Al, perhaps you ought to try reading cyclecraft, look up vehicular cycling, read the latest IAM book on cycling (the author of cyclecraft being a contributor). There's two positions on the road, secondary – roughly where the lh car wheels are, and primary, either in the middle of the lane or where the rh wheels would be. Neither are riding in the gutter, the closer to it you are the less escape room you have, and more easily you are to be missed. And bear in mind the hwc says in overtaking a bike to leave as much room as with a small car (yeah, like that happens).
Most car driver where I am are fine, some are utter prats re giving cyclists room – this morning I had some idiot coming in the other direction shouting to 'get over', on a road with not much traffic other than a handful of vehicles in each direction, I'm 2 ft out from the curb, and even if I was further over you *still* couldn't get a car though.

edit – just seen you 1-3 ft – 1 ft's way too close, anyone clips you and you'll probably be on yer arse

1ft is when I'm undertaking stationary traffic.

Fairy-'nuff

FWIW, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicular_cycling#Lane_control

(john) "Franklin advocates the primary riding position as the normal position and the secondary riding position only when it is safe, reasonable and necessary to allow faster traffic to pass. [9]"

Perhaps the cyclists you're complaining of are simply enforcing the overtake-cyclist rule – ie if they're not going to be 'allowed' as much room as a small car, then they'll take it anyway.

Most drivers that pass me *do* leave that much room since I ride a recumbent on-road and there's the WTF element (equally there's some idiots that pass/swerve in close not realising I'm a bit longer and a bit faster than a lot of bikes they pass – or mebbe they'd do that anyway)

Try to 'enjoy' the ride, this will keep you the most alert and attentive. Plodding along in a routine fashion makes you more vulnerable and more likely to lose concentration [just like the drivers], varying your route, even just a little can help with this.

The more' alive' you are when riding your bike, the more alive you'll stay.

Its all open to interpretation. If al is using the roads I think ( the main roads in Al?) they are generally big and wide with plenty of room for cars to overtake safely. Cars will often be speeding as well – fast for urban roads.

However I still suspect from this and previous debates Al rides far closer to the kerb than I would in a similar situation.

That's me in that pic!

Seriously though I think we need to agree to disagree on that one TJ.

with your dayglo sam browne on?

aye – as I said above Al – You and I would adopt different positions – and altho we are in the same city we are using very different roads

i ride mostly on the top of my drop bars and the centre pull brakes are shit at best. i ride within that capability (mostly)

Have you considered fitting a different stem, flipping the stem to point up, or putting more spacers under it? If you ride mostly on the tops, it suggests that you have your bike setup in a much more racing position than your body is built for, and that getting the bars setup right would mean you could make use of them properly. A lot of people who buy 'proper' road bikes have this problem (I would have had if I'd kept my bike in the no spacers, stem pointing down setup that it was originally setup in – instead I stuck it in a more touring position, and it is fine on drops and hoods).

Joe

>Cars will often be speeding as well – fast for urban roads

Possibly more reason to be a bit further out than on slower roads – so you're seen further back rather than disappearing into the roadside clutter. Part of my commutes on a 50mph dual carriageway, used to be a national…not that many years ago, heard something behind, looked back to see a stationary car just behind me – I think I just missed being rear-ended 😮 (it may have been in twilight, but I've some bright rear lights that would have been on)

cover the brakes at all times.

And every time you need to use them in a panic, don't just swear at the idiot driver, once you've calmed down, take a while to think about what you did wrong to get into the situation that made you emergency brake. Regardless of fault, any need to emergency brake is a sign that you weren't observant enough, and weren't keeping an eye on the idiots / traffic around you enough. The more you learn from those experiences, the better at avoiding them you get.

Joe

TandemJeremy – Member
with your dayglo sam browne on?

I use a tabard actually, but only at night.

>any need to emergency brake is a sign that you weren't observant enough, and weren't keeping an eye on the idiots / traffic around you enough. The more you learn from those experiences, the better at avoiding them you get.

Not sure that's entirely true – or if it is, it reinforces the idea of staying *further* out. Last commute home, wide-ish road, car pulls into middle from right then dithers, not enough room for a car to get through, would be for me but I start slowing and there's a car overtaking on my rhs. It slows, but as it almost stops it also swings over to the left (not that it can get through the gap, its about 4-5 ft) reducing my roadspace to about 1ft – although his rear wing is past me, there's a bloody boat trialer next to my lug'ole. Cue emergency stop 😮
About the only thing I see I could have done would to have been riding about 4ft out from the curb in the first place (which comes back to Al's complaint…)

Joe – absolutely – reflective practice I know that as.

