Forum menu
Yes very grateful to all who stood up and defended our country in a very difficult time.
... the UK was bombed heavily and potentially was going to be invaded [probably stopped by the Battle of Britain].
The British population as a whole held out and fought back.
Germany could not have invaded for as long as we had naval supremacy.
It's this sort of "we held out and fought back" narrative that makes me uneasy.
I’m getting that he seems to think the only consequences of a German victory in WW2 would be the potential development of consumer electronics. I think that’s disrespectful to those who died in the war or were a victim of genocide.
Looking at how other countries commemorate wars always looks very different to how the UK does it.
Never travel to the US.....
The UK never ‘lost’ in the way all other European countries did.
Whilst i don't agree with how we gained it, we lost an empire following the war. We lost of hundreds of thousands of young men from a single generation and many more people at home in the Blitz. But we were lucky in that we as an island were far more difficult to invade, and that due to the Battle of Britain, the axis powers never gained the control of the skies that would of then led to that invasion, they had barges lining up ready to ferry troops across at a time when our army was still understrength.
FInancially we did not win either, we were still paying back the US for "land lease" payments until 2006.....
Curious as to whether (and how!) a hypothetical German victory 80 years ago would really have prevented the invention of the iPhone and widespread adoption of central heating and double glazing.
(etc etc)
It might not have done, but the demographics of those allowed to enjoy them might have been a bit different. If you think that matters.
Germany could not have invaded for as long as we had naval supremacy.
It’s this sort of “we held out and fought back” narrative that makes me uneasy.
I totally agree that they could not of successfully invaded and the Royal Navy would of destroyed their fleet of Rhine river barges and passenger ferries.
However, I'm not sure why that narrative would make you uneasy?
We did hold out but we did it with the help of the British Empire.
Financially we did not win either,
Let's not forget that two of the greatest economic success stories of the late 20th century were Germany and Japan. Maybe there's something in being pretty much destroyed as a nation that builds a mindset of "that was awful, let's work hard to build it back better" against ours of "ooh, aren't we brilliant, let's carry on as before and assume we'll always be brilliant".
I totally agree that they could not of successfully invaded and the Royal Navy would of destroyed their fleet of Rhine river barges and passenger ferries.
However, I’m not sure why that narrative would make you uneasy?
We did hold out but we did it with the help of the British Empire.
Apologies, I think I should have more clearly delineated them as two seperate points. The BoB being what prevented an invasion is just inaccurate but that's ok, it doesn't make me uneasy - it's the jingoistic "we held out and fought back" meme I dislike.
just trying to figure out what you're actually trying to say. That it is wrong for English people to be proud of what previous generations accomplished? Why? And why have you singled out England? Show me any country that doesn't have a large, vocal patriotic element of the population in relation to historical accomplishments, etc. Or even any football team!Are you doing it on purpose now?
It’s this sort of “we held out and fought back” narrative that makes me uneasy.
Are you saying that we should have rolled over or that you're uneasy with a statement of fact?
The BoB being what prevented an invasion is just inaccurate but that’s ok
1) I did say "probably"
2) Britannica
My father was a schoolboy in England and on D-Day cycled out to the local airfield to look at the gliders, only to find that they'd all gone. Meanwhile my father in law was a schoolboy in Caen, France. He'd watched the fireworks in the early morning and then got on his bicycle and headed to the beaches to see what was going on!!! He made it back safely, but then was bombed out and spent months camping out in local woods with his mother.......
That it is wrong for English people to be proud of what previous generations accomplished?
I find it odd that people are proud of things that they themselves did not do, and the only link they have to the people that did do it is the island they were born on. I guess it's my general lack of understanding of patriotism, I struggle with it as a concept.
And why have you singled out England?
Because, and I'm happy to be told differently, it's a more prominent trope in England than in Scotland/Wales/NI. I don't see fans from those nations singing "two world wars and one world cup", for instance.
I find it odd that people are proud of things that they themselves did not do
I find that strange! Are you not proud of, for example, athletes from GB who do well?
(I'm proud of my childrens' accomplishments.... is that odd?)
