Custom Mini Velo project

I’ve always had a thing for mini velos and owned a few too.
None have ever hit the mark geomnetry wise, so I’m going the custom route with Marino.
This will be a build thread as and when things develop and turn up.
It’ll probably be dull and very niche..

So, a few key highlight:

– It’s going to be Reynolds 520 frame with 4130 fork. I’ve opted for fender mounts & gravel mounts on the fork.
– The frame is exrternal routing but with a dropper port to run a 150-180mm ish dropper.
– Boost through axles front and read with sliding dropouts and clearance for 2.8″ tyres.
Anyway, here’s part 1- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCuTxZqhk3w

The geometry I’ve settled for is this, Long/ low/ slack:

It’ll probably be dull and very niche..

Oh no, looks ace, I’ll follow with interest.

I’ve fancied a mini velo for a while, but it would probably have to replace the dedicated commute bike. Your design looks like it has all the practicality that requires. I’ll have a Nexus and belt drive for added nicheness though please. 😀

I was contemplating a coaster brake hub and single speed for more beardiness.
I’ll definitley run it single speed at some point. Hoping to take it to SS UK champs next year for extra fun.

I’ve had one on the framebuild “to do” list for a long time (got two other frames I want to make before that so we are probably talking years away yet). Just about got as far as buying some 20″ Schwalbe big apples and a Sachs 3 speed coaster hub….

Will be really interesting to know how you find the handling / steering – the stumbling block for me was needing to knock together some kind of prototype with adjustable head angle and fork offset to decide what worked rather than making something hateful. If you get it finished in time for SSUK I might be tempted to dust off the radiator bike 🙂 (survived the Staveley one whichever year that was)

Kind of reminds me of the old Burro Bikes:

https://www.pinkbike.com/buysell/1300949

I know what you mean! This build has been nigling me for a long time now so I thought enough was enough.
I’ve tried to be sensible with the geometry, constiantly comparing it to other bikes I like, but hard to know given it’s on 20″ wheels. No ones really done a mini hardcore hardtail either so difficult to compare. Fingers crossed! If nothing else, I’ll be able to take a few people on the journey hopefully.

I should be finished by SSUK I think.. if it is, I’m there! Would love to see the radiator bike 😀 !

Not heard of the Burro, but they look like huge amounts of fun!

Will be really interesting to know how you find the handling / steering – the stumbling block for me was needing to knock together some kind of prototype with adjustable head angle and fork offset to decide what worked rather than making something hateful.

Surely a raleigh shopper folder and various inserts between the two halves is the solution to protoyping.

Nice!  I’ve been having my head turned by the Boom Boat that Stridsland is working on

https://www.instagram.com/stories/highlights/18015235151588054/

I’ve used Marino for a frame and fork and while I’ve ridden the frame and it rides fine it is the heaviest steel frame I’ve come across (I went for Reynolds 725). Marino comms is good until you’ve confirmed the order and paid but if there are any issues after you receive it you probably won’t hear back. They made me a fork to go with the frame but the disc spacing wasn’t right and they never replied to my emails so it’s unusable. Part of that might have been me trying to get them to make a 135mm front-disc spaced fork but either way it didn’t work out. It also weighed 3kg!

XACD in china (https://www.ti-bikes.com/) will do a custom steel frame now, I’ve had them make me a Ti Truss fork that was very well made so I’d trust them to make something like your mini-velo. The discussion before they make it is done via CAD drawings that are much more accurate than Marino offer. No worries about comms either, Porter from XACD will chase you up relentlessly if you don’t reply the next day. I had a quote for a basic steel frame with butted tubing and it was about $500, so not loads more than Marino but I think the quality will be better.

Anyway sorry to bash on Marino, they’re definitely a good option for trying funky geo on the cheap but like others I have had issues with their work. I’m getting another custom frame done soon and while I’d love to be able to afford a UK builder I can’t so I’ll probably go with XACD.

The geometry I’ve settled for is this, Long/ low/ slack:

Well, it’ll wheelie easily : )

..wheelie, wheelie easily.

@cokie, might want to check that fork length if you want to fit 2.8 tyres. A 20 x 2.8″ tyre is about 280mm radius I think and a steel unicrown fork often has 35 to 40mm crown depth – so 282 to 287mm axle to underside of crown. Could be getting a bit close?

Boom Boat

I love this thing. Looks great fun! I’m just not a fan of how it looks or the steep HA. Other than that it’s spot on.

Marino quality

Yeah.. I’ve read lots about them, so fingers crossed! I didn’t realise there was others on the market.
I’m locked in now, so let’s see how this pans out!

