which is just not reasonable or practical!

Same for lots of people. The idea of this kind of policy is help reduce fuel usage during a fuel crisis. Lots of people will still need to drive. But some people would be driving less, using already running public transport… so less fuel used during a fuel crisis. For those still driving regularly… the inflationary pressure on their fuel prices would be reduced, and as a bonus they’d face less congestion, which would mean that they would also be using less fuel.

Win… win… win… including for those who have to drive!

Democracy is about pleasing core voters.Nothing bad about that.

Yes, but sadly far too many of the core voters will only be pleased by policies that specifically prevent other people from being advantaged in some way, irrespective of whether those policies do in fact indirectly benefit them. A perfect example being raised in this discussion. It is the duty of any responsible politician to see past this and see the wider benefits, even when it’s not ‘popular’. Thats the problem with populism; it favours doing the popular things even where they’re just bloody minded stupidity.

The number of local bus users here looks like a tiny percentage of those qualifying for free bus travel.

True, but then who’s qualifying for it? The young, well they probably do get their bus in the morning to school and then home again. The old? Where have they got to get to? Nowhere specifically really. They do go places, but it’s not like they need to commute. Its also a chicken and egg situation. I would get the bus a lot more if it was free. I cant really get a train as we dont have any services locally so harder to say on that. But if I get the bus a bit, and so does my wife and kids, and so do some, but not all, of our neighbours, then eventually they’ll need more buses. When more buses come more often, the neighbours that were not willing to wait 15 mins (average) for a bus but would wait 7.5 will get on it too sometimes, and before you know it we’ll have a truly functional public transport system for once. All it really needs to make it work is passengers.

As for free public transport? Not sure how much it would reduce traffic I get free bus travel and the last time I was on a bus was when my car was being serviced.

you are clearly not the demographic suffering most from the cost of living issues and fuel price in particular? that is the low-paid, in-work, who “need” to drive to get to work. Some of them do vote tory (at least some of the time), and some of them have parents who vote tory. It’s not necessarily as bad for the tory party as you might think – but I expect its not good for the actual party members who elect the leader.

Right, with all costs going up, and the school holidays nearing their end… is it time to shake up public transport in this way? A couple of months of free or near free travel for all… get rail commuter numbers right up when the offices are filling up and fuel ain’t cheap… get shoppers into town and city centres to help reduce the retail slow down that inflation is likely to force on to shops?

Yes, it’s time to shake up public transport and yes, it’s a good idea from an environmental and personal finance point of view but…

It’ll never happen.

The Tories have shown absolutely no interest in helping the man/woman in the street and no doubt won’t until it’s nearly election time.

It doesn’t just help the man/woman in the street though, does it. It also helps the ivory tower dwellers that rely on rent, entertainment, eating out, shopping, commuting all continuing to happen at scale this winter. Only the oil companies will lose out (and they’re doing okay right now). It’s great for “business”.

didn’t someone from the current mob say “f@*K business” though so apparently they don’t care for them either.

@kelvin I couldn’t agree more, it has huge benefits in so many ways but, as ever, it’ll struggle when it’s up against the “but my petrol isn’t subsidised” brigade. And as these are the people who, I’m guessing, vote for the current government it’ll never happen.

The other issue is, of course, that public transport probably couldn’t cope with a huge increase in numbers. Sure, it’ll still be easy to get a bus at 10 in the morning or 10 at night but they’d be absolutely mobbed around rush hour. At least until the weather turns bad then they’ll be back to the way things were.

As ever, I’ve no idea what the solution is.

(only read the first page of the thread)

My view is to control the technology to make it more efficient and clean whatever but Not the freedom of the people. Let people choose as how they wish to live their life.

Increase fuel tax/cost in the current climate? Yeah right … Let’s see how many govts or societies will collapse. It’s like adding salt to the wound.

Nope, I will continue to drive my car (although I only drive less than 10 times per month) until world doom.

that public transport probably couldn’t cope with a huge increase in numbers

Numbers are still down “post pandemic” in many areas of the country. Valid point though.

Let people choose as how they wish to live their life.

No one said otherwise.

There’s good argument for public ownership of bus companies, the same may well be the case for rail companies as well but I’m not sure.

There’s a very good interview with Andy Burnham regarding the bus services in Manchester and how they were going about taking them back in to public control

https://www.cheerfulpodcast.com/rtbc-episodes/ticket-to-ride?rq=andy

The problem as I see it is, at what point would we stop with moving things back to public control? There’s justifiable arguments for doing it with power companies, water companies, transport companies, postal services, the list is endless. At what point do we stop? (Obviously, it’s never actually started yet!)

