Dangerous cyclists face life in prison.

Define around pedestrians? On a shared path or cycling along a road when a pedestrian decides to step out in front?

Yeah probably. You should be aware that a pedestrian could walk out in front of you so yes, slow down or give a wider berth when there are peds within the kind of distance you could hit them. Clearly if they are on the other side of the road as you draw level they aren’t going to be physically able to intersect with your path, but if they are walking along near the kerb and you are 0.5m away then they could.

I think Land Rovers should be banned – they seem to have been in the press recently (including this week) for crashing into Schools and killing kids, including a baby in a church car park. Where is the outcry ?

Yeah probably. You should be aware that a pedestrian could walk out in front of you so yes, slow down or give a wider berth when there are peds within the kind of distance you could hit them. Clearly if they are on the other side of the road as you draw level they aren’t going to be physically able to intersect with your path, but if they are walking along near the kerb and you are 0.5m away then they could.

Another good argument for adopting a proper primary position.

I think Land Rovers should be banned – they seem to have been in the press recently (including this week) for crashing into Schools and killing kids, including a baby in a church car park. Where is the outcry ?

Presumably there have been court cases? What were the outcomes?

What would make it your fault though? No reflectors on your pedals? Hands not covering the brakes? Travelling at 25mph in a 20 zone with no means of knowing your exact speed? This law needs some proper scrutiny.

No idea. Presumably that would need to be tested in court. Are there rigid guidelines defining reckless or dangerous driving? But… I guess what would make it “your fault” is if you ride into someone and it isn’t their fault (e.g. they didn’t step out in front of you). IANAL.

Anyway, if you don’t drive or ride recklesly or dangerously you aren’t going to have a problem are you?

The problem will be if the CPS & the jury interpret the actions of the cyclist unduly harshly & in a way they wouldn’t with a car driver.

should I have got a softer punishment than someone who was being a dick in a car?

Yes.

You need both licencing and training to drive a car, why? Becasue they are inherently dangerous, without training and being able to demonstrate understanding of road signs and proper handling you are going to either kill yourself or another road user or a pedestrian. End of discussion. Dos the law expect the same level of training and licencing for cyclists? No. Why? Because the vast vast vast amount of accidents involving a pedestrian  and cyclist are going to be bruising or cuts at worst and for he infinitesimally small number of occasions when it’s not, can be decided on an individual basis, and with the expectation that in most cases it won’t be fatal, and that you’d need to be either supremely unlucky or reckless to kill some-one unlike car users for whom causing the death of others has become so normalised that there is a standard punishment tariff.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cv26j5n5wj3o

Shoe horning on one of hundreds of examples but if you can be drunk and coked up and be out after 3 years for good behaviour it’s barely worth worrying about the sentence even if you did ever kill someone

You should be aware that a pedestrian could walk out in front of you so yes, slow down or give a wider berth when there are peds within the kind of distance you could hit them

Ok, so we have covered walk out but what if they run out? As has happened to me. Luckily it was light and I had enough of a view of them to be dubious about their actions but at night it would have been a tad more iffy.

Going back to using same standards for cars as for cyclists. What do you think would happen to the driver in that case? Would it get anything beyond local news and no charge since the pedestrian was blamed.

Not all involve pedestrians but consider the Charlie Alliston case
Killed someone whilst riding an illegal bike – 18 months

Robert Harris killed 4 in an illegal car – £180 & 6 points

Andrew Turner killed one and seriously injured 2 in an illegal car – £400 & 250hrs unpaid work

— Titsy (@TitsyTheDwarf) May 16, 2024

A few quick examples of driver vs cyclist sentences….

^ those above examples

did the illegality of the car have any bearing on the accident? Ie had (for example) the car failed its mot due to its engine light being on rather than its brakes being defective?

either way, driving sentences tend to be ridiculously lenient.

Ok, so we have covered walk out but what if they run out?

This is the case for driving cars as well.  Someone can run straight out in front of you and you can’t do anything about it – I’ve seen this happen – or you could be looking at your phone and mow someone down when you should have been paying attention.

Sir Chris Boardman putting things nicely into perspective, once again.

I always call him SIR Chris even though he’s not. Why not is a mystery. Maybe he’s been offered a Knighthood and politely declined.

But on a serious note – Boardman’s mother was killed by a driver who was on his phone and distracted when she fell from her bike. Male driver got 30 weeks in prison (I’ve no idea how much of that time was actually spent in custody). So this nonsense regarding cyclists murdering pedestrians must really wear his patience.

did the illegality of the car have any bearing on the accident? Ie had (for example) the car failed its mot due to its engine light being on rather than its brakes being defective?

