[Closed] Christopher Hitchins dies age 62

So does that mean god won that argument? 😉

Sounds like he had a sad life and never really did anything positive. There'll be plenty of folk who did a whole lot more for humanity, but whom he may have looked down upon. A death is always sad, but I can see nothing in his obituary that makes me wish this wasn't the first time I'd heard of him.

God rest his soul.

So does that mean god won that argument?

Nope. Nature, naturised his ass.

/in before the usual suspects turn this into the usual bun fight.

Sounds like he had a sad life and never really did anything positive. There'll be plenty of folk who did a whole lot more for humanity, but whom he may have looked down upon. A death is always sad, but I can see nothing in his obituary that makes me wish this wasn't the first time I'd heard of him.

I have the sneaky feeling you may have heard of him, otherwise you came to your conclusion awfully quickly.

Sounds like he had a sad life and never really did anything positive.

really? do you really don't know anything about him at all do you.

In God Is Not Great, Hitchens contends that:

above all, we are in need of a renewed Enlightenment, which will base itself on the proposition that the proper study of mankind is man and woman [referencing Alexander Pope]. This Enlightenment will not need to depend, like its predecessors, on the heroic breakthroughs of a few gifted and exceptionally courageous people. It is within the compass of the average person. The study of literature and poetry, both for its own sake and for the eternal ethical questions with which it deals, can now easily depose the scrutiny of sacred texts that have been found to be corrupt and confected. The pursuit of unfettered scientific inquiry, and the availability of new findings to masses of people by electronic means, will revolutionize our concepts of research and development. Very importantly, the divorce between the sexual life and fear, and the sexual life and disease, and the sexual life and tyranny, can now at last be attempted, on the sole condition that we banish all religions from the discourse. And all this and more is, for the first time in our history, within the reach if not the grasp of everyone.[128]

I like how the obituary in the Guardian conveniently leaves out the rather large fact that Hitchins had been a member of the Socialist Workers Party/International Socialists. Being a former Trot explains more than anything else Hitchins's impressive political acrobatics, and his divorce from the reality of life of the workers in who's name he once purported to support revolution.

RIP another waffling middle-class transient revolutionary.

"violent, irrational, intolerant, allied to racism and tribalism and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry"

His quote on religion could apply to many things, including some members on this forum 😉

Say what you like about the Hitch, but there's no denying he was a brilliant rhetorician.

I enjoyed the way he used to eviscerate his opponents, in theological debates.

I didn't agree with his stance on Iraq though.

I didn't agree with his stance on Iraq though.

I don't think he did sometimes.

Im going to spend the day watching Hitchens clips on YouTube. A life spent railing against authoritarianism and hypocricy, I can't think of anyone I admire more.

I liked Hitchens although I didn't always agree with his politics and views. He was a cool guy who said it how he saw it and so few do these days.

Sad News... RIP.

I like how the obituary in the Guardian conveniently leaves out the rather large fact that Hitchins had been a member of the Socialist Workers Party/International Socialists.

From the Guardian:

His socialism was always essentially internationalist, particularly since the English working classes responded sluggishly to literature he handed out at factory gates for the International Socialists, a Trotskyist group he joined from 1966 to 1976.

Sad News... RIP.

Still, we can all take comfort from knowing that he'll be sleeping peacefully in the arms of baby Jesus tonight.

he has gone to a better place

Not a big figure in my life but I am thinking of Whoppit at this tough time.

RIP another waffling middle-class MILLIONAIRE transient revolutionary.

boxelder - Member
Sounds like he had a sad life and never really did anything positive.

No, you don't know anything about Hitchens at all. A great life well lived.

Nature's first green is gold,
Her hardest hue to hold
Her early leaf's a flower;
But only so an hour.
Then leaf subsides to leaf.
So Eden sank to grief,
So dawn goes down to day.
Nothing gold can stay.

Robert Frost. "Nothing Gold Can Stay".

That is all.

boxelder, you've shown yourself up as a massive ignoranus - no, that's not a mis-sprlling

RIP C.H., one of the great debaters of our age

I like how the obituary in the Guardian conveniently leaves out the rather large fact that Hitchins had been a member of the Socialist Workers Party/International Socialists

Yiu need to read it more carefully.

His socialism was always essentially internationalist, particularly since the English working classes responded sluggishly to literature he handed out at factory gates for the International Socialists, a Trotskyist group he joined from 1966 to 1976.

David Frum, conservative, speech writer to Bush and great friend of Hitchens remembers

"He especially liked gallows humor. When the nurses asked him, in that insinuatingly cheerful way they have, how he was feeling that day, he’d answer, “I seem to have a little touch of cancer.” "

Read the whole piece here, very good.

http://www.frumforum.com/christopher-hitchens-1949%E2%80%932011

There are some truly small minded, spiteful people on this website.

