Corbyn’s inner circle (Milne, Murray and co) left the communist party to join Labour and his team in 2016 (after the EU referendum went the way they wanted). Do you trust them not to implement “extreme left” policies once they are the power behind the throne of a “Labour” government?

Not really answered my question…

Re-Nationalising utilities and trains isn’t exactly extreme considering plenty of them are run for us by other countries nationalised companies so we pay them and then the use the profits from the UK to subsidise their own countries infrastructure.

That was 1974 and a Tory government – seems like you don’t remember it either

Late 70s and it was Labour.

3 day week started jan 1974 under conservatives

[according to wiki – just in case drac’s “looking things up online” embargo is still in 👍]

ps I’ve never voted tory in my puff, just to clear that up! Just expressing my opinion that the system is gubbed! 😆

I’m beginning to worry about the rise of far right populism and nationalism across the continent (and in the us).
I was talking to an older person who told me that they wanted to leave eu because it wasn’t what they signed up to. I asked about the peace project aspect that’s been a major thread since the beginning. They told me that wasn’t needed because “that sort of thing couldn’t happen now”, which strikes me as forgetting the lessons history.
Nationalism is creating divisions as it always does.

That was 1974 and a Tory government – seems like you don’t remember it either

Nah, winter of discontent was 78 – 79 under a labour government.

3 day week started jan 1974 under conservatives

[according to wiki – just in case drac’s “looking things up online” embargo is still in 👍]

Your Google skills are slipping.

Current Labour policies are not that radical. Don’t believe the hype.

Whether Corbyn has fluffed his big chance by losing too much support over his stance on Brexit is another matter.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three-Day_Week

3 day week: (from 1st Jan 74. I remember the power cuts) Tories. Took us into the EU and everything got better…

winter of discontent was 78/79 yed. But the 3-day week was Tory incompetence. I was there.

What’s very interesting is the numbe of people who just assume that the industrial problems were only apparent under Labour.
Why is that?

Tory propaganda from the 1980s chiefly, I’d suggest.

winter of discontent was 78/79 yed. But the 3-day week was Tory incompetence. I was there.

Oh aye seems a bit mixed up, talking about 2 different events.  😳

I’m not a tory voter but have lived in a ward for 30 years that would vote for the proverbial donkey with a blue rosette on it – despairing at the choice of local election candidates. I remember the 3-day week and power-cuts in the 1970s as well as the miner’s strike in the 1980s as I was doing an industrial relations module as part of my degree at the same time – it prompted much debate. Our politics is suffering due to the 2-party systems and the failure to seek compromise – we have successive Governments that fail to plan and make meaningful investment become the terms of parliament – investment in infrastructure, social housing and care is suffering in comparison to our European peers.

Labour spends too much.
Tories spend too little.

That is the myth. Check out government spending of the last 40 years or so. Tories have spent a considerable amount more and have hardly ever run surpluses. IIRC Labour have had at least three. Tories I think perhaps one.

Not that I’m advocating that as balancing the books is a load of bollocks too. If the public sector runs a defecit then the private sector should mop up the slack in resources. But MMT is the next level of discussion.

Never understand why this isn’t more widely known.

With the first question I would say Conservatives generally think the ‘market’ takes care of things best. It clearly doesn’t – as start by defining ‘best’ and it will only serve a few the best.

While we’re on the subject I would go one further and ask the average Church-going Tory how they reconcile Christian values with neo-liberal ideology?

Because the two are in no way compatible.

handybar wrote:

Labour spends too much.
Tories spend too little.

Yet the national debt has almost doubled unded the Tory government, up from 1 trillion in 2009/10 to 1.8 trillion – and this despite Tory Austerity?

Your Google skills are slipping.

I got told off for using google so I used wiki instead
Saved me from getting confused over two different things 👍

Awwww! Or we still crying over that? Poor Neal.

Yeah, If you like.

I just thought it was a bit sad for a moderator to be so desperate to score points that’s all.

Didn’t add anything to the discussion, just had a pointless dig at someone posting something that was actually relevant to the discussion.

But hey, you carry on, whatever floats yer boat 👍

Ok. It’s genuinely been interesting.

Some opinions and views I find alien, some I hadn’t truly explored in my mind if I’m honest and some I very much agree with.

kelvin

Subscriber

Corbyn’s inner circle (Milne, Murray and co) left the communist party to join Labour and his team in 2016 (after the EU referendum went the way they wanted). Do you trust them not to implement “extreme left” policies once they are the power behind the throne of a “Labour” government?

Seumas Milne has never been a member of the communist party, and joined the Labour Party in 1979 (according to the Times). HTH.

Not really answered my question…

What’s in the manifesto has never proven to be the complete business of an elected government. Ever.

joined the Labour Party in 1979

You are quite correct. He was Straight Left though, yes? And Murray? Both Straight Left & CPB?

