well, apart from Woppit who seems to be determined to be controversial) is saying that imagination is bad.

Don’t think I actually said that, old boy.

It’s when imagination then gets trotted out as fact and pressure groups try to get it taught in science lessons that we have a problem.

Why’s that then?

I imagined that you did!

If no-one told you about god, it’s highly unlikely that you’d spontaneously come up with a religion on your own

How did religions come about in the first place then?

Maybe they really were talking to God?

Oh, stoppit. You’re worse than me. 😉

Don’t think I actually said that, old boy.

Cheerfully withdrawn. Apologies.

Why’s that then?

Er, eh? Because it’s not science?

Sorry, I’m utterly stunned by that question and I’m a bit speechless (quiet at the back). You can’t really be that hard of thinking surely, I must’ve misunderstood your question? What do you mean?

You know what’s especially weird: transubstantiation*.

*Just Catholics, not all Christians, etc.

it’s highly unlikely that you’d spontaneously come up with a religion on your own
…
How did religions come about in the first place then?

That’s not quite what I meant, poor wording on my part. What I meant to say was, “it’s highly unlikely that you’d spontaneously come up with an already established religion on your own.” Eg, an tribe on an island isolated from the rest of the world isn’t likely to come up with a belief system that looks exactly like Christianity or Islam.

Which, sort of dispels the idea of us all being god’s children; if we were, we’d have come up with mostly similar religions in isolation. That isn’t the case; religion (historically) has spread largely by force and invasion.

it’s highly unlikely that you’d spontaneously come up with an already established religion on your own

If all human knowledge was wiped out tomorrow another civilisation, somewhere in the universe, will come up with the same scientific laws but, if they have them, completely different religions.

Precisely, yes.

If all human knowledge was wiped out tomorrow another civilisation, somewhere in the universe, will come up with the same scientific laws but, if they have them, completely different religions.

Ahhh Penn Jillette!!

>It’s when imagination then gets trotted out as fact and pressure groups try to get it taught in science lessons that we have a problem.

>Why’s that then?

Er, eh? Because it’s not science?

Sorry, I’m utterly stunned by that question and I’m a bit speechless (quiet at the back). You can’t really be that hard of thinking surely, I must’ve misunderstood your question? What do you mean?

Apologies, it’s Sugar Thursdays where I spurt things out thinking everyone is able to read my mind and know exactly what angle I’m approaching discussions from…

I’ve forgotten my point, really. It’s basically semantics about your use of the word ‘imagination’ and your use of the concrete morality of ‘right and wrong’ in a world where everything is relative.

I’ll shuffle away now 🙂

Oh, with reference to the ‘creating a religion from nothing and having it different to our established religions’ – all you have to do is take one culture’s ‘bad thing’ and call it ‘Satan’ for instant conversion.
Unless you’re The Pirahã, the happiest group of people in the world (measured by time spent smiling) who reject God that is.

molgrips – Member
What’s wrong with inventing your own religion? All varieties of Christianity were invented at some point.

This.

Pretty much what you have to do if you want to get through this thing sane..

You need something, some logic, to have worked out as close as you can from all the mumbo jumbo what you think it is all about and what happens after, I seriously think everyone deep down needs to have some form of belief even Atheists do believe this is it and it’s game over, very brave of them, or very bravado depending on your own viewpoint I guess.

Ahhh Penn Jillette!!

I heard Ricky Gervais say it first (in this interview, I think), but he may have got it from Penn Jillette.

I’ve forgotten my point, really. It’s basically semantics about your use of the word ‘imagination’ and your use of the concrete morality of ‘right and wrong’ in a world where everything is relative.

In which case, I’m glad that a) you can’t remember because that looks pedantic and complicated, and b) you’re not completely hatstand.

(Just, y’know, a little bit.)

even Atheists do believe this is it and it’s game over

Again, atheists all disbelieve the existence of any god. That is all. Being an atheist saying nothing about a person’s belief about what happens after death.

he may have got it from Penn Jillette.

Google would suggest it’s from “God, no!” by PJ. The quote is,

If every trace of any single religion were wiped out again and nothing was passed on, it would never be created exactly that way again. There might be some other nonsense in its place, but not that exact nonsense. If all of science were wiped out, it would still be true and someone would find a way to figure it out again. Without hype, Lot’s salt-heap ho would never be thought of again. Without science, the Earth still goes around the sun and someday someone will find a way to prove that again.

Which is what I was trying to say, only written by someone more intelligent.

(Just, y’know, a little bit.)

Very hat stand. 🙂
See my edit link above, makes for good reading (if you haven’t read it already, that is.)
Bonus: It’s not a cult I want you to join.

Which is what I was trying to say, only written by someone more intelligent with time and an editor.

Eg, an tribe on an island isolated from the rest of the world isn’t likely to come up with a belief system that looks exactly like Christianity or Islam

True, although pagan style beliefs are quite comparable.

Without hype, Lot’s salt-heap ho would never be thought of again.

