT2, identical to the M9000 XTR ones that are coming off.

The shimano 2-bolt’s definitely the best I’ve ever used… But it does have one massive issue, which is the preloading- it’s dependent on not being overtightened, but overtightening is basically what mountain bikers do best. I mean, people go out and buy metal tools for the end bolt because they don’t think the plastic one is strong enough, even though it’s basically just fingertight.

So for those reasons I reckon anything with an actual torque value has an advantage, when put in the hands of hamfisted gorillas, ie us.

It’s mentioned up there somewhere but Shimano took (and refined) the Bullseye design. They had to wait for Bullseyes U.S patent from the late 70’s to expire before they could release it. Definitely my favourite design!

HT2 fan here. No special tools needed (you can do up the plastic preload by hand if it really comes to it), bolts are at a sensible torque. If you can’t use a torque wrench as standard L shaped Allen key will be close enough.

Yes, it’s great to be able to do stuff properly at home but if it can be done in a campsite on holiday with a minimal toolkit all the better.

Add one of these your travel toolkit and you can do the BB as well

New Hope still seems to need 50nM torque and the tiny bolt on the preload head looks likely to be an issue.

The old Raceface relied on a few plastic spacers (that inevitably went missing when you removed the cranks).

My experiences of Square taper weren’t good. BB’s were a nightmare to get out IME and very easy for someone to knacker the crank by riding it when loose.

it does have one massive issue, which is the preloading- it’s dependent on not being overtightened, but overtightening is basically what mountain bikers do best

Err, never overtightened any of the dozens of HT2 cranks I’ve fitted and never seen anyone else suffering from doing it.

Hardly a “massive issue”.

Square taper ..indestructible ..at the cost of weight and easy fitting but needs less precise frame alignment and Frankely just works..

Until the cranks seize on solid, or the threads strip.

Err, never overtightened any of the dozens of HT2 cranks I’ve fitted and never seen anyone else suffering from doing it.

Which is the reason the preload cap is plastic – the teeth mash before you can really overload the bearings.

It just seems nice and intuitive to me, no need for a torque wrench on the bolts either.

My M8100 cranks (which are exactly the same design as the M9100 – XTR – cranks, just slightly different materials and finish) just turned up. They are completely standard HT2, identical to the M9000 XTR ones that are coming off.

FC-M9100 XTR is not the same

https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/ev/EV-FC-M9100-4378A.pdf
https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/dm/DM-MAFC002-05-ENG.pdf

Square taper ..indestructible

Not really, easy to snap landing drops and the alloy square in the cranks always wallowed out.

Upgrading from square to isis was great for me, stopped snapping BB axles and wearing out crank arms. Gigapipe BBs lasted ok for me.

Hollowtech is great, it just works, affordable, strong, reasonable weight. Also caters for slight differences in frame widths eg 67.5 or 68.5 rather than 68mm dead on.

chakaping

Subscriber

Err, never overtightened any of the dozens of HT2 cranks I’ve fitted and never seen anyone else suffering from doing it.

It’s the main reason some people go through bottom brackets like mad.

But of course you won’t see any downsides of overtightening if you don’t overtighten- that’s hardly the point.

FC-M9100 XTR is not the same

So it isn’t! Well, the M8100 in my hand certainly is the same as the old M9000, so this particular innovation hasn’t trickled down. To be fair to me, I’m yet to see a pair of these in the flesh as the early supply problems and somewhat sturdy pricing has made it a pretty rare sight.

I’m actually surprised they’ve done this as it presumably increases the Q-factor of the cranks by a few mm, something that is not usually desirable. Wonder if the crank profile also changed to compensate?

45-55 Nm seems like a fair amount of torque, though I can’t remember how much the FSA BB30 cranks on my last bike needed.

I wonder why they changed it?