Anyway, I voted Labour at the last election… but claiming that key people running that party now are not “hard left” is laughable. Both main parties are being dragged to more extreme positions… for me it’s more of a worry where the Conservative party is going… but there’s plenty of worry left for the party that would seek to replace them as the main party of government.

Labour spends too much.
Tories spend too little on other people but plenty on themselves.

Didn’t Osborne buy a horse paddock on expenses? How austere of him

Showed their hand long ago and what they are all about. Always seem to be riots when they’re in power!

Wonder what became of the women who was trampled by riot police horses in the poll tax riots. You know one of the “hooligans” “thugs” “criminals” “pond life” photo’s of participants named and shamed all over the tabloids, yet she seems to have been erased from history.

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/video/zoom-in-to-mounted-police-charging-through-crowd-of-news-footage/1B03323_0004

handybar wrote:

Labour spends too much.
Tories spend too little.

rone wrote:
That is the myth. Check out government spending of the last 40 years or so. Tories have spent a considerable amount more and have hardly ever run surpluses. IIRC Labour have had at least three. Tories I think perhaps one.

nbt wrote:

Yet the national debt has almost doubled unded the Tory government, up from 1 trillion in 2009/10 to 1.8 trillion – and this despite Tory Austerity?

Simplifying a bit:

Handybar is only semantically wrong, Labour overstretches itself resulting with the Conservatives having to pick up the tab.

Simplifying a bit:

Handybar is only semantically wrong, Labour overstretches itself resulting with the Conservatives having to pick up the tab.

Some data actually shows that over the 70 years or so up to 2014 or thereabouts Labour borrows less than the Conservatives and Labour has always repaid debt more often than the Conservatives, and has always repaid more debt, on average.

I don’t think we’ve ever had a genuinely conservative government in fiscal terms. Classic conservative, yes. Social conservatives. Even neo-conservative (you could argue Tony Blair was closer to being neo conservative than anything else)

So the justification for voting Tory, so far, is because they are not Labour / Corbyn / Blair / Winter of Discontent?

We just need British Leyland, Scargill / Miners, and Michael Foot for a full house bingo.

Yep the 1970s were terrible with the lowest level of inequality in the post war period and people on average incomes could buy houses even in London. Outrageous!

So the justification for voting Tory

Not seen anything solid yet other than a few who admit they are voting Tory selfishly as it is best for them. I would guess that is why most people vote tory and explains why on average people sway to tory vote when they hit their 40’s and are more stable, have more money etc,.

Interesting to see the results of the last 50 years of tory biased media in this thread and how that helps to get the votes of people who are not even better off themselves with a tory government let alone the even less privileged.

It’s scary how many seemingly smart people revert to cliché when talking politics.

^^ good point kerley! I live in a Tory constituency and know people who are struggling and renting but have only ever voted tory. You hear ‘I couldn’t vote for Corbyn’ so you ask which policies they don’t like and then they look a bit bemused, go quiet and then the whataboutery starts. Neo-liberalism has screwed this country and a bit of Keynesianism would be good for business too. At the last election Corbyn’s manifesto was costed (unlike the tory’s) and received support from 150 international economists. Anyway, what did that loathsome BJ say about business?

Interesting to see the results of the last 50 years of tory biased media in this thread and how that helps to get the votes of people who are not even better off themselves with a tory government let alone the even less privileged.

Exactly this – as Nye Bevan pointed out, the genius of the Tories is to convince people to vote for them even though it is actually against their own interests.

https://www.azquotes.com/quote/604343

I used to be a Conservative voter for the reasons earlier in this thread, but even before Brexit it was too much for me to swallow. And now they’ve really jumped the shark. I’m not alone I suspect.

The rise of the banks changed everything. The tories would have happily let them grow as did New Labour, indeed the tories release the big bang and subsequent deregulation. But the rise of the banks was a global phenomenon and no country could really escape it – basically a form of American soft power.
I’m still surprised how little anger is directed at the banking sector. Much of it has instead been deflected to other things and contributed to things like brexit, trump, etc yet the bankers still pocket their bonuses.

The Conservatives have been the biggest borrowers over the last 70 years

I think 1997 was the first year I could officially vote. I didn’t because I was 18 & couldn’t have cared less about politics.

The Lib Dems probably align with my personal views most these days. I would be more likely to vote for Tory over Labour though. Blair, Brown & Corbyn have been a succession of weapons grade d*ckheads.

The reality is, I just don’t care enough about politics though, and nor do I want to.

Not seen anything solid yet other than a few who admit they are voting Tory selfishly as it is best for them. I would guess that is why most people vote tory and explains why on average people sway to tory vote when they hit their 40’s and are more stable, have more money etc,.

You obviously didn’t read my post then?

‘ a succession of weapons grade d*ckheads.’
That’s the kind of analysis, comparison and critique that guides some people’s voting intentions.

What @jakester said. Tories and Labour lurched too far right and left, so will vote Lib Dem again and hope and pray that lots of other people do too!