Not seen anything solid yet other than a few who admit they are voting Tory selfishly as it is best for them.

You know this is an argument and criticism directed at Tory voters that I have heard many times over the years however does it not equally apply to the majority of Labour voters? How many of them vote for Labour “…selfishly as it is best for them”?

People say that politics is tribal, and to a certainpoint it is. But I think with a lot of people its down to their own personal experiences, particularly when you’re at an age when you’re forming your poiltical opinions

For my part that was being 15-16 during the miners strike. My journey to school took me past Parkside Colliary which had just been closed down. I saw, every day, bus-loads of riot police all from the south east, on premium overtime. I then saw the kids, some of them good mates, on free schoool meals and living in genuine poverty.

Then I saw a Tory party that didn’t give a shit, with a leader who openly called this mess ‘a price worth paying’

I’m not naive enough not to realise that our economy needed rebalancing and modernising, but it was the way it was done. It was calllous and uncaring, and for a lot of Tory MPs it was an act of revenge and vandalism, and they seemed like they were actively enjoying it! The following years in places like this, all over the north, Wales etc were pretty bloody grim. Mass unemployment in de-industrialised areas was no fun to live in the middle of. Have you ever seen how fast heroin use takes hold in an area devoid of hope? I knew plenty of people who succumbed to that

And I think the present crop of Tory’s are even worse than that lot. They’re totally devoid of empathy or compassion, and are totally self-serving. They still couldn’t give a toss about anyone outside their own wealthy South Eastern enclaves and the oddities/outposts like bits of Yorkshire and Cheshire

So my vote has always been, and always will be ‘anyone but them!’

And if thats regarded as tribal, well I can live with that

If you’re basing your political tastes on the policies of 20, 30 even 40 years ago you might as well stand with your fingers in your ears screaming “I WAS BORN A TORY/LABOUR VOTER AND WILL CHANGE MY OPINIONS TO THAT OF MY CHOSEN PARTY RATHER THAN CHANGE MY PARTY OR EXPECT MY PARTY TO CHANGE FOR ME”.

If you won’t vote for a Party you both trust and are aligned with your views because they aren’t ‘viable’ you have an overly simplistic view of politics and an obsession with winning, this isn’t X-Factor. If you vote for a minor party, or the ‘wrong’ party for the safe seat you live in, you vote still counts, in fact in some ways it’s more important than getting your chosen colour rosette in Westminster. Believe it or not, the major parties want to be elected they spend a huge amount of time pawing over voter data to get an idea of what people are thinking nationally and will amend policies based on it.

does it not equally apply to the majority of Labour voters?

A valid question and I’m sure many do, however there’s a sense of solidarity and altruism among a good deal of Labour supporters that does mark it out in contrast to the Tories.

So “the majority” may be an assumption, but “enlightened self interest” has been a fundamental concept in Western philosophy since Kant and is widely considered to be a valid ethical stance.

If you’re basing your political tastes on the policies of 20, 30 even 40 years ago you might as well stand with your fingers in your ears screaming “I WAS BORN A TORY/LABOUR VOTER AND WILL CHANGE MY OPINIONS TO THAT OF MY CHOSEN PARTY RATHER THAN CHANGE MY PARTY OR EXPECT MY PARTY TO CHANGE FOR ME”.

30 years ago I looked at the Tory party and saw a rich, entitled, self-serving minority, devoid of any obvious humanity, empathy or compassion and an arrogant ‘born to rule’ attitude

I look at the present Tory party and I see exactly the same. As Theresa is fond of saying ‘nothing has changed’

People complain of Tories moving too far right and Labour too far left but I’d rather it that way than being indistinguishable. There does seem a massive opportunity for a centrist party at the mo- but all the main players are vacuous offering more of the same.

If I was a floating voter I wouldnt be able to see past their handling of disabled benefits- shameful.

*brexit has ballsed up conversations like this. Referendum was a bad idea as Ed Millinsnd, and Tony before him said.

Wonder what became of the woman who was trampled by riot police…?

Best I can do at the minute

Short version – ‘took a big knock to help take down Thatcher’, got lucky considering – ie suffered cut to the head, broken clavicle. Died 2007 (unrelated)

Anecdotal account by her partner and eyewitness at the time/events via the link.

Given that, for my tastes, Labour is too authoritarian and right wing (this could change, but hasn’t in terms of official policy despite Corbyn), I’d be unlikely to vote Tory.

I could however justify it with trickle down economics etc. if I chose to (though again, in reality I believe this is firmly a load of bollocks and there seems to be evidence against it, e.g. rising food bank use etc.).

Last two general elections I’ve voted for a local independent candidate. She’s more than halved the incumbent Tory MP’s* majority. Next time she might actually beat him.

