D-Day 😢

The events of the second world war have shaped the world and Europe in particular more than almost any other historical event. They continue to resonate and affect geopolitics hugely. The failure of D-Day in particular would likely lead to a very different and far worse outcome for everyone in Europe.

As shown by many examples on this thread, lots of us have relatives who fought and died in WW2 and personal memories of those who were lucky enough to survive it.

For all of these reasons I think it is entirely appropriate to continue to remember and commemorate.

It’s possible to feel awed by the immensity of the undertaking, gratitude and respect for the participants, sorrow for the death and suffering on both sides without being some kind of jingoistic nationalist knuckle dragger.

I don’t think it’s time to ‘move on’ just yet.

Like I said earlier, the emphasis in most countries is different to the UK’s.

I agree. The approach of other European countries’ is more towards “wasn’t it awful”, whereas the UK has unfortunate tendency to approach it as “weren’t we great”.

I think there is a gulf of a difference between those who are reflecting on the great sacrifices made by many, just a few generations ago, where no family in the UK was left untouched, and for which i am immensely proud of my grandad, my gran (who lost her first husband, a Lancaster rear gunner weeks after they were married, and who refused to marry my grandad until the war was over as she did not want to lose a second) and her actions as a nurse, and the actions of the misplaced jingo-ism, flag pole raising, “2 world wars and 1 world cup” mob. You can be one without being the other.

This is of course absolutely true though.

D Day to me is quite simple, it marked the end of a period of horror that resulted in the below figures.

Battle Deaths 15,000,000
Battle Wounded 25,000,000
Civilian Deaths 45,000,000

To achieve this men and women did extraordinary acts of bravery. These people were our grandfathers, boys who previously were not soldiers, just the average man/boy/girl/woman on the street called up to give their life for the country we have today.

Unfortunately mankind is greedy and egotistical. War and suffering will always be present. But this doesn’t mean we shouldn’t acknowledge the bravery and suffering of those involved.

To ask about whether Nazism would have resulted in the iphone is ignorant and disrepectful. A simple reading of the idealogy would give a better understanding if those values would have led to a world you would have wanted to inhabit. While it is very easy to make comments about the type of nation England may have become since the war, I’m pretty sure we didn’t want to be in a world where the way to overcome social divisions was to do so by adopting a racial purity.

Maybe for those folks who think we shouldn’t be remembering D Day should have a read of this https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/victims-of-the-nazi-era-nazi-racial-ideology

I find it odd that people are proud of things that they themselves did not do, and the only link they have to the people that did do it is the island they were born on.

Some of us had a professional link to those men and that connection endowed us with the responsibility that their names, deeds & sacrifice are remembered and honoured.

Others were gifted the joy of friendship with some of them.

Proud, maybe not. Grateful, absolutely.

As shown by many examples on this thread, lots of us have relatives who fought and died in WW2 and personal memories of those who were lucky enough to survive it.

My grandfather wasn’t even in the military during the war.  He was in the Merchant Navy.  All the while my Grandmother was helping build ships during the day and getting bombed regularly during the night.

They definitely never had a D-Day but pretty much their entire time during the war was spent waiting to get sunk or bombed at any moment.  All while getting on with the job at hand.

I see it in the UK a lot where the commemorable events are military victories.  The emphasis is very much on militariarism which I don’t find to be a healthy way to remember wars.

Grateful, absolutely.

Well put. This absolute minimum we owe them is to remember them and what they went though.

I don’t think that we remember, I think that we mythologize and glorify.

It’s also difficult to challenge this, because to do so is profoundly uncomfortable, and, understandably, is interpreted by many as an attack on the memory of their relatives.

I think that there’s good reason that so many were traumatised by their memories of the war that they were uncomfortable with lionisation and just wanted to put it behind them.

Proud, maybe not. Grateful, absolutely.

Yes, absolutely.

I think that we mythologize and glorify.

A few people do. Some of our press and media seem to feel they have to.

But in the most part, no, most people remember and reflect.

It can’t be underestimated the strength of feeling, that the people of Normandy have towards D-Day.

Myself (ex-squaddie) and 3 friends (1 who is a current CDR and CO of HMS……) got the overnight ferry to Cherbourg and over 2 days, made our way to Ouistreham via some of the cemeteries and D-Day sites. It’s something I’ve always wanted to do, and having my mate (who had just finished his Higher and Command staff course) giving an in depth running commentary of the history was humbling.

One thing more than the others stands out the most.

