This is good thinking… encourage people to leave the car at home during the fuel crisis (can we call it that now?)

https://www.dw.com/en/everything-you-need-to-know-about-germanys-9-euro-ticket/a-61978439

So everyone else gets to subsidise your travels choices. No thanks

People are calling for help with fuel prices. What if the answer is for that help to be used to make it super affordable to use public transport where possible. Public transport that is running anyway. Not exactly radical, in fact seems pretty obvious.

Great idea. One major headache for doing the same here is that Germany has a well funded and wide spread public transport system. We have a Fricking mess from under investment, Tory governments and entitled car drivers.

So everyone else gets to subsidise your travels choices. No thanks

Sorry what? We live in a society, that means we all pay money into the pot, and it gets used for whatever is needed.

You need to stop thinking in terms of you paying for someone else’s thing. That’s not really how it works, and if you go down that road everyone ends up bitterly complaining about everyone else, and that’s a really shitty life to live. It’s a bit like being the person who refuses to buy rounds at the pub but in this case peoples whole lives are affected.

So everyone else gets to subsidise your travels choices. No thanks

I bet they don’t even pay road tax

So everyone else gets to subsidise your travels choices. No thanks

Why not? Drivers have been getting subsidised for years, why shouldn’t everyone else get a turn? Bring it on.

I’m a driver. I’m glad of all the roads we share (guess what, I didn’t fund all the building and maintaining of the roads I use out of my own pocket). People want the government to step in and help with the effects of the fuel crisis (why aren’t we calling it that as a matter of course), but tend to look at the more direct measures, changes to fuel duty, investigating pump prices etc… this just looks a far more interesting way to offer help. To me anyway.

I was saying something similar about domestic fuel prices, the answer isn’t to make it cheaper, its to use less.
All this money being spent on helping people with fuel bills would be much better spent on, for example, insulation or grants for solar panels.
Same with this, don’t make fuel cheaper, just help people to use less of it.
High prices might finally get some movement towards reducing carbon emissions

Correct @andrewh however that should have been worked on for years, unfortunately we can’t insulate everyone’s homes before this winter. The problem with the energy bill rises is that it happened very quickly so short term relief is required.

So everyone else gets to subsidise your travels choices. No thanks

Can you imagine the uproar if all the healthy people had to stump up for the costs of hospitals? 🤦‍♂️

Public transport infrastructure is a must for society, but as usual the UK is blinkered by short term ism.

Doesn’t matter if the dars are diesel, petrol or electric, traffic jams are still traffic jams

Why not? Drivers have been getting subsidised for years, why shouldn’t everyone else get a turn? Bring it on.

This

Drivers aren’t subsidised.

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/consumer-news/89224/only-a-quarter-of-car-tax-is-spent-on-roads

Bus tickets couldn’t be as cheap as they are if they gad to cover the cost of roads.

Trains- in Scotland 2/3rds of each fare is subsidised.

Of course drivers are subsidised. We get to drive around on roads paid for by local and national governments (and in some cases transnational bodies). If we only had the roads we paid for ourselves individually, we wouldn’t get far. And then there are all the external costs in terms of the environment and health…

Germany has to do this due to their relationship with Russia for Oil and Gas, they are currently working out how the hell they will be able to continue without access to it in the coming months, so this is more than Germany providing cheap travel for their inhabitants.

There are a few European countries that are going to struggle even more in the coming months, Germany get nearly half of their oil from Russia, the UK get under 10%, if a full embargo hits you can see which countries will be more affected!

If it were up to me I’d make all public transport free, bet you’d still see huge traffic jams but it’s the best way of getting people out of their cars. I’d still cycle everywhere in town but that’s cos I have a healthy dislike for other humans

Germany has to do this due to their relationship with Russia for Oil and Gas

Absolutely. But we also have a cost of living crisis, much of it linked to oil and gas prices… so there are plenty of calls here of “something must be done for people”… so why don’t we think about doing something like this, instead of trying to address the issue by fiddling around with fuel duty and improving competitive practises at the pump? Reduce car use during the fuel crisis, help bring down people’s travelling costs, and reduce fuel usage… all sounds like wins to me. It might even result in some us shifting away from some of our car use a bit faster in the long term (the real reason why people might object to it I suppose, the idea that fewer car journey is a reasonable goal in itself makes some people think that country will suddenly become “anti-driver”… and most of us are drivers).