I don’t see fans from those nations singing “two world wars and one world cup”, for instance
Have you never met a Welsh or Scottish rugby fan? 😉
I see Charles decided to go dressed up as a despot dictator from a banana republic complete with fake medals from mummy. Does he do it to deliberately offend all those who faught and earnt their rank and medals or does he not think that way. A suit would have been far more appropriate. It’s not as if Biden or macron wear military uniform even tthough they are actually commander in chief of their forces who can give orders
I don’t see fans from those nations singing “two world wars and one world cup”, for instance.
Because they haven't won a (football) World Cup which that chant relates to.
Think the link they have is also to the people in their families that took part and lived through those times. Also, pride in a single, yet critical, historical achievement doesn't have to be conflated with patriotism. You can identify with suffering and hardship carried out on your behalf (however distant in the past, which D-Day isn't), and at the same time not be patriotic as a whole. One thing doesn't automatically lead to the other even though the achievements of WW2 have been used like that...
I think there is a clear difference between well placed patriotism (on a day like today)and nationalism.
Never travel to the US…..
The Pearl Harbor Memorial is a model of how we can remember and contemplate what has gone before.
My old neighbour Steve who died right at the end of 2019 and landed in Normandy with 46 Royal Marine Commando. If you live between Brighton and Eastbourne you may notice a number 12 bus named after him. Stephen Barnwell. He was a great character and much missed. I did my sdw in a day on what would have been his 100th birthday as I knew there was no way I'd quit if things got tough if I was doing it to commemorate that
Really? Are you not proud of, for example, athletes from GB who do well?
(I’m proud of my childrens’ accomplishments…. is that odd?)
For the athletes, am I pleased for them? Absolutely. Am I impressed by their dedication, skill, perseverance, ability etc? Absolutely. Am I moved by their joy? Absolutely (I cry like a baby at that stuff). Am I proud? Well, no, because I had nothing to do with what they did.
To be fair though, I get that when there's a personal element or connection then I get it. Like you with your children, say, or I'll admit that I feel proud when MrsIHN finishes some mental ultramarathon. It's when people feel proud about the accomplishments of complete strangers that I don't understand.
And the real problem comes when that pride is used to bolster a narrative of national glory, which is all too easy.
The Pearl Harbor Memorial is model of how we can remember and contemplate what has gone before.
Exactly. The US Cemetery above Omaha beach is an incredibly powerful place - the nationality of those buried there has almost nothing to do with what it stands for.
I came away feeling very humbled.
And the real problem comes when that pride is used to bolster a narrative of national glory,
Yet again I think you're missing the point of today - it's not about England or the UK.
Because they haven’t won a (football) World Cup which that chant relates to.
yeah, but the English didn't win the world wars (at least, that is an incredible oversimplification of what happened, and who actually wins a war anyway), and the Germans have won many more World Cups...
Are you saying that we should have rolled over or that you’re uneasy with a statement of fact?
I'm uneasy with the tribal chest-thumping about a nation of 70 million people over something that only a tiny percentage of people alive today had any part in. "We" had no part in it in any meaningful sense - our ancestors did but, as has been pointed out several times on this thread, very few of them ever wanted to talk about what they went through. The UK "held out" because a quirk of geography makes it very hard to invade - if France or Poland or Russia were island nations 20 miles off into the Atlantic instead of having land borders with the Third Reich, they'd very likely be talking about how they "held out and fought back" too.
Edit - sorry, forgot the BoB invasion bit. All the navy would have had to do was charge destroyers up and down the channel - they wouldn't have need to waste ammunition on river barges under tow wallowing about on the Channel, the wash alone would have scuppered them.
My Grandad went ashore at Arromanches / Gold on D+6 then went through France and Germany until the end.
I've got a picture of him in his uniform and his medal collection. He looks like a little boy, because he was.
He never mentioned it until the 40th anniversary, when he went back and received an award in France for still being alive.
Today is a day for sombre reflection. They did something unimaginably brave to stop something unimaginably evil.
I'll have a think about him and his mates. It doesn't mean as much to my kids because they never met him.
and the Germans have won many more World Cups…
But they don't make up for the atrocities performed by the Nazis.
r Russia were island nations 20 miles off into the Atlantic instead of having land borders with the Third Reich, they’d very likely be talking about how they “held out and fought back” too.
