My view is that many urban bike riders see themselves as pedestrians on bikes. They treat red lights as a pedestrian would. I.e. You can ignore it if you wish and cross having made your own choice. Red lights are for things with engines.

Never thought of it like this but that does make sense of some of the behaviours in an urban environment.

Personally, I don’t jump them as I think people who ride bikes get a bad enough name as it is without playing to stereotypes.

Stop at red lights – unless I can see it’s clear to go through.

Much the same as when I’m in a car.

Seems pointless waiting to give traffic coming opposite direction the right of way – if there is no traffic there.

No need for traffic lights if we all take that view

Seeing more and more of this , what’s your thoughts on it ?

Unless you include your location then such a statement is meaningless. My experience is that in London, it’s common. In other cities, it happens and pretty much everywhere else, it’s non-existent.

Living here in semi-rural West Yorkshire, I can’t remember the last time I saw a cyclist blatantly jump a red light – it just doesn’t seem to happen that often. A big difference here is that there is a massive club cycling scene, but perhaps less of the “road warrior” types that you would see in London, so the culture is different. That’s not to say that there aren’t other friction points between cyclists and motorists, but red lights aren’t one of them.

If anyone would care to read RNPR Traffic Note 8 Proportion of Cyclists Who Violate Red Lights in London, please do, I am very proud of my contribution to it  (not really I was 25 at the time and it bored me to tears)..   it’s nearly 11 years old though. Jesus times flies when you are waiting at red lights

http://content.tfl.gov.uk/traffic-note-8-cycling-red-lights.pdf

• The majority of cyclists (84%) obey red traffic lights.
• Violation is not endemic, but 1 in 6 (16%) of cyclists do jump a red light, and at
this level may encourage more to do so in the future.
• A much greater number of men cycle during the morning and evening peaks.
When a comparison is made of the behaviour of male and female cyclists it
can be concluded that men are slightly more likely to violate red lights (17%
compared to 13%).
• In general cyclists who ride through red lights are more likely to do so whilst
travelling straight ahead at a junction. They are least likely to do so when
turning right.
• Red light violations are most common by cyclists travelling towards central
London in the morning, and away from central London in the evening.

Good points and they fit my observations of 10 yrs ago except the part I bolded…

The overall stats are in this just stats… because if you are a pedestrian or other road user who are using roads or crossing roads in this peak what you see are not the overall but what you see.

My observations at the time were not only did other cyclist jumping red lights influence future behaviour (as in the next day/week) but hugely influenced the behaviour right then.  This is no different from perfectly normal people who follow pack mentality at or after football matches as humans it’s easy to be carried around by a herd or pack whilst actually thinking we are being individuals.

If of the first 20 bikes 15 jump the red light then the chance of the 21st jumping it seems hugely increased, if the first 10 all stop then there seems far more chance most of the next 10 also stop.

Not to mention the swearing and cursing at the cyclists who ‘inconsiderately’ do stop…  and get in the way of those who are setting up to sprint the red light between cars coming in from the sides.

But we’d always have the higher ground and therefore smug factor!

That doesn’t actually help anyone though. In fact it’s exactly the kind of justification people give themselves for hating us.

Everyone should be on the same ground and treating each other like human beings.

In this country. In modern Britain. We’re objects. Just like a car.

“one in four (24 per cent) of motorists admit to having driven through a red light in the past 12 months — equivalent to 9.3 million motorists”

It depends how you read howsyourdad1’s statement as to how comparable yours is. I read it as either 1 in 6 cyclists will run red lights as a matter of course or (very similar but different) 1 in 6 bicycles approaching a red light will jump it rather than stop. I might be understanding it wrong but that is a very significantly higher number of incidences than your statistic. It is born out in reality too – spend any time in London and attempt to count the number of car and bikes you see red light jumping and I guarantee you will have used all your fingers and toes up a number of times before you see the first car/bus/lorry doing the same.