We finished at Pegasus bridge cafe. Being military geeks, we spent a lot of time looking at the walls inside. Madam (legend in her own right) came over to us for a chat. When she realised I was ex and my mate was still serving, our money was no good. Instead, the value of every round, and there were a few, was put in to the charity tin. She sat with us for 2 hrs, trying to convince my mate to bring HMS…. Up the Caen canal for the 80th. He told her it wouldn’t fit but she insisted because “we managed to get Brittania and a type 43 up it!”

My family was lucky with WW2 my dad was just too young to be called up. Both grandfathers were too old. That said my maternal grandfather lost 3 brothers in WW1.

I still find it almost uncanny how little many of the WW2 generation talked about their war. Like at the end of the documentary Jeremy Clarkson did about VC medals in particular the one his father in law was awarded afterArnhem. His daughter didn’t know he was a VC holder until after his death. Never mentioned it.

Victoria Cross: Robert Cain

I don’t think that we remember, I think that we mythologize and glorify.

have you actually seen any of the D-Day commemoration coverage on the BBC? It is literally the opposite of that. Lots of time spent on interviews with veterans, pretty much all saying how shit it was.

One thing I will never understand is how our country is simplified to statement like “whereas the UK has unfortunate tendency to approach it as “weren’t we great”.

That is just untrue. Great things were carried out by people in this country and others. They should be remembered and celebrated for what they stopped.

Not everyone in the UK is a football fan. But travel to other countries around the world, spend long enough there and you will see the exact same type of person that you refer to as “the UK”.

The war was awful, it massively impacted this country but the impact to other countries far more so. We absolutely should be celebrating the actions performed and what those actions achieved. If that feels like “weren’t we great” then so be it. Those people were great. Those young boys being shipped over for D Day to be mowed down by machine guns, yes they were great.

Like at the end of the documentary Jeremy Clarkson did about VC medals in particular the one his father in law was awarded afterArnhem. His daughter didn’t know he was a VC holder until after his death. Never mentioned it.

That documentary has been in my mind since this topic arrived – not a fan of Clarkson but that’s a brilliant, sobering account, and a fantastic documentary. Looks like you can access it from that link – if you haven’t seen it, I recommend it.

There such a huge gulf of understanding between those wishing to respectfully show gratitude and mourn loss, and those who think they are just mythologising and glorifying that I don’t think it’s possible to reconcile the two. This genuinely saddens me.

 If that feels like “weren’t we great” then so be it. Those people were great. Those young boys being shipped over for D Day to be mowed down by machine guns, yes they were great.

They absolutely were. My issue is that “weren’t they great” is too easily morphed into “weren’t we great”, and the reflected glory that some people take from it to justify or bolster a sense of exceptionalism or patriotic pride.

You’re right, obviously, those kind of people exist everywhere, but few countries in Europe bang on* about WW2 as much as we do.

And before anyone says it, I don’t mean today’s stuff is ‘banging on about WW2’, I know it isn’t. I mean more generally.

There such a huge gulf of understanding between those wishing to respectfully show gratitude and mourn loss, and those who think they are just mythologising and glorifying that I don’t think it’s possible to reconcile the two. This genuinely saddens me.

I think it’s the oversimplification of everything to a binary, black or white position. A minority of folk (to be fair) on both sides will insist that their position is the right one and everyone else’s is wrong and must be mocked or removed.

It’s how wars start. Of all days, let’s accept that other views are possible and need respecting.

We finished at Pegasus bridge cafe. Being military geeks, we spent a lot of time looking at the walls inside. Madam (legend in her own right) came over to us for a chat.

Ah, Madam Arlette Gondrée, an absolute force of nature and staunch advocate of ‘her veterans’.

Had the pleasure and privilege of being walked through the battle for Pegasus Bridge by these two fine gentleman many moons ago.

Geoff Barkway and Peter Boyle, the crew of No. 3 Glider.

I have never seen a group of rowdy soldiers so entirely focussed and locked in since.

They say you should never meet your heroes, but I did and they were everything I hoped they would be, those are memories I treasure.

I guess the one thing I am proud of is that I got to stand in the shadow of these giants and it was the highest honour of my career.

A minority of folk (to be fair) on both

Sadly often the way because everyone else is getting on with doing it quietly.

Always the way innit, the loudest voices dominate the airwaves and the purpose & point is then swallowed up in the noise.

There such a huge gulf of understanding between those wishing to respectfully show gratitude and mourn loss, and those who think they are just mythologising and glorifying that I don’t think it’s possible to reconcile the two. This genuinely saddens me.

