D-Day 😢

I understand this may not resonate with some on here, and maybe it’s ‘cos I’m getting older, but holy crap it’s a touch dusty in here listening to the R2 coverage this morning 😢

Dad served in WW2 but was stationed in Africa and had no involvement in DD – he didn’t talk about the war much so I do my own searching.  On our way back from the Classic Le Mans back in  2018 we stopped at the American Cementry at Omaha beach which was pretty incredible.

Omaha Cemetry

We all owe them more than we can every really appreciate.

(makes all the stupid political bitching on here seem pretty pathetic)

Indeed very dusty here too.

I’m watching it on the BBC 1 channel. Sir Tom Jones has just sung and his voice (he’s 84 tomorrow) is utterly amazing.

It’s probably the last time this gathering will happen and we must not forget. My own grandpa would never talk about his time as a sergeant major in WW2. How I wished I’d had the courage to ask a few questions. He was my hero (not some overpaid goalscorer).

Edit: Last year we bike packed along the Northern French coast and visited Utah beach. The museum there is very good indeed. Hoping to visit the British one in the near future.

The stories are undoubtedly moving, and I can’t imagine the terror of running up a beach in full kit whilst your mates are dropping like flies around you, but, and I ask this with all compassion, at what point do we have to move on?

at what point do we have to move on?

We should never move on.

and I ask this with all compassion, at what point do we have to move on?

A fair question. When we are not governed by dangerous men who might take us down that path again?

at what point do we have to move on?

Given that Europe is in the middle of a territory based war, and far right/ nationalist parties are either in power in several countries, or are increasing their vote share in many others, I’d answer “Not Yet” to your question.

at what point do we have to move on?

Those who do not remember their past are condemned to repeat their mistakes.

-George Santayana

We should never move on.

I’m sorry, but that’s a pretty empty statement. I mean, we should remember what happens in war and we should make sure that nothing like that ever happens again, but the history of the world pretty clearly demonstrates that’s never going to happen.

And harking back to old victories or defeats and/or how things used to be is the classic ploy of those looking to spread division. It’s exactly how Putin is justifying the offensive in Ukraine, see also Make America Great Again, Take Back Control etc etc.

And harking back to old victories or defeats

If you think that today is about that then then you’re very wrong.

Given that Europe is in the middle of a territory based war, and far right/ nationalist parties are either in power in several countries, or are increasing their vote share in many others, I’d answer “Not Yet” to your question.

Given that we’ve been ‘not moving on’ for the past 80 years, and all that is still happening, I’d answer that ‘not moving on’ hasn’t worked that brilliantly.

Those who do not remember their past are condemned to repeat their mistakes.

I was waiting for that one. Mankind has been repeating it’s mistakes for thousands of years, a pithy one liner is not going to stop that.

If you think that today is about that then then you’re very wrong.

I don’t, I absolutely don’t, and apologies that I gave that impression.

We watched a bit of the bbc coverage last night and as James Holland said it’s more necessary than ever to see the importance of working together.

And harking back to old victories or defeats and/or how things used to be

Sure but today isn’t about that. Today is remembering that – as you said; imagine the terror of running up a beach in full kit whilst your mates are dropping like flies around you 

That’s what today is about, nothing more, nothing less, it’s just a day to remember those old boys. Like another poster I’ve been in Caen after a Le Mans, and got chatting to some old Canadians boys who had come over for a visit. One said to me “Even now, our money’s no good here, no one will let us pay for anything, hotel room, food, even coffee” just as the waitress  (a teenager) told them that they wouldn’t be paying for drinks.

 “Even now, our money’s no good here, no one will let us pay for anything, hotel room, food, even coffee” just as the waitress  (a teenager) told them that they wouldn’t be paying for drinks.

That is incredible.  We didn’t really appreciate what it meant to all other in occupied countries….. especially France.

I can’t comprehend what it must have been like on that day or any other. I have had the honour to speak to many vets over the years, from squaddies, Lancaster bomber pilots, airmen including one from the dam buster raids and navy one of which was captain of HMS Bulldog.

Some would talk freely, others would tell you part but most didn’t really say much.