When it comes down to it, if you’re not going to abide by the laws of the road, you don’t really have any right to moan about others breaking the law, regardless of what vehicle they happen to be in/on.

From a public perception PoV this is equally valid because far more people are pedestrians and/or drive than cycle.

Ultimately though we/cyclists are sending conflicting messages .. because we want special rules for cyclists and perception is the people crying out that drivers shouldn’t be in such a hurry and a slightly longer commute is fine <span style=”text-decoration: underline;”>seem</span> to be the ones who think saving 5-10 minutes on a commute is of the upmost importance.

It depends how you read howsyourdad1’s statement as to how comparable yours is.

Absolutely correct, I was hoping the difference wouldn’t go unnoticed 🙂

Like most things, it’s a far more complex matter than most people and most statements acknowledge. For instance, much relates to opportunity to jump the light: for vehicles with more than two wheels, as soon as one person stops it normally prevents anyone else with more than two wheels from passing (explanation one, explanation two).

It is born out in reality too – spend any time in London and attempt to count the number of car and bikes you see red light jumping and I guarantee you will have used all your fingers and toes up a number of times before you see the first car/bus/lorry doing the same.

My perception of London traffic suggests roughly the same. But out here in Surrey and Hampshire my perception is that this situation tends to be reversed: partly because the ratio of motor vehicles to bicycles is quite different, but also because you don’t gain much if anything by going through red lights round here: there’s nowhere near such a density of them, so any savings are minimal in the context of any given journey. In fact in many cases there’s nothing to be gained by even filtering: you get through on the next change anyway.

On a slight tangent, here’s some bonus entertainment of motorists giving all motorists a bad name, throwing away their moral superiority, blah blah blah…

You know that red means stop, right guys? pic.twitter.com/XRfCCIccTA

— Metro (@MetroUK) January 10, 2018

I wasnt aware that cycling was about moral superiority. I thought it was a means of transportation and entertainment. Isnt religion, veganism or (more effectively) charitable work what is normally used to get a sense of moral superiority.

Are you for real? Very many cyclists float around in a haze of smug self-congratulatory moral superiority and piety. Many of the posts on fora like this are about cyclists’ moral superiority over lazy, unfit, polluting motorists.

Are you for real? Very many cyclists float around in a haze of smug self-congratulatory moral superiority and piety. Many of the posts on fora like this are about cyclists’ moral superiority over lazy, unfit, polluting motorists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_attribution_error

For me I stop at red lights and wait. Share the roads and all that. Also how can you expect drivers to give us some respect if we ignore the laws they should follow. In reality it may not work but I hope it does in some minor way.

Struggling to see if that red light complies with .s 36 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 and thats why everyone goes through it. I imagine those drivers were thinking the same, as they  all know Regulation 10 of the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002 specifies which signs come under s.36  .   So I guess we have to of course refer to  regulation  35.  But i’ll be damned  reg 35 provides for “Portable light signals for the control of vehicular traffic”. So as long as they comply with the requirements of Reg 35 they are enforceable under s. 36.

now, the elephant in the room is of course  the 1994 Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions , which gave portable temporary lights at road works and temporary road traffic control schemes equal validity with permanent lights and signs.

So i’ve answered my own question. Cheers.

.

Nights at home with you must be riveting! 😉

The country is suffering from an epidemic of people not facing up to their responsibilities.

But we’d always have the higher ground and therefore smug factor!

That doesn’t actually help anyone though. In fact it’s exactly the kind of justification people give themselves for hating us.

OK, smug factor isn’t the right thing to say, but I’d rather know i’m doing it correctly when others start the anti-cyclist bore-a-thon.

how can you expect drivers to give us some respect if we ignore the laws they should follow.

I really don’t think that is what leads to the lack of respect. A cyclist is just seen as an inconvenience to a lot of drivers, someone who is getting in their way.  Also, those same motorists are ignoring the laws they should follow too (mainly speeding laws)

For the record I commute through North London and in 11 years the proportion of red light jumpers is probably the same, but the volume has increased and the volume adjusts people’s perceptions of jumping getting worse.