Making all public transport free would cost about the same as cutting 10p off fuel duty (according to this economist). I know which I’d choose

10p per litre reduction in fuel duty will cost the Treasury roughly the same as MAKING ALL PUBLIC TRANSPORT FREE https://t.co/z0lY0oEg1k

— Adam Tyndall (@AdamTyndall) July 11, 2022

Public transport free at point of use would be such a massive game changer.
ive thought this for ages
If it costs as little as 10p on the litre, i dont see what the hold up is!
(well i do, its a privately run travel network operating for profit)

As he points out in subsequent tweets, it’s not quite as simple as that – and someone notes there’d be financial knock-on effects. If public transport was free, everyone would use it so we’d need to pay for more capacity, and fuel duty revenues would go down because no-one’s using their cars. OTOH, I guess we could spend less on road maintenance and building and whatnot.

And obviously, the type of people who unironically use the phrase ‘war on the motorist’ would be purple in the face at the idea of other people benefiting from a public good.

Still, it’s a nice thought.

Public transport doesn’t even have to be free, as good and as cheap as in London would be a start. Remember over 60’s already get some of it for free* already.

* I’m actually considering moving to a London Borough because it’s worth it just for this perk.

Public transport free at point of use would be such a massive game changer.
ive thought this for ages
If it costs as little as 10p on the litre, i dont see what the hold up is!
(well i do, its a privately run travel network operating for profit)

I don’t think private ownership running for profit is necessarily a barrier to 100% subsidy of public transport. There’s still plenty of profit to be made from delivering services. In fact you could save a load of cost by not having ticket offices, staff, machines, dealing with refunds, pursuing non-payers, etc…

Remember over 60’s already get some of it for free* already.

All Busses free for anyone under 22 in Scotland too (need to be resident and register). Big discounts for over 50s (not at peak time) on Scotland’s trains. Actually the only people paying “full fair” are commuters… the exact people who 1. We most want to displace from the roads; 2. Suffer the most from fuel duty increases (if they drive instead).

Whilst to me its a no-brainer policy (which would actually lead to sensible politics on improving services) we do need to be aware that many of the people who currently drive rather than use public transport for commuting etc do so because there are no services at the right time – hospital staff, care workers etc. working shifts.

My sister is currently touring Germany on holiday with her family using this…

I’d also add we need proper cycle carrying provision, in Italy last week I noticed a lot of buses had bike racks on the back. cycling, particularly E-bikes have real potential to bridge the gap between where public transport goes and where people want to be.

We had bike racks on buses here locally for a while. All the complainers complained… they got removed.

I’m sorry but that is F—ing ridiculous, who on earth does it harm? I despair of people sometimes.

We had bike racks on buses here locally for a while. All the complainers complained… they got removed.

The bus service I use for commuting has storage for a couple of bikes.
The only complaints I’ve heard are from the cyclists who wish there were more spaces for bikes to prevent them getting stranded if the spaces are taken, and one of the lazy drivers who always moans about taking bikes as he has to get off his fat arse and walk to the rear of the bus to open the door!

It’s a great system but not without its flaws. It works well enough that one of my neighbours has ditched his car to use the service and I’m toying with the idea of doing the same.

The drivers complained. The passengers complained about the time taken by the drivers.

we do need to be aware that many of the people who currently drive rather than use public transport for commuting etc do so because there are no services at the right time

This would describe me, I have a 50 mile round trip across shire boundaries. I have to drive from a large city to a small town. There isn’t a rail option and the busses are a joke.

I lived and worked in Florence towards the end of the 80’s and the buss service here in Leicester is still not as good as the service I used daily in Florence.

Largely thanks to the pandemic, I am now in the lucky situation that I able to work from home, although the company want us back in the office full time, it is recognise by our local mangers that it is really unnecessary for me to be in the office in order to do my job. Others in my company are not so lucky.

Of course drivers are subsidised. We get to drive around on roads paid for by local and national governments

Governments don’t have their own money. They spend our taxes.

I’d love to, I like driving, but I **** hate driving to work, it’s wasteful, expensive and annoying.

Public Transport just isn’t practical for me because of the school run. It’s 90 mins on the Bus, or 48 mins on the train, but involves a 3 mile walk each way. It’s only a 45 cycle, but the walk / cycle is too much for my 8 year old to do every day.

The problem for us is that public transport in Cardiff is like the spokes on a wheel, if you want to get from any of the suburbs or other towns/cities into the centre, there are options, but if you want to get from Suburb to Suburb, there aren’t.

As for increasing Public Transport use in general, it’s already at capacity. The commuter trains and buses are packed, it’s unplesant at best when it’s warm but pretty danagerous during a pandemic or with small kids.

