cyclists vs the police

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  • cyclists vs the police
  • andyl
    Member

    Playing devils advocate here but two wrongs don’t make a right.

    What if by positioning him/herself in front of the cycle box he was obstructing a pedestrian crossing or sticking out into the junction causing an obstruction to traffic or forcing pedestrians to have to go round them into the way of traffic.

    Technically they have gone past the line that bounds the junction so have gone through a red light. Why not wait behind or to the side?

    Harsh I know but with no photos of the junction to judge what effect the cyclist being too far forward had on other factors I have to side with the rules. How much is just? Some peoples definition of just differ greatly depending on what they have to gain/lose.

    But I would like to know if the motorist was also stopped and fined.

    Premier Icon MSP
    Subscriber

    Did the police also fine the driver? If they did both that would be all fair and dandy.

    There seems to be a growing clamour to enforce rules on cyclists at a level that are routinely overlooked for motorists.

    brakes
    Member

    I do this all the time, whether there’s a cycle box or not, the intention being that the driver knows I’m there and can see me.
    I’d rather risk a fine than being squished.

    This sounds like a tick box initiative by the police where one cop is at the lights and radios another up the road to say “fine the nodder with the pink helmet for breach of pithy law”

    allthepies
    Member

    I would have expected the car driver to be fined and the cyclist to have positioned themselves behind the car.

    mrmo
    Member

    doesn’t surprise me in the least, and having read yesterdays story about one driver with 42 points and another with 36 and still driving, the continuous cases of cyclists being killed and drivers getting away with it. cf the couple in the audi whose killer was sentanced last week? with the penalties handed out for killing cyclists!

    Cyclists are scum, vermin, etc. won’t be long before the government introduce a bounty on every scalp presented to the courts. Read the comments from Pickles about how every town and every street should be opened up to cars, that nothing should be done to make towns a place to live, just a place to drive round.

    I do it all the time, in fact I completely ignore the stop lines if they’re 20+ meters back from the junction and just wait at the junction.

    Premier Icon scotroutes
    Subscriber

    Andy wrote:

    What if by positioning him/herself in front of the cycle box he was obstructing a pedestrian crossing or sticking out into the junction causing an obstruction to traffic or forcing pedestrians to have to go round them into the way of traffic.

    +1

    I’d like a few more details before I pass judgement.

    I’ve stopped beyond the Stop line (whether or not there’s a ASL) when I think it is safer to do so. However, I am also careful not to obstruct other road users.

    If you’re true cyclist, you wouldn’t bother stopping in the green box, infact you wouldnt bother stopping at all. You’d just carry straight on through the red light. People need to MTFU when it comes to stuff like this.

    Peyote
    Member

    Why didn’t the cyclist just cycle off? It’s not difficult to lose the Feds!

    Premier Icon notmyrealname
    Subscriber

    I can’t see what the cyclist is appealing against. He stopped past the ASL therefore he committed the offence in question.

    As someone’s already said, two wrongs don’t make a right.

    fourbanger
    Member

    A car stopped in an advanced cycle box isn’t an offense in itself. If they past the vehicle stop line on amber, the cyclist stop line becomes the stop line they should obey.

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    I can’t see what the cyclist is appealing against. He stopped past the ASL therefore he committed the offence in question.

    +1.

    He could have stopped behind the car. But then if the police were having a clampdown then why wasn’t the driver also stopped and fined?

    glupton1976
    Member

    Cyclist sounds like an absolute rocket.

    jamiep
    Member

    If one was (legitimately) filtering, one may not know until it was too late that the bike box was not free, which would be harsh to get a ticket for.

    Also, a car can legitimately be parked in a bike box if the solid line was straddled while on green so a blanket fine on the car might not be appropriate either.

    Premier Icon gofasterstripes
    Subscriber

    Peyote – Member
    Why didn’t the cyclist just cycle off? It’s not difficult to lose the Feds!