I’ve noticed that jumpers favour pedestrian crossings more than junctions / crossroads probably because of the perceived danger to themselves.

I’ve tried to talk to jumpers about it and either get ignored, given an excuse or told that it’s none of my business. Not one person has talked about doing it with the aim of getting the rules changed…

but I’d rather know i’m doing it correctly when others start the anti-cyclist bore-a-thon.

I’m hardwired the same way, but the reality is that it’s purely an exercise of self-satisfaction: experience suggests that no-one whose mindset accepts the non-logic of “I saw some people on bikes jump a light therefore there is a group called cyclists and they all jump lights” will be swayed by the fact that you, I, or anyone else doesn’t. Not one. People who take that view simply cannot comprehend the total lack of connection (beyond just happening to have a bicycle) between two people who just happen to have bicycles. It’s presumably a curious combination of group attribution bias, confirmation bias and loss aversion: the third of these means people are scared to release the opinions they’ve formed through the first and cemented through the second.

On my commute there is a junction that I regularly jump.

Its a wide, busy crossroad and I’m turning right. Traffic lights are 2 phases for traffic and 1 phase for pedestrians.  The phasing is E/W traffic, N/S traffic, green man. I’m on the west side turning right to head south.

If the lights are red I stop ahead of the last car (sometimes past the ASL, sometime in it). I can see the green man opposite so I wait until the green man goes red, count to three and then go. This give me a head start and enough time to get across the junction before the light changes to green in my lane and the cars move off

I know this is breaking the law but I don’t care. I do it every time, its better for everyone.  Cars in the right hand lane behind don’t have a cyclist in front of them.  I don’t have to hang about in the junction hoping no one runs into me. I don’t have to nip across at the last minute because traffic crossing from the opposite direction has kept driving through the red light.

If there was a dedicated phase for turning right, then i’d wait, like I do at another junction on my commute – and all the other lights where I’m riding straight across the junction

 but the volume has increased

Perhaps time to adjust the lights/get rid of them/ make changes that suit all road users…!  I haven’t worked in london for 5 years now but old colleagues have told me people riding bikes  (dont like the word cyclists really) exceed MVs at many road junctons now.

I cycle through Chesterfield to get to work, during normal waking/ working hours when people and cars are around I stop at red lights. As I work shifts, when I’m heading in at 4.30am or home at 1 or 2am, if there is no one around and I have good visibility all around I generally ride through them. Shockingly if there is on the very odd occasion a lonely person that has triggered a crossing on a deserted street, if that individual is safely on the pavement I will pass through the light even if it is on red. I hardly consider myself a rebel and I’ve never had an issue or confrontation with anyone in 20 odd year’s of doing so. I guess the issues are more polarised in cities like London where folk are putting themselves and other’s at risk.

Not a red light but I used to regularly(*) cycle the wrong way up a one-way street cos the alternative was a significant detour on busy roads.

Eventually the council saw the light and installed a contra-flow cycle lane. At a stroke, my cycling changed from a heinous crime to entirely safe and appropriate, all thanks to a stripe of paint.

*(it was quite rare really, just when I cycled to Chester, maybe once a month at most. For those interested, it was the short lane heading north from the library etc, no more than 100 yards on a road that was barely used. The alternative was to work your way though the bus station – dangerous enough in itself – and on to the busy two-lane ring road)

I wouldn’t worry about it.

My shop is on a crossroads and it’s red plus at least one car.

We had a young girl get knocked over while she was “safely crossing ” on the 12 second beeps.

According to the cops it’s a council issue.

Do what the **** you like but don’t be a minute late back to your car.

I guess the issues are more polarised in cities like London where folk are putting themselves and other’s at risk.