Remembering is good.  Fetishising is not.  There is far far to much fetishising.

(makes all the stupid political bitching on here seem pretty pathetic)

Interesting that you want us to remember and yet you forget that there was a lot of ‘political bitching’ in the lead up to WW2.

A lot of the political bitching is people pointing out that we are seeing the far right on the rise (don’t let whatever Labour’s majority ends up being fool you, the overall direction is clear and not just in the UK) and people then disagree on how best to tackle this.  Or argue about if it is an issue at all.

One of my grandfathers was in North Africa, the other was captured at Dunkirk and spent almost all of the war in POW camp in Germany.

Neither of them ever really spoke about it, even to their wives, and took their experiences to their graves.

If I’d been older when they were still alive I’d probably pressed the matter but at the time it was made very clear to me that it was their decision, that these things were not up for discussion and to leave it at that.

Remembering is good.  Fetishising is not.  There is far far to much fetishising.

Absolutely. See, also “1940s Weekends”. The people are all “Ooh, didn’t the fellas look smart in their uniforms”, “ooh look, what a cool old Jeep”, “what time is the Spitfire flypast?”, conveniently forgetting that the uniforms, Jeeps and Spitfires were around because there was a war on where tens of millions of people were being killed, so using that as a reason to have a cup of tea and a piece of cake and having a little dance to Glenn Miller is pretty effing distasteful.

at what point do we have to move on?

wouldn’t even consider asking that question while the people who were actually there are still with us tbh. “Yeah sorry mate, you did great at the time, and sorry about all your mates who didn’t come home, but it was 80 years ago GET OVER IT”

Some would talk freely, others would tell you part but most didn’t really say much.

Yeah, I have read extensively about the two world wars and that is a common theme. An old girlfriend’s grandad was a Lancaster pilot in the war and he even had his medals and a picture of his plane on display, but he would never say a word about what he did.

“Yeah sorry mate, you did great at the time, and sorry about all your mates who didn’t come home, but it was 80 years ago GET OVER IT”

If you think that’s what I’m saying, you’ve misunderstood.

Was over there with parents in 94 about 2 months before the 50th anniversary.

Standing in the trenches above omaha is mind blowing.  Hard to imagine anyone got off the beaches.

And the silence in the omaha cemetery is eerie.

It is and will remain important to remember why it happened and to remember those who died.

I would do anything to stop my son having to do what they had to do 80 years ago.  So it remains incredibly important

WW2 – for better or worse is the founding myth of most of the Europe (or the world for that matter)  that we have today. from the shape of countries to what towns are in those countries to the way they developed after to war, to even how they came together after being literally split apart after it, and that was only what? 30 years ago?

While I don’t get re-enactors generally, or those that dress up like Nazis specifically, I do see the worth of keeping the vehicles and planes in working order, and I get why my Gran (for instance) chose to remember cake and Glen Miller over the doodlebug that went off at the end of her street.

Moving The discussion slightly, I’m disturbed by the frequent use of the word “Nazi” to describe axis and specifically German forces in some current media, I think it’s dangerous to promote to modern society .  Although we all know there was a strong national socialist ideology at the core of the German political and military leadership, most of the fallen opposing forces were young German soldiers plucked from daily life just like our own not aligned with those politics.

Despite the fact we were defending our country and solidarity we should remember them as millions of brave fallen victims in the same way we do our own IMHO.   Fighting at Normandy wasn’t fighting “Nazi’s”- it was fighting fellow soldiers on opposites sides albeit deployed for a strategy underpinned with different (and atrocious) politics to our own.  We are not innocent of similar within our history – colonialism for example.

TDLR – we should remember the fallen – all of them – and not proliferate historic division.  I’m remebering my Grandads that served today, but – specifically as I work for a German company – being very careful in my vocabulary.

Curious to know what moving on looks like? I think maybe the simplicity of the statement might open it up to being misconstrued negatively?

Outside of these commemorative events and general historical interest, isn’t it just back to migrants dying in the channel and dodgy political party funding? I don’t feel over-encumbered by the existence nor the practice of remembrance. If you think of WW1, now that it has passed from living memory it has taken a different shape, and there aren’t national events for specific campaigns anymore, it is focussed on armistice day and the all-encompassing remembrance day.