Great Linky..

Shall be reading up on him..

Mucho's.

boxelder, you've shown yourself up as a massive ignoranus - no, that's not a mis-sprlling

How's that then?
I admitted to not having heard much of him before. I read the brief piece linked to in the OP and it seemed to paint a bit of a confused and negative picture. Since then, I've spent a bit of time listening to him and reading about him and [i]my opinion[/i] remains pretty much the same - priveleged upbringing, obviously very intelligent and a great speaker and wit, lots of seemingly refreshing ideas, but I'm left wondering what he hoped to achieve. As others have said, he didn't follow up his Socialist ideals with much substance.

What I'm sure of is that Hitchens wouldn't have called me a massive ignoranus for having my own opinion. Clearly you're welcome to yours.

I'm sure he's up there looking down fondly on this thread.

surfer - Member

Yiu need to read it more carefully.

No, I've reread it and there is no mention in the OP's link that Hitchins had been a member of the Socialist Workers Party/International Socialists/Trot.

Which is frankly absurd - the geezer made a name for himself as a political commentator, to exclude his former political affiliations in his obituary is at the very least, sloppy.

The quote which you and mogrim have copied and pasted comes from a different Hitchins obituary by someone else. My point still stands.

The Daily Mash does it again

Meanwhile, friends and relatives of Hitchens have been urged to set up a foundation in his name devoted to the study of using your brain to squeeze the most out of the one and only life you will ever get, even if you have to wash it regularly in lukewarm Scotch.

A great man (whose surname was spelled with an E) and who wasn't afraid to re orientate himself and change his views when he felt necessary. He wasn't a fan of outdated stagnate dogmatism.

Deluded +1

Ernie about the least interesting thing about Hitchens was that he was a 1970s Trot. He abandoned the revolutionary left because of their affection for dictatorships, much like his hero George Orwell. You wouldn't like what he had to say about Fidel and Che.

and who wasn't afraid to re orientate himself and change his views when he felt necessary

Or as BBC news puts it:

He supported the Iraq War and backed George W Bush for re-election in 2004.
It led to him being accused of betrayal: one former friend called him "a lying, opportunistic, cynical contrarian", another critic said he was "a drink-sodden ex-Trotskyist popinjay".

RIP another waffling middle-class MILLIONAIRE transient [s]revolutionary[/s] [b]warmonger[/b].

RIP another waffling middle-class transient
revolutionary.

He'd have fitted in perfectly as a big hitter on here then...

.....and change his views when he felt necessary.

Why 'necessary' ........because he had been wrong ? If so, how wrong ... very wrong, or just slightly wrong ?

I think we should be told. After all, I understand he made a comfortable living telling the thinking classes how they should think. Personally I have only rarely ever bought Socialist Worker, even less the Daily Express, and I have never seen a copy of Vanity Fair, so I wouldn't know.

.

He abandoned the revolutionary left because of their affection for dictatorships

So he threw himself in with "the revolutionary left" unaware of their affection for dictatorships .... how did that happen ? Sounds like one big **** up to me. He wasn't the sharpest tool in the box I take it then ?

Ernie, people can recede from a political purpose or abandon or adjust their former positions - actually it’s a quality I like as it indicates a receptiveness to change - as opposed to weakly and hypocritically clinging to views once held for the sake of losing face ... or suffer childish un-nuanced accusations that he was a "popinjay" for example.

Are you such a zealot that you've never turned the rudder on matters?

The quote which you and mogrim have copied and pasted comes from a different Hitchins obituary by someone else. My point still stands.

Yes and no, the at the time of posting the Guardian linked to from the front page quite clearly mentioned it. Hardly the Guardian anti-marxist conspiracy you seem to be hinting at.

Are you such a zealot that you've never turned the rudder on matters?

I make sure I'm right from the very start, so's I don't have to look foolish having to change my onion on things. 🙂

I make sure I'm right from the very start, so's I don't have to look foolish having to change my onion on things.

I'll mark that down as a "yes", then. Zealot!

To be fair, I don't think he's had any infuence in the slightest on my life.

people can recede from a political purpose or abandon or adjust their former positions - actually it’s a quality I like as it indicates a receptiveness to change

Are you his former intern, Nick Clegg?