Partly that, but, perhaps more pertinently, “London, where many national journalists are based and where commercial drivers with dashcams tend to latch onto anything that superficially shores up an existing opinion that assigning road space to pedal cycles is a bad thing”.

Partly that, but, perhaps more pertinently, “London, where many national journalists are based and where commercial drivers with dashcams tend to latch onto anything that superficially shores up an existing opinion that assigning road space to pedal cycles is a bad thing”.

In fairness, from helmet cam footage I’ve seen, there’s a fair amount of cyclists doing the same thing.

Conclusion, Londoners are mentalists! 😆

Up here, in the civilised world, we generally get on fine! 😆

In fairness, from helmet cam footage I’ve seen, there’s a fair amount of cyclists doing the same thing.

For sure. Such a densely light-controlled and congested area not only offers the greatest reward for going through a red, but inevitably by sheer numbers it also has the greatest visibility through cameras and anecdotes. It’s a perfect storm: Londoners aren’t a different species, they’re broadly the same random assortment of human qualities as anywhere, it’s just that the environment both elicits and illuminates different behaviour from those same qualities.

I stop at a red light pedestrian crossing in my car even when there’s no one on the crossing, patiently waiting, as do 90% of other people. There’s no reason why you shouldn’t do the same on a bike. That said the percentage of riders jumping the lights is about the same as drivers, in my experience.

Though I can see what’s going on when in race mode and “in the zone”. It’s the same with runners at junctions. Numerous times I’m in a car (or even on the bike), turning into a junction, and a runner on the foot path reaching the crossing point and clearly doesn’t want to stop and break their pace so will cross regardless of traffic. Some riders may feel the same, plus there’s the “hassle” of having to unclip 😉

Anyway, did the OP think they were in the Daily Mail comments section?

You think if every cyclist (“person on a bike”) suddenly started cycling entirely completely legally – not on the pavement, never jumped a light, always indicated, had correct pedal reflectors – that suddenly every motorist would show more respect?!

Because that’s total utter bollocks.

Of course not but it’s also about not giving the cycle haters any ammunition,  targets and justification for their vitriol. Because it might not make a difference is a piss poor reason not to obey the rules of the road like other road users.

I’m hardwired the same way, but the reality is that it’s purely an exercise of self-satisfaction: experience suggests that no-one whose mindset accepts the non-logic of “I saw some people on bikes jump a light therefore there is a group called cyclists and they all jump lights” will be swayed by the fact that you, I, or anyone else doesn’t. Not one.

I don’t think that is at all true because it depends what people see,

Regardless there will be a hardcore of cyclists who hate drivers and pedestrians who hate everyone etc.

My perception of London traffic suggests roughly the same. But out here in Surrey and Hampshire my perception is that this situation tends to be reversed:

Which is where a lot of perceptions lie…. and also the legislation!

I have watched tens of cyclists run a single red light forcing traffic coming in on green to stop and the small percentage who stop who stop have abuse hurled a them… that is a completely different perception to seeing tens of cyclists stop and one or two jump the light.

This wasn’t a one off…. this happened pretty much every weekday morning and evening.

A lot of those cyclists would probably not do this outside of this time and place, quite a few quite probably didn’t want to be were more scared of trying to fight the flow of bikes to stop they were caught up in.

The difference in perception is that for most the drivers and pedestrians one of these is all cyclists except the minority and the other is a few idiots.

Most people only need to witness one extreme example to form opinions that are then hard to change but not impossible … yes some will not change ever but that less important than a general perception.

I stop at a red light pedestrian crossing in my car even when there’s no one on the crossing, patiently waiting, as do 90% of other people.

Which can be rephrased as, “10% of people in cars ignore red lights on pedestrian crossings”.

Numerous times I’m in a car (or even on the bike), turning into a junction, and a runner on the foot path reaching the crossing point and clearly doesn’t want to stop and break their pace so will cross regardless of traffic.

Maybe they’re simply aware of Rule 170 in the Highway Code.