I, possibly quite sadly, find it incredibly interesting how we try to improve public transport and sustainable transport for the greater good. The differences to the lives of hundreds of thousands of people and the associated lifestyle improvements for them would be huge.

well everyone in the country needs;
Power,
housing,
transport,
water;
and to all intents and purposes an internet connection.

so I’d say that’s a good list to start with in terms of bringing things back into the public ownership.
Id say as a bare minimum things where effective competition is impossible, so rail and public transport, water housing and to an extent power.

I wouldn’t worry about where to stop as it hasn’t even started yet!

The other issue is, of course, that public transport probably couldn’t cope with a huge increase in numbers. Sure, it’ll still be easy to get a bus at 10 in the morning or 10 at night but they’d be absolutely mobbed around rush hour. At least until the weather turns bad then they’ll be back to the way things were.

There was a bit of an experiment in Reading a few years ago.

They reduced all bus fares to £1 (we have a council owned bus service). Initially it was hugely popular with all busses at capacity, but after a few weeks it leveled off and went back to normal-ish.

Maybe packed busses weren’t appealing.

Maybe the people not previously using the busses just didn’t find them convenient and saving £2-£3/day wasn’t enough to offset that after all.

But the net result was that halving the price didn’t double the demand once the novelty had worn off.

There was a bit of an experiment in Reading a few years ago.

They reduced all bus fares to £1

Those of a certain vintage may remember the Sheffield busses of mid 80s when a flat rate of 20p( may have been 2p?)was imposed by city council… always busy and appreciated by locals possibly too busy!
Later banned as profligate by government of the time a bit too grown up for current hard of thinking muppets. Not the golden bullet but you know…might help sadly wouldn’t help me still driving 500+miles per week to sites all over the country😱

get shoppers into town and city centres to help reduce the retail slow down that inflation is likely to force on to shops?

IME the last thing we should be doing is encouraging shopping. People are going to need their spare cash to heat their houses this winter. Last Jan I was paying 2.7p per Kwh for gas. After October it is 10.5p. Last Jan my gas bill was £40 Feb was £51 (plus standing charge). This year using the same amount of gas for Feb it would be £190. My electricity rate is up from 15.4p to 40.3p per Kwh. Looking at £300-£320 for energy at October rates plus whatver rise comes in January.

Since then we have replaced a 40 year old boiler for a new combi. The attic insullation has been upgraded. New heating controls. So all being equal I would expect gas usage to be down. But if we get a bad winter who knows?

I’ve seen a few initiatives to try and get people on buses, it never works as we all enjoy having the freedom a car gives us, and the luggage capacity. We can’t even get people to really try to car share, or reduce non essential travel, let alone getting them to take public transport.

The trains are just as bad, i used to commute by train for years, but the more unreliable the service became, the more it pushed me to getting a runner for commuting, you can make it cheaper, but without the reliability people will just filter back to their old transport.

Personally i’d have a review of the whole public transport passes and who gets what, we have a lot of people struggling who could do with passes for trains/buses, and people who are well off who have free bus passes and concession travel, i think it’s really a case of getting the most out of the subsidy already given by government and councils.

I’ve seen a few initiatives to try and get people on buses, it never works as we all I enjoy having the freedom a car gives us, and the luggage capacity. We can’t even get people to really try to car share, or reduce non essential travel, let alone getting them to take public transport.

Speak for yourself, mine broke down in June and I’ve not fixed it yet. And having already been trying to cut back on it as far as practically possible haven’t missed it.

It’s been great schadenfreude watching everyone lose their shit over the price of petrol whilst not having to pay a penny.

Aye, I’m alright Jack…

Aye, I’m alright Jack…

Yeah, us posh folk with a car, truly the elite class in the UK 😂

https://www.health.org.uk/evidence-hub/transport/transport-trends/trends-in-households-without-access-to-a-car

Good stat, but useless without actual supporting information and evidence, there are so many inputs into this graph that will affect the output, and to try and say that those in the UK with cars are the ruling elite is just embarrassing.

Under 22s in Scotland now get free bus travel. It’s an excellent idea but unfortunately it’s been marred by a truly awful implementation of the service to manage it.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-61492386

The irony in the name of the Organisation supposed to managing it is deafening.

https://www.improvementservice.org.uk/

Aye, I’m alright Jack…

Naa, I’m as **** by climate change caused by them as everyone else, I’m just not contributing to it at the moment.

So as long as you’re alright Jack in your car, who cares about the rest of the planet ey?

Good stat, but useless without actual supporting information and evidence, there are so many inputs into this graph that will affect the output, and to try and say that those in the UK with cars are the ruling elite is just embarrassing.