We’re back to the bible again. Lot only appears in the bible. If you consider the bible as fables, parables and instructive stories* as well as some mis-told history, then it doesn’t matter one bit. God and Jesus could still be there, even if Lot didn’t exist.

As many Christians do

miketually – Member
even Atheists do believe this is it and it’s game over
Again, atheists all disbelieve the existence of any god. That is all. Being an atheist saying nothing about a person’s belief about what happens after death.

Surely the two are linked God’s caveat being do what I say or you’ll be in trouble when we meet, Atheist retorting that we can do what we like because there is no God therefore no-one to get us in the afterlife, in fact there is no afterlife. Could be wrong here but assumed the two went hand in hand.

So what do atheists think happens when it’s game over in this earthly plane?

Atheist retorting that we can do what we like because there is no God

I don’t know if this is a sly reference to it being impossible to have morality without god, but if it is then you’re wrong and not getting away with it. (-:

So what do atheists think happens when it’s game over in this earthly plane?

Again, you’re confusing atheism with a belief system. There is no atheist bible to tell us all what to think. Atheists believe whatever they want to believe; I expect most don’t believe in an afterlife or take the more agnostic “who knows” stance, but some probably believe we come back as lower life forms like cows or beetles or youtube commenters.

So what do atheists think happens when it’s game over in this earthly plane?

Did you do biology in school? 🙄

Atheist retorting that we can do what we like because there is no God therefore no-one to get us in the afterlife

FIFY or are you saying Atheist have no morality?

(I don’t normally do this but,)

Sixundred and sixty six!

So what do atheists think happens when it’s game over in this earthly plane?

I doubt anyone has asked them all. There is no atheist mantra (other than make-believe isn’t real).

Did you do biology in school?

Biology classes in my school didn’t cover the Immortal Soul, I dunno where you went to school!

If every trace of any single religion were wiped out again and nothing was passed on, it would never be created exactly that way again. There might be some other nonsense in its place, but not that exact nonsense. If all of science were wiped out, it would still be true and someone would find a way to figure it out again. Without hype, Lot’s salt-heap ho would never be thought of again. Without science, the Earth still goes around the sun and someday someone will find a way to prove that again.

Yeah, but we’d have no history either, the story of Henry VIII and his six wives would never be retold, doesn’t mean its not true. I’m not saying that PJ is wrong, but he’s chosen a poor example, i think

Atheist Christian retorting that we can do what we like because there is no God therefore no-one to get us in the afterlife, in fact there is no afterlife God will forgive us

Don’t forget to add that bit if we’re doing religion&Morality™

Surely the two are linked God’s caveat being do what I say or you’ll be in trouble when we meet, Atheist retorting that we can do what we like because there is no God therefore no-one to get us in the afterlife, in fact there is no afterlife. Could be wrong here but assumed the two went hand in hand.

Buddhists are atheists but believe in something that happens after death.

Biology classes in my school didn’t cover the Immortal Soul, I dunno where you went to school!

Who said anything about an immortal soul?

It’s when imagination then gets trotted out as fact and pressure groups try to get it taught in science lessons that we have a problem.

Not a problem if there are folks trying, folks try all kinds of stuff, there’s a lot of variety. The problem would be if they were successful.

Who said anything about an immortal soul?

Indeed, Cotic’s lifetime warrenty only covers the Soda…

folks try all kinds of stuff, there’s a lot of variety

You have heard of “opportunity cost” ?

Not a problem if there are folks trying, folks try all kinds of stuff, there’s a lot of variety. The problem would be if they were successful.

“Attempted murder”.

You have heard of “opportunity cost” ?

Prepared to pay that cost for some democracy

“Attempted murder”.

You may well have been the victim of attempted murder, just not known it, has it bothered you?

Prepared to pay that cost for some democracy

What are you talking about ?

The problem would be if they were successful.

Or, as already stated, if their beliefs propped up the mutilation of children genitals, homophobia, subjugation of women, wars, etc.

I know people like to advertise religion as being harmless, but that doesn’t really stand up to even the minutest of scrutinees.

miketually – Member

Buddhists are atheists but believe in something that happens after death.

Never done Buddhism (didn’t like Orange) but are you not forgetting that Buddah fella is he not a form of deity they believe in?

I also recall reading it was a branch of the Hindu faith anyway so hardly atheism in the way our post modern liberal pseudo intellectuals view the atheist belief.

*Re incarnation, multiple planes of enlightenment achieved through repeat visits, was the one that did it for me..

*Some convincing anecdotal and semi-scientific hypnotherapy experiments still have the door open on this one.

You may well have been the victim of attempted murder, just not known it, has it bothered you?

I’m really not sure where you’re going with this. “Attempted murder” is a crime, it’s illegal. I mentioned it as a counterexample to your suggestion that it’s fine to try anything you like so long as you don’t succeed.

Obviously I can’t be concerned about something I’m not aware of. But how does this relate back to the original topic? You’re saying it’s ok to try and teach religion in science lessons so long as no-one finds out? What?