Just occasionally you get unavoidable ones but rarely. ( kid running out from behind a van – that sort of thing.)

jond – Member

………….
About the only thing I see I could have done would to have been riding about 4ft out from the curb in the first place (which comes back to Al's complaint…)

which I think is where you should have been

Possibly – I'd normally be about 3 foot out anyway on that section anyway, which ought to be enough (I'll have a nother look tonight) – I think the bloke simply forgot he had a trailer behind, even if I'd been further out I think he'd still have cut in. Last week I had some dick swerve past me as I was about to pass centrally between the curb and the pedestrian reservation bollards in the centre of the roads on another part of my route – dunno how he missed either me or the bollards !

Last week I had some dick swerve past me as I was about to pass centrally between the curb and the pedestrian reservation bollards in the centre of the roads on another part of my route – dunno how he missed either me or the bollards !

You'd have avoided that by being closer to the kerb.

slightly relevant hi-jack/

jond, just clicked who you might be.. you on ADUK perchance?

Apparently we've sold 500 IAM Cycling books so far, I was a cynic I'll admit but it looks like it might end up being a more 'accessible' version of Cyclecraft then that's a good thing

>You'd have avoided that by being closer to the kerb

Absolutely not – there's no room to get a bike and a car through the gap between the bollards. That's the whole point about staying in the middle thought that sort of road constriction, it dissuades the vast majority of drivers from a last moment overtake/swerve as you're entering the restriction. Leave more room and you're more likely to get someone try to squeeze through, stuffing you into the kerb.

Sorry I forgot my 😉

Andy – Advance Driving UK ? – no, 'fraid not, tho' I'm curious as to who my possible alter-ego may be 😉

About the nearest I've got is a copy of Motorcycle Roadcraft in the bookcase – not that I've ridden a motorcycle for some years – I was tempted to get hold of that IAM book tho', in case it's got any useful tips.

>Sorry I forgot my 😉

Apologies, I should have guessed 🙂

And of course every commuter needs a set of these

>Advance Driving UK ?

Tho' having just spotted a 'should cyclists have insurance?' thread over there (tho' I have now, as a ctc member) I'm tempted to register and put my tuppenyworth in 😉

jond – Member
>Advance Driving UK ?

Tho' having just spotted a 'should cyclists have insurance?' thread over there (tho' I have now, as a ctc member) I'm tempted to register and put my tuppenyworth in

Yeah, Advanced Drivers are generally more enlightened but not always. Did you see my "old ladies with shopping trolleys should have insurance" . response?? 8)

There is indeed another JonD out there, ADI, IAM observer, Lotus driving, cycling instructor..

The IAM book is a good read, like I said, a slimmed down more accessible Cyclecraft.

Junkyard – Member

In short it depends!

Yep, that's worked for me for the last 14 years 🙂 but perhaps I should read more books….

As herbie hancock woulda say — go round the outside – round the outside!!

>Did you see my "old ladies

I have now 🙂

Very few people know how to cycle safely on traffic. The guys on here who do are getting flamed by people who should know better.

Position yourself way out in the road and remove the stupid overtaking option.

I think it's very difficult to generalise about road position. There's parts of my commute where I'm as far left as possible and parts where I'll take more share of the road. I'll move around to avoid poor road surfaces and will happily overtake on the inside or outside of traffic depending on where the gaps are. If I'm moving at the same speed as traffic I'll ride anywhere on the road I want.

The hazard of overtaking or undertaking stationary traffic is often peds crossing the road between vehicles without looking. The other big hazard is drivers being courteous and leaving gaps for people to pull in or out of junctions- that needs a combination of good observation and occasionally spider sense.

Only 1 person seemed to have 'fessed up to having fun. For me the urban part of my commute is 'playing with the cars'

I was thinking about this on my way in this morning.

It wouldn't surprise me if I was not commuting in text-book terms, and no doubt I can still improve. But is an "expert" who has written a book better placed to comment than me, with my 20 year of commuting, 10 on the roads on which I currently commute? I'm not going to say I'm perfect but I've only had a couple of minor accidents, avoidable and mostly caused by others, and mostly well in the past. My riding has changed over the years with an emphasis on safety.

I just don't buy it that the author of a book can be "right" for every situation – there is a range of "correct" road positions.

I think it is true of a lot of complex situations (not just road travel) that good judgement is rarely a black and white issue. The best you can say is that experience and balance are brought to bear and the decision taken in that manner is correct, whatever the decision is. The critical thing is that the more vulnerable party must make the decision and the other party just has to wear it – which is where I came in yesterday. If a rider calls it unsafe to let a car past he cannot be "wrong", assuming that he's made that judgement in a fair and balanced manner.

Only 1 person seemed to have 'fessed up to having fun. For me the urban part of my commute is 'playing with the cars'

Personally I enjoy my commute more the busier it is! It feels like I'm making better progress aginst the traffic when its busier