*Hugo Swire fyi. Total waste of space!

How many of them vote for Labour “…selfishly as it is best for them”?

Puts hand up. If Labour get in I will pay more tax, I’m pretty sure of that. So to an extent my vote would be selfish (it’s another story, but I won’t be voting for a non-Remain Labour). However, in the broader sense I think higher taxes will lead to a better society, so I would also be voting selfishly by voting Labour.

Tories = more for me now, less for others later.

Vote Green.

“I WAS BORN A TORY/LABOUR VOTER AND WILL CHANGE MY OPINIONS TO THAT OF MY CHOSEN PARTY RATHER THAN CHANGE MY PARTY OR EXPECT MY PARTY TO CHANGE FOR ME”.

Unfortunately, this summed my mam up for years until she voted Lib Dem at the last one. Her dad was a working class tory (read: racist) so she was. **** useless.

The majority of Tory voters will not respond to this thread.

They know that their choices hurt the most vulnerable people in our society, but crucially, do not care.

I couldn’t vote Tory.
I’ve voted Labour (and have twice been a member, not at the moment though), Lib Dem and Green.

None of my real friends are Tories.
I prefer not to socialise or interact with people who prioritise greed and self interest at the expense of the real and genuine suffering of others.

To me, those on the right exemplify the basest traits of human nature – willful ignorance, lack of empathy, contempt for those less fortunate than themselves and a desire to prioritise their own petty self interest over the good of society.

Vote Green.

Some of their policies do come dangerously close to woo (that said so do other parties with support for homeopathy etc).

Tories and Labour lurched too far right and left,

Can you give some examples of these overly left wing policies?

Rusty – get off the fence and say what you really mean!

😀

🙂

Sorry, I’ll try and be less wishy washy in future.

I don’t believe that left always good, so further left is inevitably better.

A balanced left wing democracy would be my preference.
Authoritarian in some things, libertarian in others.

Last two general elections I’ve voted for a local independent candidate. She’s more than halved the incumbent Tory MP’s* majority. Next time she might actually beat him.

*Hugo Swire fyi. Total waste of space!

Ditto but Labour next time.
I think Wright is funded by the tories and too fond of her freebies.

I vote for people, not parties.

My politics, are a mix of Labour, Lib Dem and Green, more Green than Yellow and Red, but I’m also not a fan of the pseudo science and rubbish that they sometimes spout.

I live in Tory heartland, Maggie lived a few miles up the road. You could put a blue rosette on a pig and it’d get voted in, as such Labour, the Lib Dems, and the Greens don’t really even try. (I was a GP member and helped with our 2015 Campaign, we struggled to even find a candidate, and the one we did was inexperienced and awful).

I’m a town councillor, Independent, unaffiliated, and that reflects my current politics. I’m politically homeless.

If there was a general election tomorrow, I’m not sure who I’d vote for, having voted Green, Lib Dem and Labour previously.

Nick Boles (IND, was Con, crossed the floor) is my MP, and to be honest, although I’ve never voted for him, he’s actually a very effective MP. I can see why people would vote for him. One Nation Conservatism as practiced by Nick, Ken Clarke etc, is actually fairly reasonable in the way it operates, but they don’t quite have the balance of people over economy right for my vote. That said, as mentioned, Labour haven’t put a viable candidate up in living memory, the usual Liberal Democrat PPC is a friend of mine, he’s a nice guy but I’d not want him representing me in Parliament, he’s also a town councillor I’ve served with, but he’s not effective at debate, he struggles, he won’t do what needs to be done in my view. Green.. well, we tried that when I was a member of the party, but he was a bit wet. I’m not a member anymore so I don’t know who they’d put forward.

Come May, we’re having District and Parish/Town elections, I’ve been told the ward I’m standing in is un-contested, I’m duly elected now as a result, apparently only a single Town Ward has been contested, which shows that people just don’t want to get involved in local government or the area they live in at a grass roots level anymore. I got involved because I wanted to have an impact on the community I live in, I’m not really one for dogmatic tribal politics; I’ve been a member of a couple of parties in my lifetime, but really I don’t have political ambition, I just want to see things get done.

In terms of District elections, two Councillors in my ward, are also Town Councillors, who I’ve worked along side and have a massive respect for. They’re both standing under a conservative manifesto. For the first time in my life, I’m very likely to vote Tory in those elections.

As I said, I vote for the person, not the politics.

None of my real friends are Tories.
I prefer not to socialise or interact with people who prioritise greed and self interest at the expense of the real and genuine suffering of others.

To me, those on the right exemplify the basest traits of human nature – willful ignorance, lack of empathy, contempt for those less fortunate than themselves and a desire to prioritise their own petty self interest over the good of society.