Easy wheelies

Yup 😀 ! I loved that about my Zeta, so looking forward to the playfulness.. hopefully.

320mm A-C

You could be right.. I’m going to start with some Kenda Slant Six 2.6″ which clear on other bikes with 320mm. Hopefully it’ll be fine.
I’m locked in now, so no changing..

You might like this from Ted James Designs:

View this post on Instagram

A post shared by Ted James Design Ltd (@tjdbikes)

I’ve bought custom titanium frames from both XACD and Waltly Titanium – I’d go Waltly if they’re still doing custom frames, Porter is just such a PITA to deal with. Waltly frames are better finished/less agricultural.

I’ve bought custom titanium frames from both XACD and Waltly Titanium – I’d go Waltly if they’re still doing custom frames, Porter is just such a PITA to deal with. Waltly frames are better finished/less agricultural.

I dont think Waltly do steel frames though. Would be interested if anyone knows of other custom steel frame builders near the Marino price range.

And yes, Porter is really something, maybe one day I’ll have the chutzpah to email colleagues like that.

I chatted with Ted James. Always loved his work! Close to 3x the price. One day I’ll have one of his frames though..

My next challenge is building up my first wheelset! Deciding on specs, but Hope hubs on some sort of BMX rim I think.. Need to work out nipples and spokes too.

For the wheels, with small rims and a decent dish (because of the small rims and boost hubs) they’re going to be massively strong. Go for a low spoke count if possible. 28 would be loads.

The Marino 135mm fork disc mount problem is probably because front and rear hubs have a different offset of disc mount to axle end. I guess they just made a fork with 135mm dropout spacing but normal fork disc position.

I had the same but opposite issue using a 100mm front hub on the rear of an oversized balance bike. I did a normal ISO rear dropout where the disc mount is flush with the dropout face and then found the alignment issue – hence the aluminium spacer plate shown below. I’d say 50:50 designer : builder at fault -I was both so can’t really complain 🙂

I’m not really a mini velo aficionado, but I do find them interesting. Silly question, do slacker head angles actually suit 20″ wheels? Is wheel flop more or less of a thing for them?

If you want a uk builder maybe chat to my mate Jon. He’s built his own minivelo amongst many other things including my tall bike and is great at what he does at and very knowledgeably, I’m sure he’d be happy to share ideas and lessons learnt from his build.

https://www.instagram.com/tomobikes/?hl=en

@cookeaa I’ve done a bit of reading around different wheel sizes and geometry and everything suggests it applies across the board.
I’ve not seen anything slacker than 69’ though, but I think that’s mainly because they’ve been setup as urban/road bikes.

@bugpowderdust thanks! I love a tall bike too. Always fancied one but wouldn’t fit into my bike rack. Surprised I’ve not come across his profile.

Currently quoted 2 months for build + 1 month postage time. Hopefully it’ll be a little build project for winter/early spring and then get the miles in once the weathers better.

@bikesandboots

Marino comms is good until you’ve confirmed the order and paid but if there are any issues after you receive it you probably won’t hear back.

I know Marino can be a bit slow but  when I had a small problem with a frame  they built me another frame as a replacement.

They also let me keep the original frame which I’m still riding.

The new one is still sat in a box as a spare.

Maybe try them again?

YES!!! I love this kind of thing. Proud owner of two minivelo, a Cannondale Hooligan and a Challenge Urban Camper & always liked the look of the Braasi too though I guess that’s more of a mediumvelo.

I actually taught myself to braze so that I could build a minivelo but unfortunately while I was kinda ok at it, I’m flipping terrible at the tube mitering so it never went anywhere other than some very expensive scrap.

Watching this thread with maximum interest.

Silly question, do slacker head angles actually suit 20″ wheels? Is wheel flop more or less of a thing for them?

Good Q I reckon, started wondering about that after I got a Brompton.. You do get a bit more flop for a given trail figure from a small wheel vs a 29″, 15%  ish. But a larger radius wheel will have a very different geometry to get that same trail figure starting point so it’s all in a mix. I think (because the maths that covers this is ok in principle but beyond me in detail) if you compared 2 bikes with the same flop and different wheel sizes, the rate of change of the steerer tube / steering torque the flop creates as you go into a corner will feel different with a smaller radius wheel, but other aspects of the geometries will make much more difference overall.

It’s all about how that flop torque feels to you, how much feedback you like and how far the bike can be leaned w/o tucking (more trail = more lean). I think getting a frame made to try your ideas is the way to go, look fwd to hearing how OP gets on here. This bike looks fun – I reckon far more bikes ended up rubbish because of too little trail than from having too much.

@thepodge nice! I love the Hooligan, especially with the lefty. They seem to have gone mad price wise recently. Good investment 😀 ! Would love to build my own frame one day.