With the Summer Hols starting at the end of next week, I’ve going to try to cycle as much as possible. I’ve agreed with Work that I can take physical meetings / site visits on a ‘next day’ basis so I can bring my car only when I need to, but come September, I’ll be commuting 9 miles a day at a cost of £3 or whatever it costs, until they either improve the system, or she starts High School in Sept 2025.

The ideal for me would be a network of Trams, we had them in the past in Cardiff, that allow you simple access to every part of the city, I don’t mind if I have to change or it takes longer, or even if it costs more then petrol. I’d gleefully give up my car, and perhaps keep a small, cheap van for bike duties at the weekend. I might do that in 2025 anyway.

Governments don’t have their own money. They spend our taxes.

Yes, and motorists get a disproportionate amount of those taxes spent on them.

The ideal for me would be a network of Trams, we had them in the past in Cardiff, that allow you simple access to every part of the city

Have you seen the South Wales Metro plans?

Governments don’t have their own money. They spend our taxes.

Let’s not argue the first point. But the second… yes we are all paying for the roads that each other uses. You don’t pay for enough road to get you to work, never mind anywhere else… everybody else pays or it. Your car journeys, my car journeys… all use roads paid for by everyone else. Just like public transport… in fact more so… as a driver I very rarely pay anything on a “per use” basis… very few toll roads in England… I depend almost entirely on free access to roads paid for by local and national government, or transnational bodies… or by the taxes of everyone else if you like to think of it that simply. Unless you own a private estate, every drive you take is on roads paid for by millions of other people. Say thank you. Don’t begrudge public transport also being paid for in much the same way (but topped up with pay per use fares that road users rarely have to pay).

as a driver I very rarely pay anything on a “per use” basis

I was thinking of going to Scotland in September, but all my tax money’s gone towards the M4 that I use a lot. Do you think they’ll let me on the M74?

Molegrips I’m also going to Scotland in September, I live north of you so if you want you can use my bit of the M6 🙂

Then we need to find some nice STW people that will let us use their roads in the area we are visiting 😉

It would be much better if we all put into one pot and then could drive most places 😀

My hope is that high fuel prices will begin to focus drivers minds on to reducing unnessary car use to the point that other options start to become more viable – making fewer journeys ( do you really need to drive 1mile to nip to the shop for a loaf?) using public transport more ( provision of which would improve with more users/demand and greater revenue streams, build it and they will come….), working from home where possible, living closer to work/schools, etc. Likelihood is it wont make siginifcant impact on reducing car use – society has been engrained to the point were cars are absolutely essential for human life – and we are wholly dependent on them at any cost, much to the delight of the oil companies, tax collectors and the car industry, but hugely to the detriment of the natural and built environment ( light, noise and air pollution, cancers / CVD from inhaling exhaust fumes, greenhouse gas emissions and the impacts on climate, obesity from lack of physical mobility, accidents causing injury and deaths and loss of green spaces to parking lots and road infrastructure).

The ideal for me would be a network of Trams, we had them in the past in Cardiff, that allow you simple access to every part of the city

Have you seen the South Wales Metro plans?

Yeah, more of the same, more faster trains from the Valley’s into Cardiff and vague promises about more buses.

TBH one of the guys in my office is the son of the head of TFW. Lets just say, there’s not much faith they’ll be able to deliver even their modest goals in any sort of useful timeframe.

These are the weekday goals from this £800m+ project

“four services per hour between Cardiff and the Heads of each Valley
two of the four services from Treherbert, Aberdare and Merthyr Tydfil will go on from Cardiff to Cardiff Bay
an extra service-per-hour between Cardiff and Bridgend via the Vale of Glamorgan Line from December 2023
two services per hour between Cardiff and Shrewsbury via Abergavenny from December 2022
an hourly service between Cardiff and Cheltenham via Chepstow from December 2022”

It’s all about getting more people into the city centre everyday, it will still take an hour and a change to get from Llandaff to Taffs Well etc, or Llanishen to Danescourt etc.

Likelihood is it wont make siginifcant impact on reducing car use – society has been engrained to the point were cars are absolutely essential for human life

My understadning is that Holland in the 60s and 70s was horrendous on the traffic front. Very definately leading the way in terms of the country becoming a modern car dependant hell hole.
The government made some very definate, quite unpopular policy decisions to stem it and promote more sensible transport.

Point is, with the political will and the right people with the conviction to make the right decision, it could happen. I think it will happen.

Chris Boardman’s appointment is fantastic, and i hope he gets the support where he needs it. Ive lost count of the variety of “XXX Live” articles misquoting him and undermining his efforts for the sake of facebook clicks. They ought to be ashamed.