The 'Germans' only ever accessed less than 10% of Russia so I don't think you can include them.
I’m uneasy with the tribal chest-thumping about a nation of 70 million people over something that only a tiny percentage of people alive today had any part in.
All the navy would have had to do was charge destroyers up and down the channel
While being sunk by the air superiority that German would have had if it had not been for the BoB. Ships are great until they're sunk.
(The RN wouldn't have stood a chance if they tried to defend the S coast with no air cover)
That it is wrong for English people to be proud of what previous generations accomplished?
If they are led to believe it was just the "English" that fought and pushed back the forces of Nazism, then yes. We can be proud of what was accomplished. We should not pretend that it was English people standing alone, or that it was because of some unique trait that the people here had that was missing elsewhere. Also, we, along with many other nations, should also be ashamed that we ever let things get to that point, and learn from that. There is lots to remember. Today the focus should absolutely be on the lives lost and ruined by brave people doing what they had to do... but that should not form the basis of English exceptionalism.
But they don’t make up for the atrocities performed by the Nazis.
You've lost me now.
I’m uneasy with the tribal chest-thumping about a nation of 70 million people over something that only a tiny percentage of people alive today had any part in
I think there is a gulf of a difference between those who are reflecting on the great sacrifices made by many, just a few generations ago, where no family in the UK was left untouched, and for which i am immensely proud of my grandad, my gran (who lost her first husband, a Lancaster rear gunner weeks after they were married, and who refused to marry my grandad until the war was over as she did not want to lose a second) and her actions as a nurse, and the actions of the misplaced jingo-ism, flag pole raising, "2 world wars and 1 world cup" mob. You can be one without being the other.
And the countries of France, Poland and Russia, all hold days and times of remembrance for their war dead?
What the polish achieved was remarkable against the odds.
The ‘Germans’ only ever accessed less than 10% of Russia so I don’t think you can include them.
No problem, consider them unincluded. 🙂
See previous
What you said was..
The British population as a whole held out and fought back.
While being sunk by the, then, German air superiority. Ships are great until they’re sunk.
How do they do that, do you think? Bombs? Torpedos? Mines?
I think there is a gulf of a difference between those who are reflecting on the great sacrifices made by many, just a few generations ago, where no family in the UK was left untouched, and for which i am immensely proud of my grandad, my gran (who lost her first husband, a Lancaster rear gunner weeks after they were married, and who refused to marry my grandad until the war was over as she did not want to lose a second) and her actions as a nurse, and the actions of the misplaced jingo-ism, flag pole raising, “2 world wars and 1 world cup” mob. You can be one without being the other.
100% agree.
I was riding back to the ferry at Caen last summer and had some spare time so I rode along to Juno beach and then rode east along the coast. My grandfather was in the medical corps and landed there a few days after D-Day before moving through France and Belgium. I didn't realise it was that particular beach until I called home to say where I was and asked about his time there. Seems common that his generation didn't talk much about it all. Tbh it floors me coming across reminders of WW1 and 2 in N France or the Vercors, you're cycle touring w/o a care in the world then you see an area with 100s or 1000s of white crosses and read the ages of many of them. Puts your place in the world in perspective.
When we are not governed by dangerous men who might take us down that path again?
A very good answer.
And the countries of France, Poland and Russia, all hold days and times of remembrance for their war dead?
Like I said earlier, the emphasis in most countries is different to the UK's.
With the possible exception of Russia, particularly in recent years.
The events of the second world war have shaped the world and Europe in particular more than almost any other historical event. They continue to resonate and affect geopolitics hugely. The failure of D-Day in particular would likely lead to a very different and far worse outcome for everyone in Europe.
As shown by many examples on this thread, lots of us have relatives who fought and died in WW2 and personal memories of those who were lucky enough to survive it.
For all of these reasons I think it is entirely appropriate to continue to remember and commemorate.
It's possible to feel awed by the immensity of the undertaking, gratitude and respect for the participants, sorrow for the death and suffering on both sides without being some kind of jingoistic nationalist knuckle dragger.