For my part, I think these commemorations are very valuable, and they all too quickly pass and some of the sentiments and lessons forgotten. ‘Moving on’ will happen organically in the near future when it passes out of living memory, and commemorative events reduce and play less and less a part in national life.

My Pa was in the merchant fleet and got sunk two (if not three) times (discharged at sea on his seaman’s ticket) and spent weeks rowing in the Atlantic, once to get to Newfoundland and once to the Gold Coast. Fortunately as a Thames lighterman he knew how to row. His response was to be a life-long socialist and supporter of CND (oddly his funeral was on 11.11 at 11am). My FiL Stanley Whalley was a pilot and when visiting where he trained in Arizona a US photographer made a video of him for YT which was a nice memorial.

Edit – as there were more replies before mine. Referring to @ Kryton57

Moving The discussion slightly, I’m disturbed by the frequent use of the word “Nazi” to describe axis and specifically German forces in some current media, I think…

I noticed this – but took it to mean they were trying to highlight a fight against an ideology rather than the nation of Germany. So the necessary fight was against fascism and the Nazis.

The victims in it all were the soldiers on both sides.

I do see the worth of keeping the vehicles and planes in working order,

Which is (genuinely)?

I get why my Gran (for instance) chose to remember cake and Glen Miller over the doodlebug that went off at the end of her street

Your Gran, absolutely. People who were born after the war, indeed, possibly, who’s parents and, increasingly, grandparents were born after the war, not so much.

Fighting at Normandy wasn’t fighting “Nazi’s”-

Well, yes and no. The Germans had units like 1st SS Panzer (Adolf Hitler) I SS Panzer, II SS Panzer, 2nd SS Panzer – Das Reich, 9th SS Panzer- Hohenstaffen, and 10th SS Panzer and so on and so on, that were separate from the regular Wehrmacht, so yes; they were fighting literal Nazis…Plus some of those units were responsible for some pretty awful war crimes 

So yes, remember all those who fell, but also remember why some of those men were there, and what they wanted.

at what point do we have to move on?

The world has moved on and is generally a much better place than it was in the 1940s, but we should remember that our comfortable lives are only possible because of the sacrifices of those people in the 1940s. They deserve to be remembered.

Which is (genuinely)?

Preserving history I think. While they can be kept in museums, and more and more of them will be eventually, to see them doing what they’re supposed to do brings it more to reality, even more so for things like tanks and so on. Feeling and seeing one of those Tigers in action is a much more viseral experience, and I think hammers the point about what these things are for home a bit more than seeing them gathering dust in a room.

But I understand the point you’re making, there’s a bit of a industry around this stuff now, and it can be a bit “Hoorah for our side” that can leave a bad taste I agree.

I took ages to post the above and missed following posts… The whole war fetishism argument is valid in a broad sense, but I think it’s also possible to respect and understand warfare, whilst also choosing to wear costumes of the era in a friendly tea-and-cake atmosphere. The two things can exist simultaneously, despite the confusing/oppositional optics. It’s not something i’d choose to do, but I don’t see them as the objects of misunderstanding the lessons of war. Those will be the people seeking and sowing division and pursuing political aims that lead to war. Also, it’s pretty poor timing to complain about war fetishism on the very day and on the very discussion of when the opposite is happening,

WW2 isn’t a founding myth, it was a historical reality. Remembrance of key WW2 events shouldn’t be conflated with the process of mythologising that no doubt does occur, but that isn’t pertinent to the topic of D-day or its commemoration. EDIT – I get what you mean though, there’s too many cross-posts for me to keep up…

WW2 isn’t a founding myth, it was a historical reality.

Of course, I meant in the sense of how post war, countries saw themselves and how it shaped their understanding, and the things they told themselves about what they did (or didn’t do) in war  not that it was in of itself a mythical thing.

Of course, I meant in the sense of how post war, countries saw themselves and how it shaped their understanding, and the things they told themselves about what they did (or didn’t do) in war  not that it was in of itself a mythical thing.