I’m not that convinced that Charlie Alliston would not have attempted to swerve around Kim Briggs when she stepped into the road, even had he not removed the front brake from his bike.

I think there’s a common view that living with having killed someone is probably more than enough punishment for many drivers, with dangerously careless driving commonly normalised. Cyclists are also commonly considered a menace; only last week I had the misfortune of a conversation in Cambridge (of all places) with someone who genuinely saw Auriol Grey as the victim and Celia Ward as an aggressor whose family cynically played her status in society for sympathy.

This is the case for driving cars as well

I know which is the problem with your initial statement about cyclists shouldnt go fast enough to kill someone. It holds up in some cases eg shared paths but not in others. In the former though you have the bonus of when people are sensible and use the road instead you then get the anti cyclist mob ranting about cyclists not using “cycle paths” and demanding a law be passed to make them do so.

Going back to the proposed law if we take the most recent case the police could have charged with careless or dangerous cycling. That they didnt do so suggests this new law wouldnt have been applied either unless they have lower standards for “death by” vs the basic offence.

Great idea. How can anyone object. If you kill or seriously injure someone by your stupidity then you should pay. My only objection is that death should mean life. Real life.

If, as people are saying, few people are killed by cyclists then there is nowt to worry about., Comparison with motorists is stupid and purely a red herring .

Comparison with motorists is stupid and purely a red herring .

It isn’t, it’s the absolute crux of the whole discussion!

1700 people a year are killed on Britain’s roads, 5 people per day. The overwhelming majority by cars. That includes pedestrians on the pavement, it includes cyclists in so-called cycle lanes. If that kind of carnage was happening on any other transport system, it’d be shut down instantly.

And the majority of those drivers never see the inside of a jail cell. Suspended sentences, fines, points, maybe a short driving ban…

And now that a single person has been killed by a cyclist, there are calls for 14-year jail terms.

That’s what people are arguing about. This whole “let’s treat killer cyclists the same way as drivers” – hell if it means a slap on the wrist and a small fine, there’d be no objection!

The objection is once again that cyclists are being demonised while motorists, killing 5 people per day…well that problem is being ignored.

Great idea. How can anyone object. If you kill or seriously injure someone by your stupidity then you should pay. My only objection is that death should mean life. Real life.

If, as people are saying, few people are killed by cyclists then there is nowt to worry about., Comparison with motorists is stupid and purely a red herring .

commonsenseinnit.

.

The implication in this article is that the cyclist was at fault, but nothing was investigated, yet the woman who died was yet again crossing the road presumably onto the path of the cyclist.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjr7rkgrpldo

Your presumption?

Great idea. How can anyone object. If you kill or seriously injure someone by your stupidity then you should pay. My only objection is that death should mean life. Real life.

Yep, everything is always so black and white isn’t it.  Look how many dangerous drivers (driver doing things deliberately – speeding, overtaking inappropriately, using phone etc,.) are not actually prosecuted for dangerous driving but seem to mostly get away with careless driving.

As a cyclist how would it be proved that I was dangerously cycling rather than just being careless?

Is cycling at 24mph in a 20mph zone (which I wouldn’t know as don’t have a speedo) dangerous or careless, if you were driving at 24mph in a 20mph is that dangerous and if you killed someone would you be prosecuted for dangerous driving because of your speed – I am going to say no you wouldn’t.

Telegraph banner is a beauty! https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cw4ry74dkejo

’52mph in a 20mph zone – Lycra lout cyclists creating death traps all over Britain’

And even better – the picture is of a mountain bike. Good effort by that cyclist I say 😂

Culture war pricks.

Another cyclist killed in Manchester yesterday (Salford). No National outcry and not even in local news

 if you were driving at 24mph in a 20mph is that dangerous and if you killed someone would you be prosecuted for dangerous driving because of your speed – I am going to say no you wouldn’t.

Rational thinking has gone out of the window here. I think you would end up in prison.

Just look what happened to the Just Stop Oil protesters. It’s become political and part of the culture war.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2023/dec/15/just-stop-oil-activist-is-first-to-be-jailed-under-new-uk-protest-law

If the thread title was “Dangerous drivers face life in prison” (leaving aside the fact that the max sentence wasn’t life) this wouldn’t be a thread, we’d all be behind it.

Whether the new  legislation is needed on top of existing laws is a separate issue, but dangerous people need punishing whether they are in a car or on a bike. We either have principles about equality or we don’t.

And while we can all point to cases where drivers have escaped jail after killing someone,  there’s plenty where they do get jail. The cycling media tends only to report the former. Culture wars work both ways. Take a step back and don’t get sucked in by either side.

All this hand wringing over a stupid clickbait law.

People are homeless.

Child poverty increasing.

The health services are collapsing.

Kids are killing each other.

