Hello all, I've recently taken to cycling to work, which has cut my 45min walk down to 10min ride. However my ride takes me along one very busy road which I can't avoid, since I work in town.

Now I've read on here that alot of people seem to think undertaking is a big no-no whilst riding on the road. But I'm sure I was taught to always ride on the inside, plus overtaking on the outside then cutting back in seems to be quite erratic… so what's the STW massive's views to riding on the road? (I'm sure this has already been covered but a quick search didn't bring anything obvious up).

My main aims are to arrive at work alive.
Get to work as fast as possible/build upon my explosive muscles (or whatever that type of strength is called).
Try not to annoy too many car drivers.

Watch some chris akrigg videos, then see all cars as potential playthings to ride over and jump on.

http://www.singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/road-positioning-over-or-undertaking-on-a-bike

^^ Fill yer boots ^^

Don't worry too much about car drivers. I'd place my priority in staying alive. Its rare for impatience to boil over into assault with a deadly weapon.

Do whatevers safe.

Undertaking is bad (who other than learners or cyclists checks their inside wing mirror before turning left?), and how many passengers will check before opening their door?

If you ever do your motorbike test they point out at regular intervals that it makes not one blind bit of difference what they should have done, at the end of the day its you that will be in hospital/dead not their car so you have to take responsibility for their actions.

I usualy overtake as if the trafic is slow enough to overtake then you should be riding in the middle of your lane anyway to prevent cars overtaking you. Otherwise stick to the point in the road where the cars inside tyres should be.

I only undertake when traffic is stopped or fairly slow.

There's no rules set in stone about how you commute as far as 'always ride on the left' , 'never undertake' or things like that, you just need to ride defensively. There's a couple of books available (I think) that describe this, but really it's just common sense and experience.

The danger with undertaking is (obviously), that a car will turn left without warning, either into a junction, or a house, garage etc. If that happens when you're in the driver's blindspot you're in trouble. If it's a truck or other large vehicle then you're probably dead. So you need to be especially vigilent coming up to a junction on the inside if cars can turn left from your lane.

If you don't like going on the inside (fine by me.) Why not go round the outside if you are carefull, just carry on until the traffic moves again then pull in.

Number one thought is don't hide in the gutter. Ride out to give yourself plenty of wiggle room, and you will find that cars tend to give you the same space to your right that you have taken to your own left. I ride in the smooth strip of road where the nearside wheels of cars normally go – usually a yard out from the edge and never in the debris and drain covers.

Don't forget that you are completely in the right in asserting your choice about when it is safe to allow yourself to be overtaken. Drivers are not free to take a calculated risk when they're risking nothing of their own in doing so.

The danger with undertaking is (obviously), that a car will turn left without warning, either into a junction, or a house, garage etc.

Or the car you are undertaking has flashed a driver coming the other way to allow him to do the same….

glenp – Member
Don't forget that you are completely in the right in asserting your choice about when it is safe to allow yourself to be overtaken.

IS the the HWC or your rules?

Why not go round the outside if you are carefull, just carry on until the traffic moves again then pull in.

That's exactly what I currently do… whilst cussing repeatedly as the cars are speeding up and I'm frantically peddling to keep overtaking!

cynic-al – Member
glenp – Member
Don't forget that you are completely in the right in asserting your choice about when it is safe to allow yourself to be overtaken.

IS the the HWC or your rules?

My copy of the HWC is currently on loan to a friend so I can't check, but I'm 99% sure that's pretty much the gist of what it says – cyclists are entitled to as much room when being overtaken as when another car is being overtaken (i.e cyclists don't need to get real close to the curb or whatever to let the car go past, the driver needs to wait until it is safe for them to go on the wrong side of the road)

Or I may have totally misunderstood.

As for the OP, personally, I undertake in traffic if there is space to do so, but slowly. And not at junctions either.

That's the way it is put by CTC and is the official line. Your number one position is fully out in your lane, and then you may decide to swing to the left to allow cars past if you judge the conditions to be safe. It isn't up to the guy in the ar to decide if he fancies risking your life, it's up to you.

Therefore it is crucial that you don't adopt road positioning and body language such that the default is to invite cars to overtake you before assessing the situation first. We have a right to use the road, not the gutter at the edge of the road.

the danger of overtaking is that cars drift out meaning you have to go fully on to the other side of the road and if there are no gaps you cannot nip back in when oncoming traffic requires this.
You need to decide which is the best option. My commute involves narrow roads so I choose to undertake but I know where all the turns are to be extra careful and not undertake then.
In short it depends!

Here's a good page to have a read of, esp the first point: Bikeradar road positioning

Basically you should only move to the secondary position (ie not dominating the middle of your lane) if you do not endanger yourself in the process. If you ride in the edge of the road you are endangering yourself all of the time, well, a lot anyway. The point is not to be provocative to drivers, but rather to be noticed and assert your right to be there and be safe.

It isn't up to the guy in the ar to decide if he fancies risking your life, it's up to you.

Or, as I put it: "I'll do the thinking for you".

cynic-al – Member
I only undertake when traffic is stopped or fairly slow

hmmm weird, i only overtake traffic when its stopped or fairly slow.

but my weedy legs will only spin me out at 20-25mph.

Cyclecraft, by John Franklin, is widely regarded as definitive.

Richard Ballantine's City Cycling covers much the same ground.

HWC says "keep to the left" does it not?

I'm only pointing this out as I see too many twonk cyclists holding up traffic where they could be safely overtaken.