It’s definitely one of the fundamental reasons why the UK (and probably England more specifically) has overly-high opinion of itself.

I think it’s also possible to respect and understand warfare, whilst also choosing to wear costumes of the era in a friendly tea-and-cake atmosphere.

We’ll have to disagree there.

it’s pretty poor timing to complain about war fetishism on the very day and on the very discussion of when the opposite is happening,

I get that, and I totally get that today’s ceremonies are about remembering the very brutal realities and those that took part in them, and I have no wish to belittle any of that. But, it is also days like today that are bound to trigger the wider discussion, and if that discussion is a healthy one (which this one is, so far), then that is no bad thing.

I had the very large privilege of escorting veterans over to Arnhem and Pegasus Bridge in 94 and 99, something i will always remember and some of my best days in uniform. What struck me most about them, was how quiet and unassuming most where, they almost to a man stated that they had a job to do, and they got on and did it. Like most soldiers and forces guys, they didn’t really often think of the bigger picture, it was about looking after their mates and trying to come home safely.

I come from Portsmouth originally, and my own Grandad was with the RAOC and landed on Gold beach. He never said anything about the war until they opened the D-Day in Portsmouth, I took him not long after it opened and he came out with a few stories and talked about just how loud and confusing it was as they approached the beach in their landing craft, mostly from the bombardment from our own ships.

He donated a pair of Carl Zeiss binoculars that a german officer had given him, and it came out that he has played in a game of football against a german POW team in Munich after the surrender (he’d played for Brighton and Hove Albion before the war), and pulled out a photo.

I went over to Gold beach last year to scatter some of his ashes and will be back down in Portsmouth this weekend to see some of the celebrations.

Whatever you think, whatever your politics are, so much is owed to these men (and woman) that were our parents and grandparents.

Something else isn’t it, imagining all those young guys as part of this massive operation.

Films and whatever always show these soldiers as older-looking, like some of the BoB, Dunkirk or Saving Private Ryan who seem like they could be late 30s. But in reality a huge amount were barely out of their teens and had never travelled before. I can’t imagine being tasked with invading a continent when I was a snotty 18 year old. Barely know much about life now, let alone then.

My Grandad was not directly involved in the first landings, but he was a pilot flew supplies over in the following weeks. I still have his dogtags kicking around somewhere. I wish he was still around now so that I could talk about it – unlike some of the combat troops he was very happy to talk about it but I can barely remember it.

I am not particularly old but I do remember well being a young kid and thinking WW2 was “only” 50 years ago…now the end of it is almost 80 years ago. Be a century since D-Day before we all know it, and I wonder when this will start to become a similar type of history to say the Napoleonic Wars. World War I is starting to feel very old now.

Also, it’s pretty poor timing to complain about war fetishism on the very day and on the very discussion of when the opposite is happening,

Looking at how other countries commemorate wars always looks very different to how the UK does it.

In the UK there always seems to be an undercurrent of glorification and triumphalism.   The focus always seems to be on the individuals who fought (and won), on the equipment that was used, and not enough emphasis on the war as a whole and the events prior to the war itself.

It’s a bit difficult to properly explain, but I always feel like the UK puts emphasis on different parts of the war.  It’s understandable, I guess.

The UK never ‘lost’ in the way all other European countries did.  With Germany and France commemoration always seems to be tinged with shame although for very different reasons.  In the UK commemoration always seems to be tinged with pride.

https://enrs.eu/article/not-a-laughing-matter-different-cultures-of-the-second-world-war-remembrance-across-europe

Context is key and I feel many in the UK lose sight of the context far too easily.  And I don’t think pointing this out in is in any way disrespectful to veterans and those who died on D-day.

It’s definitely one of the fundamental reasons why the UK (and probably England more specifically) has overly-high opinion of itself.

how can a country have an opinion 🤔

how can a country have an opinion

Are you doing it on purpose now?

I think it should be remembered forever, but will scale back once the last of the veterans have gone.

Not sure about the 50 year old tubby looking cosplay Paras having a jolly old time trundling about Pegasus Bridge in their replica Jeeps.