    That’s always been a bug in my brain. Not been chased, but I really would be surprised if they [bike or car] can keep up with a fit MTBer hurtling down stairs, dropping off obstructions etc etc etc.

    Anyone ever managed it?

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    Also, a car can legitimately be parked in a bike box

    It can be, but the linked article said it was there illegally so presumably it entered the box on amber or red.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    So half a story, no idea if the driver was stopped so hard to tell.

    In the end kids
    Don’t do the crime, if you can’t do the time.

    IanMunro
    Member

    Unless I’m missing something a car stopped in the cycle box, and the cyclist then chose to cycle past the car and stop in front of it to prove a point. The police are never going to take kindly to this just as they won’t take kindly to tailgating some middle lane hogger on the motorway to prove a point.

    Ultimately though I guess the problem is none of us were present, so it’s very difficult to come to some reasonable conclusion as to the rights or wrong of the case. The bloke might have a perfectly legitimate case, or he might be an antagonistic idiot, but I’ve no way of knowing really from that link

    Premier Icon notmyrealname
    Subscriber

    Also, a car can legitimately be parked in a bike box
    It can be, but the linked article said it was there illegally so presumably it entered the box on amber or red.

    So if the car was in the box illegally as it entered the box on an amber or red, surely the bike must also have passed the stop line on an amber or red so they were committing an offence.

    Does anyone actually know for certain that the car driver wasn’t fined for stopping In the box?

    fourbanger
    Member

    The car can cross the line on amber too if for instance it wasn’t possible to stop.

    fourbanger
    Member

    What the car did is irrelevant. It could have been there legally. What the cyclist did was against the Highway Code, end of. Why are they even fighting this?

    Premier Icon ibnchris
    Subscriber

    Actually, what the bike did was not against the Highway Code. They stopped in a safe place. Which in the incident was in front of the ASL

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    fourbanger wrote:

    What the car did is irrelevant. It could have been there legally. What the cyclist did was against the Highway Code, end of. Why are they even fighting this?

    cause weeer oppressed by the piiigs maaan or some drivel like that.

    Road users should be treated equally. Infringements should be punished.

    You can’t call for drivers to be hung and buggered while objecting to someone breaking traffic laws and then shock [insert expletive] horror getting done for it.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    ibnchris wrote:

    Actually, what the bike did was not against the Highway Code. They stopped in a safe place. Which in the incident was in front of the ASL

    You should step forward as the witness who obeserved it then 🙂

    IanMunro
    Member

    Does anyone actually know for certain that the car driver wasn’t fined for stopping In the box?

    He doesn’t know.
    https://twitter.com/alepax85

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    The car can cross the line on amber too if for instance it wasn’t possible to stop.

    Theoretically yes, but given the size of most ASLs it’d be interesting judgement to say “I couldn’t stop at that line safely, but I could stop safely at the line just 2 metres in front of it. ” 🙂

    fourbanger
    Member

    mikewsmith, a car stopping in a cycle box isn’t nescessarily an offense. This money would be better spent in other ways. Disappointed.

    brakes
    Member

    ooh, the contrary marys have arrived

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    Actually, what the bike did was not against the Highway Code.

    You mean apart from the bit that says “You MUST stop behind the white ‘Stop’ line across your side of the road unless the light is green.”

    Premier Icon irc
    Subscriber

    Surely the cyclist should have done a shoulder check for the police before breaking the law?. I’d never RLJ without a quick look to make sure there isn’t a cop within sight.

    If the cyclist broke the law in full sight of the police either because he didn’t see them or because he didn’t car they were there he hasn’t got a leg to stand on.

    Just like everyone drives at 70mph on the motorway when there is a traffic car about.

    Premier Icon irc
    Subscriber

    Theoretically yes, but given the size of most ASLs it’d be interesting judgement to say “I couldn’t stop at that line safely, but I could stop safely at the line just 2 metres in front of it. ”

    It is very unlikely but that doesn’t meet the beyond reasonable doubt threshold for a criminal charge.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    fourbanger wrote:

    mikewsmith, a car stopping in a cycle box isn’t nescessarily an offense. This money would be better spent in other ways. Disappointed.