I am in 100% agreement and feel the same.

Historically I’ve pretty much always voted Labour, Lib Dem or Greens, but I did once vote Tory in the 2015 GE

My MP is Mark Lancaster (he voted against everything in the most recent round of indicative votes) who got back in during 2017 albeit with a greatly reduced majority (I voted for the Labour candidate to try and get rid of the Tories)

With the political events of the last few years one thing is for certain – I’ll never ever be voting Tory ever again – I can’t forgive them for what they’ve done to the country

I agree 100% with Rusty Spanner. Mind you, I’m struggling with labour at the moment. I think that Corbyn and his team are to the most part, just as South-East-Centric as the Tories and absolutely clueless as to the needs and views of the traditional Labour voters (many of which voted UKIP). As to the anti-Semitic tendencies and the snuggling up to any left wing terrorist organisations they can find …….

I think that Corbyn and his team are to the most part, just as South-East-Centric as the Tories and absolutely clueless as to the needs and views of the traditional Labour voters (many of which voted UKIP)

Well this is an unusual complaint. It’s way more common to hear that Corbyn’s paying too much heed to the Kipper tendency in traditional Labour strongholds and abandoning the middle class remainer Labour vote.

Last year I voted Green and locally will do so again.

I’d never vote Tory again, and have a hard time justifying labour.

Btw, today it’s reported that Mays team closed down a Motorway services for her privelige.  That’s exactly the kind of Tory elitism they believe they deserve and every reason right there is never vote for them in current times .

It’s just my opinion, garnered from watching them in action. I may be wrong. I just know that in the two areas I have lived, East Lancs and now Cumbria Corbyn and his chums will just be viewed as left wing intellectuals who are more interested in dogma and political correctness than anything else.

Not quite in line with the original question but I have a real concern about the kind of MPs we will be getting.

At the next election, the newly elected first-time MPs will probably include those who go on to become cabinet ministers in 10 years or so. And I would like these ministers to be some of the brightest and most capable people, who can stand up to the challenges thrust upon our country and make good decisions in the face of malign influences from all quarters, including the CIA, KGB (or whatever it’s called now), China and the tabloid press.

So, if you were one of these types, which party should you stand for? It seems to me that in order to get selected as a Labour Parliamentary candidate you have to be a trade union official these days. Gawd knows what you have to do to get the nod in the Tories. And is it worth joining any other party if you have these ambitions? Never mind your ideology.

I have no political allegiance to any party. They are all a shower of ****** in one way or another. I have voted tory, labour, libdem, UKIP, green (not the looney party, only because I didn’t get he option). The party that gets my vote depends on the big issue of the time, or to stop the worst of a bad bunch getting in, or as a protest vote. Its all a con anyway, governments are dictated to by corporations and banks. That’s where the decisions are made, there is no will for change, they are making plenty thank you very much. Until we can control our own banking system so it works for the people not just the banks, there will always be massive inequality.

Then in the background we have the right/left argument. Divide and conquer, split the population and let them fight among themselves. While the establishment continue as they are

Both Party’s are closed shops. The Tory’s are just recruited from the usual Eton > Oxbridge > right-wing thinktank > Westminster. If you tick all those boxes then you’re in, in most cases without having any notable ability. But this is about to get worse. Once May’s gone we’ll have some hard right headbanger in and every MP who isn’t a rabid pro-Brexit zealot won’t have a sniff at even the most junior cabinet position

And that’s exactly where the labour party is anyway. All non-believers have been banished to the back benches, to be replaced by Corbyns nodding dogs, again regardless of any notable ability

In better news, from today the TIGgers are now officially a political party who those of us who find both main parties equally as unattractive (well… maybe not equally?) can actually vote for instead

We’ve got local Parish elections coming up in May. Had a Conservative leaflet through the door this morning, when I noticed what it was I just went out and threw it in the recycling. It was one of my neighbours who was posting the leaflets. He didn’t look too amused that I’d thrown it out seconds after he’d delivered it 😂

A valid question and I’m sure many do, however there’s a sense of solidarity and altruism among a good deal of Labour supporters that does mark it out in contrast to the Tories.

So “the majority” may be an assumption, but “enlightened self interest” has been a fundamental concept in Western philosophy since Kant and is widely considered to be a valid ethical stance.

Do you really think that there is a majority of Labour voters who are altruistic? I’m sure that there are some but I would have thought that were you to ask “who should pay for these policies?” the answer would be “the rich” where that is a code for “someone who isn’t me”. The flip side of the self interest would be the invisible hand as described by Adam Smith which I’m sure many on the right would point to as an indication of how self interest will lead to the best outcome.