Car drivers get away with aggressive and dangerous behavior.

The best thing that the Tory turkey can do is legislate for something that will get them some kudos amongst the drooling idiots who support them.

I despair!

’52mph in a 20mph zone – Lycra lout cyclists creating death traps all over Britain’

I just had a look a couple of segments along the London Embankment. Some impressive efforts there! Strava up to its tricks though – i.e. average speed greater than maximum speed!

’52mph in a 20mph zone – Lycra lout cyclists creating death traps all over Britain’

If you ignore the actual article itself

*122k people using that section of cycleway

*35 clubs using Richmand Park as a “Velodrome”

Can we use that to argue for better facilities?  That’s 6x more cyclists on that stretch than licensed black cabs in London.

I just had a look a couple of segments along the London Embankment. Some impressive efforts there!

Many years ago, there was a whole load of noise on social media, later picked up by the Telegraph etc when cabbies first discovered that Strava exists and they cherry picked a few segments as an indication of how lawless we all were. Unfortunately, all the speeds came from pro riders on the Tour of Britain or RideLondon or the Olympics.

They’d just looked for the highest recorded speed, screenshot the top ten and posted it without thinking why they were all on the same date or doing any research into who the riders were or even taking a second to think “I’ve never seen anyone doing 40mph down the Strand, is this correct…” 😂

Absolute classic case of having “data” but no clue as to what it’s showing or how to critically think about it.

“Causing death by careless, or inconsiderate, driving”

What might constitute death by “inconsiderate” driving or cycling?

These lawyers have an answer (and examples), although it’s for the general “without due care and attention, or without reasonable consideration” rather than the “death by”:

(b) Inconsiderate Driving (driving without reasonable consideration for other persons using the road or place)

The test for inconsiderate driving is much simpler: if your driving can be said to “inconvenience” other road users, you are likely to be convicted for inconsiderate driving.

Havent you heard all the big houses are full

Mark Harper, or IDS (Or any of the other legislators who back this) are hereby invited to accompany me on any time f my nightly dog walks, so that they can see where the real danger is.

Tonight, whilst waiting to cross the road, a car pulled out of the road opposite, without really checking, so did see or hear the motorbike approaching at a frightening speed. The motorbike swerved, accelerated to overtake the car, pulling a wheelie ats they did so, then accelerated off around the corner.

Whilst this was happening, another car, merrily drove along the pavement behind me, to get from it’s parking space on the verge, by the owners garden fence, to the nearest point where the kerb is low enough to access the road – 100 yards away – because parking on the road, a whole 20 feet from their fence is just too much to ask.

Now, given a slightly less fortuitous situation, my dog and I, standing patiently, waiting to cross the road, and making required observations, would have been at the centre of a very nasty 3 vehicle pileup.

When the coast was clear, I crossed the road, then waited to cross a side road, as I don’t trust that anybody is up with HWC yet (it’s only been a little under 28 months), to observe a car turning In and missing the corner quite badly – because they were steering with one hand whilst holding their phone in the other.

All of this in the space of about 2 minutes, in a residential area that is very clear marked as 30mph at each of the 3 entry points.

But, no … cyclists are a menace to be dealt with robustly.

🙄

I hereby acknowledge my poor use of ‘car’ instead of ‘driver’, in my earlier post.

Maybe IDS can pass a law making that an offence…

so that they can see where the real danger is.

You seem to be supporting the war on the poor innocent motorists.

Next you will be suggesting that we use speed cameras to victimise the poor drivers when, as we all know, only cyclists speed.

What we really need is a new offence of causing death by dangerous government.

35 clubs using Richmand Park as a “Velodrome”

Count me as *absolutely horrified* that people use a park for recreation.

😜

It may not be related. But… 🤔

I’ve just been shouted at for being on a bike. I was heading downhill in 20mph zone, supermarket entrance and two zebra crossings, and was told shouted at that I should have pulled over to let the two cars behind speed faster than the 20mph+ I was doing.

Now I know there’s more than enough numpties out there. But you do have to wonder if this week’s attempt at vote grabbing headlines is giving succor to the numpties.

But you do have to wonder if this week’s attempt at vote grabbing headlines is giving succor to the numpties.

It distracts the numpties from the disaster that their government has become.

But you do have to wonder if this week’s attempt at vote grabbing headlines isn giving succor to the numpties.

Oh it will be.
There’ll be deaths and injuries attributable to this latest round of culture war nonsense.

I hate to mention the B word but it’s the same way that Brexit basically legitimised racist rhetoric and attacks. Suddenly the gammons found their hitherto mildly repressed racism to be acceptable on a political level.

Same here. I bet this weekend will see a statistically measurable increase in close passes and abuse. ☹️