Honestly, I could turn that round and say that there’s a huge gulf of understanding between those who wish to question how we remember events like this, and those that think they are belittling the sacrifices made by so many. This saddens me, as I don’t wish to belittle anything.

I think there’s a huge amount of violent agreement on this thread TBH.

I think it’s the oversimplification of everything to a binary, black or white position. A minority of folk (to be fair) on both sides will insist that their position is the right one and everyone else’s is wrong and must be mocked or removed.

For the avoidance of doubt, I am absolutely not doing that.  My opinion doesn’t trump anyone else’s and I’m not mocking anyone. I didn’t explain myself very well. I suppose I am just so surprised by how badly genuine and respectful motivations for commemorating D-Day are misconstrued by some, that I just couldn’t find the words to try to bridge that gulf in understanding. I recognise that is as much a failing on my behalf as anyone else’s.

chrismac

I see Charles decided to go dressed up as a despot dictator from a banana republic complete with fake medals from mummy.

I can only imagine your outrage if he was drinking a RedBull at the same time. 😉

Maybe there’s something in being pretty much destroyed as a nation that builds a mindset of “that was awful, let’s work hard to build it back better” against ours of “ooh, aren’t we brilliant, let’s carry on as before and assume we’ll always be brilliant”.

Think being able to build back (with help of the Marshall Plan) from scratch rather than muddling on with a  make do and mend approach. Germany’s infrastructure was mostly in ruins, so anything that was built was new and therefore more modern.

and the Germans have won many more World Cups…

Imagine if in the next game against England the German fans started chanting

“No World Wars and five World Cups!”

alpinFree Member
chrismac

I see Charles decided to go dressed up as a despot dictator from a banana republic complete with fake medals from mummy.
I can only imagine your outrage if he was drinking a RedBull at the same time. 😉

lol!!!! Thanks for the laugh 😀😀

I guess the one thing I am proud of is that I got to stand in the shadow of these giants and it was the highest honour of my career.

Words that were never said about my grandfather.

This is probably going to come across as sour grapes but if you’re talking about people who should be remembered and commemorated I think the merchant navy personell should be right up there.

There was no glory in what they did though, just a boring everyday job with a very high mortality rate, so they are largely forgotten.

I don’t know. It just feels the way we lionise certain participants in the war while ignoring others suggests that maybe we learned the wrong lessons.

This is not to say I think the merchant navy people should have events and parades and what not. It’s more the amount of plaudits, attention, and glorification bestowed on people who fought makes me uncomfortable.

It feels too much like militarism and it feels like it comes at the expense of remembering the civilians who contributed to the war not to mention the innocent victims of the war.

It makes me feel uncomfortable is all I’m saying but I understand it’s very important for others.

FWIW, the Merchant Navy are definitely represented at the commemorations at the Senotaph, and there’s a memorial at Tower Hill

https://www.cwgc.org/visit-us/find-cemeteries-memorials/cemetery-details/90002/tower-hill-memorial/

This is probably going to come across as sour grapes but if you’re talking about people who should be remembered and commemorated I think the merchant navy personell should be right up there.

Anyone whose opinion is worth anything would hold what the merchant navy did in the highest esteem. Without them there would have been nothing left to defend. The men who manned the Atlantic and Russian convoys can stand as absolute equals to anyone

FWIW, the Merchant Navy are definitely represented at the commemorations at the Senotaph, and there’s a memorial at Tower Hill

As soon as as you bring up the Merchant Navy the reaction is always, ‘Well of course they were heroes and there are memorials around…’ but I think it’s pretty clear the appetite for remembering them is far less than for the fighting men.

I’m much more comfortable with people remembering the Merchant Navy because it feels more like the way we should be remembering the war.  Sort of, ‘Oh, that seems really shit and terrifying.  In fact, I don’t want to think about this anymore.’

As opposed to, ‘That seems really shit and terrifying.  These people were heroes and I want to have parades and events to honour them’.

And it’s very very seldom you see parades and events for the victims of war.

Like I said, for me the priorities feel wrong but I absolutely accept others feels differently.

As a (former) soldier my affinity is to my regimental family first and foremost. From day one of basic training the history of those who went before us is an integral part of the education and a significant contributor in building the esprit de corps that is critical to allow us to carry out our roles and to bind us to something bigger than the individual.