London, where many national journalists are based and where commercial drivers with dashcams tend to latch onto anything that superficially shores up an existing opinion that assigning road space to pedal cycles is a bad thing

Yeah, I agree with that. But I have to say I was sat having a late afternoon pint outside a pub in Islington a couple of weeks ago and I was surprised by both the number of cyclists and how poor the behaviour of the majority of them was. It was a bit of an eye opener to me. The behaviour of the majority of car drivers was also poor, but I tend to expect that.

<span style=”font-size: 12.8px;”>Do I stop at red lights – Yes.</span>

Do I have lights on my bike – Yes.

Do I have a bell – Yes.

Do I wear a helmet – Yes.

Do I have insurance – Yes.

Do I pay road tax – Yes (I also own a car which at any point i’m using the bike, isn’t on the road).

Do I still get abuse, aggression and disdain – Yes!

What more can you do?

Do I pay road tax – Yes

*Family Fortunes buzzer*

“Numerous times I’m in a car (or even on the bike), turning into a junction, and a runner on the foot path reaching the crossing point and clearly doesn’t want to stop and break their pace so will cross regardless of traffic”

I think in that situation, if you’re turning into a side street, the pedestrian may have priority, depending on timing (rule 170).  Another rule honoured more in the breach, particularly by motorists, because might is right and pedestrians have been cowed into submission.

I’m sorry but I don’t buy this whole argument for “Cyclists” collective reputation somehow being damaged by a small proportion of individuals behaviour, and that we all have some responsibility for the wider perception of everyone else on a bicycle… people form their opinions from a variety of sources, one person skipping a light can’t be held up as justification for the sort of abuse that some drivers want it to justify.

There isn’t really a “community” of cycling commuters, there are people who ride bikes to/from work but that’s really where most common ground stops. Just like there isn’t really a “Community” of car commuters, or van drivers, there are large numbers of people who use motor vehicles for transport…

The truth is the simmering hatred for people on bicycles is there in a proportion of all tin-boxers for whatever reason, and whether or not those 1 in 6 RLJers feed a little confirmation bias, the irrational dislike will still be there…

People basically know when they break the rules whatever their mode of transport, most people will respond with a tut, strictly speaking the only group that should actually take it any further are the police…

Manchester is quite amazing for cars going through reds, I’m convinced that  taxi firms use  Steve McQueen as an inhouse driving instructor. the junction of Bury New Rd and Trinity Way by the arena is a doozy

I sometimes (rare) turn left through a red if it gets me away from a queue of cars on my rear wheel. I no longer get upset about people riding bikes on a pavement because the roads are full 24×7 and there is no safe provision (until the beelines start happening in Manchester).

sweeping generalisations about people in cars and vans is as common on here as ‘cyclists’ on petrolheads I would bet. How often do we see comments about White vans, beemers who don’t indicate, audi’s driving too fast…

the irrational dislike will still be there…

Yes, but running red lights is such an easy thing for the anti-cycling lobby to trot out and get support from the public on. And unlike riding primary or two abreast or in a group, running a red light is black and white – it’s breaking the law, it’s obvious when you do it and it’s easily measurable (e.g. 1 out of 6). If we are campaigning for safer, better, more active travel, red light jumping is handing the anti-cyclists bullets.

In the modern world we do not fight facts, we fight perceptions.

I haven’t scanned the thread fully so apologies if it has been said before, but I often see cyclists take to the pavement when going “left on red”, then reverting to the road having completed the manoeuvre.  Thus swapping one offence (running a red light) with another (cycling on the pavement).

The country is suffering from an epidemic of people not facing up to their responsibilities.

Has been for years. People bleating about their rights but unwilling to accept that with rights come responsibilities (most importantly upholding other people’s rights).

cyclists take to the pavement when going “left on red”, then reverting to the road having completed the manoeuvre

I quite like the ones who have one foot on a pedal and the other pushing on the floor like it’s a scooter and that somehow makes it different / allowable.