Have a badge for your effort

Under 22s in Scotland now get free bus travel. It’s an excellent idea but unfortunately it’s been marred by a truly awful implementation of the service to manage it.

simple solution make it free for everyone then there’s no application system to balls up

simple solution make it free for everyone then there’s no application system to balls up

Indeed!

simple solution make it free for everyone then there’s no application system to balls up

+1

I do wonder what the cost of a 100% free public transport service would be compared to our current subsidies, bureaucracy, road use subsidies through Council Tax and general taxation, ill health, climate change etc.

there isn’t nearly enough capacity in the system for 100% free public transport. If you’ve been on any form of transport towards or within london during rush hour, the current (high) costs seem about right.

sure, london isn’t the whole country, but its the bit that most needs and makes best use of public transport

there isn’t nearly enough capacity in the system for 100% free public transport. If you’ve been on any form of transport towards or within london during rush hour, the current (high) costs seem about right.

Carrot Vs Stick though, my interpretation of what happened in Reading is that it’s driven by demand not the cost. I’m not convinced making it free would have a huge impact as it’s the impossibility of using a car at rush hour that dictates how many people use them, not the price. Because there isn’t a cheaper option.

the cost of a ticket from here (near brighton) to london is £60 during rush hour and £20 outside. if it was free I’d take the kids out to london a lot more frequently, and probably during rush hour to get a longer day out. as it is, I take them occasionally, and always off-peak (for obvious reasons).

free transport would also encourage me (and others within commuting distance) to take a job up there, knowing that I don’t have to pay £6k (so own ~£10k more) for a season ticket

free transport would also encourage me (and others within commuting distance) to take a job up there, knowing that I don’t have to pay £6k (so own ~£10k more) for a season ticket

But then the longer term impact would be to drive down wages in London, removing the incentive to spend £6k on a season ticket and 3+ hours a day commuting. Anyway, is it a bad thing if demand for public transport goes up, dig up a few lanes of the M23 and put in an extra line. Driving up public transport use is essential!

Couple that with the post-COVID scenario where commuter trains are still quiet yet you can’t get a seat at the weekends.

Lots of people will still need to drive. But some people would be driving less, using already running public transport… so less fuel used during a fuel crisis. For those still driving regularly… the inflationary pressure on their fuel prices would be reduced, and as a bonus they’d face less congestion, which would mean that they would also be using less fuel.

Win… win… win… including for those who have to drive!

This!

People who don’t/can’t use a bike/transport care only about more roads, bigger roads, more parkings…

They are not getting that the less cars around the better for them.

Yeah, us posh folk with a car, truly the elite class in the UK 😂

Bit dim aren’t you?

It’s not all down to affordability, a lot of the time it’s down to availability as well. Must be nice living somewhere with decent public transport or short travel distances for everything, try not to take it for granted.

to try and say that those in the UK with cars are the ruling elite is just embarrassing.

Nobody said that except you.

Naa, I’m as **** by climate change caused by them as everyone else, I’m just not contributing to it at the moment.

See my point above. I’d love to be in your position but sadly that’s just not possible for us.

Must be nice living somewhere with decent public transport or short travel distances for everything, try not to take it for granted.

How much of your isolation was forced on you, and how much was by choice?

But then the longer term impact would be to drive down wages in London, removing the incentive to spend £6k on a season ticket and 3+ hours a day commuting. Anyway, is it a bad thing if demand for public transport goes up, dig up a few lanes of the M23 and put in an extra line. Driving up public transport use is essential!

Couple that with the post-COVID scenario where commuter trains are still quiet yet you can’t get a seat at the weekends.

why would it drive down wages in london? just by the £6k thats needed for commuters?

its a really bad thing if demand on that line increases. Even post-covid, its standing room only from haywards heath onwards, there just isn’t any capacity, and that’s despite upgrading to 12-car trains. Additionally with crossrail, demand will go up further as getting to heathrow/reading by train becomes a slightly feasable idea.

digging up the m23 is fine, except it stops at the m25. Where no-one wants to be. the land for the extension to central london got sold off years ago, and there simply isn’t space for another.

driving is cheap enough that even trains being free wouldn’t push people off most routes. what it would do is encourage long-distance commuting which is an ecological disaster

How much of your isolation was forced on you, and how much was by choice?

It’s where my work is so, yeah, pretty much no choice (the nuclear industry doesn’t have many employers with similar wages). You’ll be happy to know I’m probably going to be redundant in the next 3 years so can move somewhere with great public transport, more expensive housing and still no employment with an equivalent salary. I can’t wait!

Like I said it must be great to be able to make the choice you have, I honestly am glad for you. But please don’t fall into the trap of thinking that just because you could then everyone can, that’s just daft.