I don't think it's time to 'move on' just yet.
Like I said earlier, the emphasis in most countries is different to the UK’s.
I agree. The approach of other European countries' is more towards "wasn't it awful", whereas the UK has unfortunate tendency to approach it as "weren't we great".
I think there is a gulf of a difference between those who are reflecting on the great sacrifices made by many, just a few generations ago, where no family in the UK was left untouched, and for which i am immensely proud of my grandad, my gran (who lost her first husband, a Lancaster rear gunner weeks after they were married, and who refused to marry my grandad until the war was over as she did not want to lose a second) and her actions as a nurse, and the actions of the misplaced jingo-ism, flag pole raising, “2 world wars and 1 world cup” mob. You can be one without being the other.
This is of course absolutely true though.
D Day to me is quite simple, it marked the end of a period of horror that resulted in the below figures.
Battle Deaths 15,000,000
Battle Wounded 25,000,000
Civilian Deaths 45,000,000
To achieve this men and women did extraordinary acts of bravery. These people were our grandfathers, boys who previously were not soldiers, just the average man/boy/girl/woman on the street called up to give their life for the country we have today.
Unfortunately mankind is greedy and egotistical. War and suffering will always be present. But this doesn't mean we shouldn't acknowledge the bravery and suffering of those involved.
To ask about whether Nazism would have resulted in the iphone is ignorant and disrepectful. A simple reading of the idealogy would give a better understanding if those values would have led to a world you would have wanted to inhabit. While it is very easy to make comments about the type of nation England may have become since the war, I'm pretty sure we didn't want to be in a world where the way to overcome social divisions was to do so by adopting a racial purity.
Maybe for those folks who think we shouldn't be remembering D Day should have a read of this https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/victims-of-the-nazi-era-nazi-racial-ideology
I find it odd that people are proud of things that they themselves did not do, and the only link they have to the people that did do it is the island they were born on.
Some of us had a professional link to those men and that connection endowed us with the responsibility that their names, deeds & sacrifice are remembered and honoured.
Others were gifted the joy of friendship with some of them.
Proud, maybe not. Grateful, absolutely.
As shown by many examples on this thread, lots of us have relatives who fought and died in WW2 and personal memories of those who were lucky enough to survive it.
My grandfather wasn't even in the military during the war. He was in the Merchant Navy. All the while my Grandmother was helping build ships during the day and getting bombed regularly during the night.
They definitely never had a D-Day but pretty much their entire time during the war was spent waiting to get sunk or bombed at any moment. All while getting on with the job at hand.
I see it in the UK a lot where the commemorable events are military victories. The emphasis is very much on militariarism which I don't find to be a healthy way to remember wars.
I don't think that we remember, I think that we mythologize and glorify.
It's also difficult to challenge this, because to do so is profoundly uncomfortable, and, understandably, is interpreted by many as an attack on the memory of their relatives.
I think that there's good reason that so many were traumatised by their memories of the war that they were uncomfortable with lionisation and just wanted to put it behind them.
I think that we mythologize and glorify.
A few people do. Some of our press and media seem to feel they have to.
But in the most part, no, most people remember and reflect.
It can’t be underestimated the strength of feeling, that the people of Normandy have towards D-Day.
Myself (ex-squaddie) and 3 friends (1 who is a current CDR and CO of HMS……) got the overnight ferry to Cherbourg and over 2 days, made our way to Ouistreham via some of the cemeteries and D-Day sites. It’s something I’ve always wanted to do, and having my mate (who had just finished his Higher and Command staff course) giving an in depth running commentary of the history was humbling.
One thing more than the others stands out the most.
We finished at Pegasus bridge cafe. Being military geeks, we spent a lot of time looking at the walls inside. Madam (legend in her own right) came over to us for a chat. When she realised I was ex and my mate was still serving, our money was no good. Instead, the value of every round, and there were a few, was put in to the charity tin. She sat with us for 2 hrs, trying to convince my mate to bring HMS…. Up the Caen canal for the 80th. He told her it wouldn’t fit but she insisted because “we managed to get Brittania and a type 43 up it!”