I have no point of reference to a merchant sailor, an RAF airman, an SOE agent, or a civilian under siege. I don’t even really have points of reference for other units in the Army, but I do to those who have a strong connection to my unit. I also have a first hand experience of loss, so all those who faced risk and mortal peril will have my respect, but there is a hierarchy for me and as i’ve been clear, it will always start those who earned the battle honours on our Guidon through blood and sacrifice.

Your issue lays with those who have failed their forebears and not advocated for them. Not the ones who have and do.

I will make zero apologies for the failure of others to honour their corner appropriately.

No, it’s for us all to remember these people. There should be no “not my people” attitude to rememberance. My Grandad on my Mother’s side was also Merchant Navy. He was scarred by it in many ways. He also saw death, loss and horrors… and lived and worked under such threat solidly for years. It is understandable and correct that the focus today is on all who were lost or damaged in the landings in Normandy, but more widely our remembrance should be about all who died, served, suffered, and lost people as part of war.

One of the reasons why the Merchant Navy perhaps aren’t as celebrated as they should be is that there is no ‘event’ to focus on. Their service spanned the entire war whereas D-Day is very much a standout occasion. Even the Battle of Britain was relatively short lived & has a ‘Day’ you can commemorate. The Battle of the Atlantic has no well known special day  & is geographically diffuse. Thus the participants tend to be much less well known & this isn’t just the civilians. You have to have read a bit of military history to know who Captain Johnnie Walker was.  Most people will have heard of Air Chief Marshal Dowding, but very few of Admiral Max Horton.

Ultimately there are bits of history which lend themselves to having a higher public profile than others (the Burma campaign is largely forgotten for example), it isn’t just a military vs civilian thing.

For those who feel the merchant navy were forgotten (and coming from Portsmouth, there is still a huge rivalry with Southampton, as the merchant navy felt for a long time the Royal Navy left them unprotected often), you have to feel for Bomber Command, highest casualties of any service in the war, a 1 in 8 chance of not coming back every time you took off, and then following the Dresden raids (which were horrific) vilified by even Winston Churchill, and no formal Bomber Command memorial until 2012, they were the forgotten for a long time.

I think that anyone that has taken the time to read up on the history of the war, has the utmost respect for the merchant navy, they were a lifeline, and the UK would of struggled without that lifeline to the US, Canada and other countries bringing in supplies.

Apart from Merchant Navy Day, 3rd Sept. The Anniversary of the start of WW2. Sadly only ratified in 2000. Taken far too long to enshrine the contribution of many that’s for sure.

No, it’s for us all to remember these people.

So we’re telling people how and when, is it November already?

But in true STW style, right-fighting rules the day. Maybe I do need to make apologies for thinking of those who I knew, how wrong of me to show loyalty to the men who shaped my service, cap badge and career.

Apart from Merchant Navy Day, 3rd Sept. The Anniversary of the start of WW2.

Sadly only ratified in 2000.

Kind of proves my point though. It isn’t terribly well known (& I believe there may be a Battle of the Atlantic day 27th May?)  and its an arbitrary date picked from a campaign which lasted from 1939 to 1945

So we’re telling people how and when, is it November already?

I’m not telling anyone to do anything. I’m imploring everyone to widen their remembrance more generally beyond those that served in the military.

Maybe I do need to make apologies for thinking of those who I knew, how wrong of me to show loyalty to the men who shaped my service, cap badge and career.

No apologies needed. No one said you shouldn’t act that way.

Maybe I do need to make apologies for thinking of those who I knew, how wrong of me to show loyalty to the men who shaped my service, cap badge and career.

Absolutely no apologies needed.

Your issue lays with those who have failed their forebears and not advocated for them. Not the ones who have and do.

Do you honestly believe that the reason people are so keen to commemorate D-Day (one among many commemorations) while Merchant Navy day passes each year with little acknowledgement is because nobody cared enough about their colleagues, friends, and relatives to advocate for them?

I’m imploring everyone to widen their remembrance more generally beyond those that served in the military.

That seems to make the assumption that people don’t already do that. I’ve marched at the cenotaph alongside the Bevin boys, London Transport veterans, merchant navy and many more. No one on that parade looks down on anyone else. And I’m pretty sure that most also consider the victims of strategic bombing, the holocaust and all deaths when they remember. I certainly do.

I was replying to this…

Your issue lays with those who have failed their forebears and not advocated for them.

It is for all of us to remember these people. It should not be down to their descendants. Many died without the chance to have a family.

I’m from a military family. My father served in the RAF, and was in the Queen’s Colour Squadron, so I’ve seen enough ceremonial and commemoration events to know that civil bodies are represented.