I have never seen that al – I see far too many cyclists putting themselves in danger by riding too close to the left. I have never seen a cyclist holding up traffic where they could be safely passed

Don't think HWC says stay to the left at all. For example it does say that two abreast is permissible.

And to refer to someone as a "twonk" because they are keeping themselves safe and seen is feeding into the mindset that gets cyclists killed. To repeat – that the car driver thinks it is safe to overtake is irrelevant, because in making that judgement they are not risking anything themselves. The choice is down to the more vulnerable party.

Of course, sometimes neither over- nor under-taking is safe in which case I simply sit in the queue and get my breath back.

No mention of "keep to the left" in the HWC rules for cyclists…
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_069837

I've always thought it 180 degrees wrong that HWC says to ride in single file if the road is narrow and has a crest or corner, since that implies riding to the left at exactly the point you should be riding out to be seen and control the road.

Ride assertively not aggressively

do not ride in the gutter.

Assume no car driver has ever seen you and they all will do the most stupid and dangerous thing possible

cover the brakes at all times.

Be observant and give clear signals

Ride assertively not aggressively

do not ride in the gutter.

Assume no car driver has ever seen you and they all will do the most stupid and dangerous thing possible

cover the brakes at all times.

Be observant and give clear signals

nice. totally agree, especially 3, absolutely especially if you're being a bit naughty.

I'd add – learn to side hop kerbs if you can't already. Can be a very useful skill if you end up being squeezed.

Ride assertively not aggressively

do not ride in the gutter.

Assume no car driver has ever seen you and they all will do the most stupid and dangerous thing possible

cover the brakes at all times.

Be observant and give clear signals

nice. totally agree, especially 3, absolutely especially if you're being a bit stupid and dangerous yourself.

I'd add – learn to side hop kerbs if you can't already. Can be a very useful skill if you end up being squeezed.

Might be useful one day, I guess. But quite frankly you should never get anywhere near the kerb.

I've never had to do it, although I admit I don't live in a city.

cover the brakes at all times?

im certainly guilty of that, i rarely ride in the drops or on the hoods.

Undertake – I'd rather get forced into the curb than into on coming traffic. Just watch out at side streets.

Traffic makes city commuting fun!

Cover the brakes at all times means minimum reaction time if you need an emergency stop. It could make the difference between hitting something and not.

I have flat bars and disc brakes on all my bikes partly for this reason

Danny79 – Member
No mention of "keep to the left" in the HWC rules for cyclists…

It's in the general section.

TJ I don't care what you've seen, I know what I've seen and it just gives cyclists a bad name.

The ignorance of those on here who think that cyclists can never be wron is laughable.

SOOBalias – Member

cover the brakes at all times?

im certainly guilty of that, i rarely ride in the drops or on the hoods.

I cover my brakes when riding on the hoods, can you not do that?

Do you actually ride in the same city as me? or is it possible your interpretation is not the same as mine?

I have never seen what you describe. I think from what you have said you ride too far to the left. The vast majority of cyclists do so

Cyclists don't hold up cars anyway -even if you force them to wait behind you for a few seconds as at the nxt jam the car is behind the same car they would have been.

As for giving cyclists a bad name – better than being dead.

I agree with what TJ says. To further his point about expecting cars to do stupid things ive found making eye contact works wonders. I dont really know why but if you are looking straight at someone they will see you far more often than if you are lookign somewhere else. Must be some inbuilt mechanism or something! Especially useful with cars pulling out from the left.

TandemJeremy – Member
Do you actually ride in the same city as me? or is it possible your interpretation is not the same as mine?

Yes to both. Not all incidents within the city.

I think from what you have said you ride too far to the left in my opinion.

Fixed that for you.

I'm not petrified of being overtaken and it's safe on much of my commute.

The ignorance, al, is on your part. And it would be laughable if it wasn't so dangerous. As TJ says, in most urban situations the car will not get far ahead anyway and you'll be filtering past them at the next queue.

The law categorically does NOT require you to stick to the left all the time, and even where you are advised to do that you should never get closer than two or three full feet from the gutter (I think it says 50cms and is to be increased to 75cms). Plus if the road is not wide enough for you and a car plus all the sensible gaps then you really should not decide to invite cars to squeeze past.

Just because you are not frightened to be squeezed past, doesn't mean other cyclists draw the line at the same point. It is up to them to make their own judgement.

sorry MSP, i said i rarely ride on the hoods, i could, but i dont

i ride mostly on the top of my drop bars and the centre pull brakes are shit at best. i ride within that capability (mostly)

I ride more road than off.

I'm prob 1-3 feet out on my commute depending on the situation (the roads vary). Much of it is fast flowing with enough space for me lots of visibilty on wide kerbs/side roads etc.

What I am talking about is cyclists in these situations being 6-8 feet out, holding traffic up when there is absolutely no need. I guess as I know the roads and situations I am talking about some might think I am qualified to comment 🙄

EDIT if you're actually listening – I very rarely get "squeezed past" – perhaps that says something about the roads and my positioning? Oh and lots of the roads have sufficient gaps such that I'm not catching up with cars.

Sounds like you're on a nice wide road most of the time then.

It's still the rider's choice though. A cyclist can't be holding up traffic – because he is traffic himself and has the same right to be there as any other. Doesn't mean they can be inconsiderate, I agree, but I don't believe that happens very often. Certainly compared to riding too far in, which I reckon about three quarters of urban riders are guilty of.