    My other point is that nobody actually knows really we have a He Said She Said scenario going on with a case that sounds weaker than stuff that got women burnt as witches.

    Premier Icon ibnchris
    Subscriber

    A cyclist has been fined by the police for stopping just in front of the green cycle box because a car was in the box. Seems a little unreasonable to me.

    The Cyclists Defence Fund have decided to support a legal challenge to this fine because there appear to have been several cases of this happening. And so they hope that by fighting (and winning) this case they will be able to create a precedent that will stop any more of these spurious fines.

    If you’d like to read more about it and possibly even contribute towards the costs of the legal challenge please have a look here http://www.justgiving.com/CDF-unfairfines

    Premier Icon ibnchris
    Subscriber

    I think there is a wider issue here about police attitude towards cyclists. But clearly this is not something many of you have witnessed. Which is good to hear

    Premier Icon GrahamS
    Subscriber

    It is very unlikely but that doesn’t meet the beyond reasonable doubt threshold for a criminal charge.

    Indeed. But luckily in this case there appears to have been a police witness.

    Premier Icon irc
    Subscriber

    The CDF say

    n August, Alex Paxton was issued with a fixed penalty notice (FPN) for failing to stop behind the Advanced Stop Line (ASL) at a set of traffic lights. He did not stop behind the line (i.e. in the cycle box) because a car was illegally positioned in the box. For his own safety he positioned himself ahead of the car, past the white line. A police officer witnessed this incident and radioed a colleague, who stopped Alex further down the road and gave him the FPN. This officer had not seen the alleged offence, so could not assess the greater risk Alex would have been in had he positioned himself behind the white line, and therefore did not accept Alex’s justification of his actions.

    The Highway Code encourages cyclists to ‘use cycle routes, advanced stop lines, cycle boxes and toucan crossings unless at the time is it unsafe to do so’. Alex’s adoption of a safer position is therefore entirely justified.

    IMO the correct legal place to stop would have been behind the first car in line. In real life I might well do exactly what this cyclist did (after checking for the police) but if I was caught then that was the chance I took.

    Premier Icon mikewsmith
    Subscriber

    ibnchris – Member – Quote
    I think there is a wider issue here about police attitude towards cyclists. But clearly this is not something many of you have witnessed. Which is good to hear

    It’s also a bit of Cyclists attitude to the Police going on too.

    He did not stop behind the line (i.e. in the cycle box) because a car was illegally positioned in the box.

    So he rode around the car and plonked himself in front of the line?
    If you want to make a point just put the bike sideways in the box.

    He did not stop behind the line (i.e. in the cycle box) because a car was illegally positioned in the box.

    So, he should have stopped [u]legally[/u][/b] behind the car.

    Premier Icon D0NK
    Subscriber

    My other point is that nobody actually knows really we have a He Said She Said scenario

    presumably the police were watching the junction so know what happened, they also know whether the car driver was fined. So are they going to spill the beans?

    If driver illegally entered the ASL (after red/amber) and both were fined then no worries, if the driver was let off but cyclist wasn’t then yeah kick up a fuss.

    I’m aware this is like a kid stamping his feet and shouting “not fair!” but you can also view it as one rule for cars another for bikes – which already seems to be the case 🙁

    EDIT

    So, he should have stopped legally behind the car.

    what if they were side by side approaching the junction (with the lights on red) and the driver went straight into the ASL, driver has commited an offence and put cyclists in a dangerous position (if it isn’t dangerous WTF is the point of ASLs) so cyclist moves himself into a safer* position. Just suggesting another possibility.

    *possibly

    gwaelod
    Member

    what are you supposed to do if you filter up the side of a traffic queue only to find the ASL blocked?

Viewing 40 posts - 1 through 40 (of 67 total)

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