There is no real moral high ground when it comes to politics and no one set of policies is inherently superior. All ideas have their good and bad points no matter if they come from the left or the right.

gonefishin +1

Ideas of left and right are utter bunkum, the idea that you can pigeon hole all of your views into a nice package is mental, the world if more complex.

We need to move away from the party system and just deal with things on a issue by issue basis.

On that what you are doing is giving individual MPs the right to votes as they please without things like the whip system. This would allow MPs to freely group together on and issue by issue basis without being incumbered by the tribalism of the 2 party state.

Our politics need to become much more fluid, and much more about trying to find a compromise that suits everyone, rather than majority rules, we win, f you.

If we give our politicians this kinda freedom, I’d think it needs to be liked with politicians being more accountable to their constituents, and making them vote more with them in mind.

Not a completed idea, just sticking it in here to add to the discussion. So feel free to chip in.

Do you really think that there is a majority of Labour voters who are altruistic?

I think there are many more altruistic Labour voters than Tory voters, yes.
You don’t get many Tory nurses or teachers from the poorer public sector schools.

I’m sure that there are some but I would have thought that were you to ask “who should pay for these policies?” the answer would be “the rich” where that is a code for “someone who isn’t me”.

I disagree.
The way to measure the worth of a society is how it treats it’s most vulnerable members.

We all contribute to that.

I earn very little. I’d be happy to contribute a bit more to help those less fortunate.

All ideas have their good and bad points no matter if they come from the left or the right.

I agree, but some ideas are self evidently and quantifiably just wrong. Penalising the disabled, the deliberate destruction of working communities, removing workers rights, objecting to pay equality, blaming and punishing the victims of selfish policy decisions etc.

These things happen far more often under Tory governments than they do under Labour ones.

I think there are many more altruistic Labour voters than Tory voters, yes.
You don’t get many Tory nurses or teachers from the poorer public sector schools.

That’s not actually an answer to the question I asked. Have you ever considered a career in politics? 😉

🙂

Without asking them all, it’s an impossible question to answer.

As I’m sure you knew when you posted it!

If someone can explain the compassion and empathy inherent in right wing free market ideology I’m happy to listen.
Not heard a valid explanation yet, but I’m all 👂’s. 🙂

kelvin

Subscriber

You are quite correct. He was Straight Left though, yes? And Murray? Both Straight Left & CPB?

He was a journalist and manager at Straight Left, yes; he’s never been a member of any of CBP or its many spinoffs and inbred cousins.

Murray works a day and a half per week for Labour on secondment from Unite. I understand why you’re portraying him as the power behind the throne but it doesn’t seem to have any truth in it, no more than Milne having been a member of the communist party that joined Labour in 2016 rather than being a lifelong Labour member that’s never been a member of the communist party.

Do you really think that there is a majority of Labour voters who are altruistic?

You phrase that as if I said there was. I honestly don’t know and haven’t claimed to.

Be careful with the moral relativism though, it can only take you so far before everyone starts to think you’re just a dick.

51 used to be the age when voters switched to Tory. I’m not so naive as to think there are no decent Conservative MPs. If I lived in a constituency with one, I’d consider voting for them. But no chance with Adam Afrerie.

Right of centre Blairite policies are my preference. Without winning that middle ground, labour will remain out of power. Those were the words of Alistair Campbell. And he’s not wrong.

I won’t vote for Old Labour on principle.

Without winning that middle ground, labour will remain out of power. Those were the words of Alistair Campbell. And he’s not wrong.

This would seem to be the intuitve answer, but we have to concede that nobody really knows anything about politics anymore. Even Campbell.

It’s evident that so much of the country just wants another Blair, but without the warmongering. Labour are arguably playing a risky game in not offering that.

Right of centre Blairite policies are my preference. Without winning that middle ground, labour will remain out of power. Those were the words of Alistair Campbell. And he’s not wrong.

New Labour did a lot to assuage my doubts about them as a party, but they were a bunch of champagne socialists in the end who took us into an illegal war.

I’ve always felt that Labour can’t be trusted – they might claim to have the interest of the disadvantaged at heart, but I’m not sure I’ve ever seen the evidence.

I have the same lack of trust about the Tories these days – hopefully Brexit will screw them as a political party for the foreseeable.

FWIW, I vote on personality of MP these days – who do I trust to represent my views as closely as possible and more often than not, Vince has been my man.

PS: What chakaping said whilst I was writing.

And now they’ve really jumped the shark.

What? They’ve started bikeglamping.

It’s not so much about would Labour voters be prepared to pay more tax, it’s more about the corporations that pay sfa like Amazon, Google, Facebook and Margaret Hodge’s family firm making their contribution and firms like Virgin and Boots not being given free rein to rip off the NHS.