@jameso interesting, that all makes sense to me! My Stooge SpeedBomb is probably my most favourtie bike to date, so I was trying to get close to that.

The Hooligan uses standard 26″ length forks and a short head tube which would make experimenting with offset a touch easier but does change the whole aesthetic.

I don’t know what any of the numbers are on my bikes but the Challenge is a more neutral ride while the Cannondale needs to be kept in check a bit.

The Marino 135mm fork disc mount problem is probably because front and rear hubs have a different offset of disc mount to axle end. I guess they just made a fork with 135mm dropout spacing but normal fork disc position.

I actually wanted the normal fork disc position but they made the fork with rear disc spacing (which does make some sense when it is to fit a 135mm hub) Anyway the fork was so heavy I don’t think I’d enjoy riding it anyway (I’m sure a mini-velo fork will be much lighter!). I tried to email them a few times about it but had no response so gave up. The frame they made for me was to spec though, some extra gussets I didn’t ask for but the angles were as close to correct as I could measure them.

Lots of excellent conversations on geometry and frame construction over here https://forum.customframeforum.com/.

@mick_r I’m intrigued/encouraged by that plate fix. I’m wanting to do something similar. I’m just commenting as a place holder should I ever get around to it and have questions

The plate disc mount was part of the second STW balance bike project:

Happy Christmas STW story

I’ve got the iso disc mount drawing somewhere (should also be online). It is basically a few radial dimensions about the axle, so lots of scope for where you can put it and tricks to work with singlespeed etc.

Oh brilliant, thanks.

I’ve got a bunch of tabs open on iso and post mount, I think I just didn’t actually sit down to read them properly and got a bit confused.

Sorry for the derail @cokie, looking forward to seeing this build progress.

No worries, that’s all interesting! Never knew there was a difference between brake calliper spacing/pattern front and rear.

So, I’ve named the project/bike.. Minimacho.
the decals just arrived. 

Black Friday is turning into a bit of a treasure trove for the build.
– I’ve got a set of SLX brakes & cranks. Managed to pickup a 42t direct mount chainring too.
– Hope hubs, spokes, nipples & hubs just arrived so will start the build on those shortly

Not sure what speed mech/cassette to go for. There’s some clearance issues so can’t go too wide. Currently thinking Zee with a 11-36t 10spd cassette.

Black Friday is turning into a bit of a treasure trove for the build.
– I’ve got a set of SLX brakes & cranks. Managed to pickup a 42t direct mount chainring too.
– Tyres, Hope hubs, spokes, nipples & rims just arrived so will start the build on those shortly

Not sure what speed mech/cassette to go for. There’s some clearance issues so can’t go too wide. Currently thinking Zee with a 11-36t 10spd cassette.

Another option for small wheels is the special short cage 9 speed microshift derailleur.

It’s discussed briefly in the Velo Orange Neutrino review. Might help with any clearance issues and I think allows 11-38 cassette.

Velo Orange Neutrino Review: Small Bike, Big Fun

Interesting! Microshift has passed me by. Wasn’t sure on quality and always defaulted to Sram/Shimano.
I can get a full 8spd 11-38t setup for £84, which is remarkable value.
Given my main bike is SS, the gear range should be plenty.

Looks like some nice parts, look forward to seeing the build!

I know Marino can be a bit slow but  when I had a small problem with a frame  they built me another frame as a replacement.

Maybe try them again?

They just got back to me actually, I had emailed back in March so it took a while. They’ve asked if I could make the fork work and I’ve said I can’t so I’ll see if they can sort it out.

just for interest, one of these popped up on a recent Berm  Peak Vid

https://www.kyootbikes.com/

also using the designed for little wheels supershort Micro shift stuff on my daughters bike and seems pretty good so far.

Wheelset built up- really happy with these! Pro 5 makes a lovely buzzing noise and the 2.6” Slant six tyres fill out nicely.

Pretty much all other parts gathered now. I’m still undecided on drivetrain. Will do a mini video on wheel build and and spec at some point.

@rootes1 – I really like the Itty Bitty, but Kyoot wouldn’t give me the geometry and I have an aversion to QR hubs. Frameset is also more expensive than the Marino.

Cool project! Have you seen this? Builder does some brilliant stuff and is on the LFGSS forum

Vandal metal works were my inspiration when I started brazing. They reframed an old GT LTS and had it at the Glasgow handmade bike show.

@cokie

Loves those wheels and tyres! shame the Brompton G Line wouldn’t accept tyres of this width…

also came across this – also QR though:

https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/frames/blacksnow-granite-ebb-frame-fork-set-grey-large/