[url=

salute you Christopher[/url]

I salute you Christopher
I salute your life
How you played the dice
Your words will live in us
Timelessly insane
Explosive, fresh and wise
Some will just forget
Some will close their eyes
Some will turn the tide

I salute you Christopher
Whiskey raised and downed
You risked and you took the crown
Console yourselves
That a scientific death is better than a fairy tale
Of the eternal life
Control yourselves
Because the man in the sky is a tyrant and a lonely psychopath
Dreamed up to steal your minds

A horseman on a trial
A brilliant gentle wreck
With a brutal mouth for press
No submit, no compromise
Saint Christopher of the truth
And a destroyer of screens and threats
They will learn to see in time
They will think before they refuse
The civilisation rules

I salute you Christopher
I declare you as our king
Or queen, depending on your mood

Zealot!

Oh whell.

Smarties. Are they worth the money, or not?

It's the question on everybody's lips.

Chocolate Buttons aren't, that's for sure.

as opposed to weakly and hypocritically clinging to views once held for the sake of losing face

And yet as recently as 2002 Hitchins was still defending Lenin. Presumably for the sake of not losing face.

Oh hang on, wait a second....... did his epiphany occur after 2002 ?

Which presumably means that according to him, he spent the first 54 years of his life talking bollox, which he later retracted. I hope no one was paying attention to him before 2002. When did you first become a fan of Hitchins deluded - was it after 2002 ?

.

Yes and no

😀

Doesn't look like the link ever changed to me.

And I'm not accusing the Guardian of an "anti-marxist conspiracy" btw. Maybe conveniently burying Hitchins embarrassing past though - who knows.

"Forgetting" to mention a political commentator's former political affiliation is rather bizarre.

Doesn't look like the link ever changed to me.

And I'm not accusing the Guardian of an "anti-marxist conspiracy" btw. Maybe conveniently burying Hitchins embarrassing past though - who knows.

"Forgetting" to mention a political commentator's former political affiliation is rather bizarre.

Link didn't change, and you're 100% correct that it doesn't mention his past - but then it is mentioned in the other obituary... unless proved otherwise I'm guessing the literary editor didn't consider it important or even know of it. The cock-up theory, basically.

The "conveniently burying" comment is a bit tin-foil-hat, though...

Smarties. Are they worth the money, or not?

I'm somewhat shocked the Great Elf does not already know the answer.

I'm guessing the literary editor didn't consider it important or even know of it.

😀

Stop it - my sides are hurting !

Everyone knows that Hitchins was a Trot, including the Guardian's "literary editor". And yes, it is important. Maybe not so important if he had been famous for being a painter, but Hitchins was rather famous for his political views.

I'm somewhat shocked the Great Elf does not already know the answer.

Oh I already know the answer, Mog. I'm just wondering if others do.

Hitchens was defending aspects of Lenin's 'achievements' until yesterday! Such as his creation of a secular Russia free from the Russian Orthodox Church. What does 2002 have to do with it?

Everyone knows that Hitchins was a Trot

I didn't. Mind you, noone asked me to write an obituary about him either. Maybe, just maybe, you're right.

And Elf: I know the answer too. But I'm not telling, either.

What's your beef with him, Ernie?: is it that he changed his mind?

Yet another thread on a fascinating topic ruined

I didn't.

OK fair enough sorry. I assumed everyone was aware that Hitchins was a Trot. Even I knew that - and as a rule I don't waste my time reading the opinions of waffling Trots, and Hitchins was no exception. I have even less time for renegade Trots. Politics isn't some sort of game to be played depending on your current whim, imo.

But it is a testament Hitchins ability to bury his dark secrets and political acrobatics, if has successfully managed to leave some of his fans oblivious to his past. Makes the Guardian's literary editor's "forgetfulness" somewhat worthwhile perhaps ?

I don't think any of those that have contributed to this thread have been oblivious to his past. Were you under the impression that your revelations as to his political associations was a huge exposé?

What exactly were his dark secrets? - in detail please.

mcboo - Member

Yet another thread on a fascinating topic ruined

It's still a fascinating thread imo. You mcboo, come out with this little beauty :

[i]"He abandoned the revolutionary left because of their affection for dictatorships, much like his hero George Orwell."[/i]

And yet a quick google search shows that in Hitchins's 2002 book "Why Orwell Matters" he defends Lenin claiming he was a "great man" and that there is no Lenin character in Animal Farm.

"Ruined" because of your lack of understanding maybe mcboo ?

Yet another thread on a fascinating topic ruined

Hitchens of all people doesn't merit (and wouldn't have wanted) a hagiography.

I don't think any of those that have contributed to this thread have been oblivious to his past. Were you under the impression that your revelations as to his political associations was a huge exposé?

Well it came as a surprise to me too deluded.

Hence my comment which you have obviously missed :

[i]"OK fair enough sorry. I assumed everyone was aware that Hitchins was a Trot."[/i]

.

What's your beef with him, Ernie?: is it that he changed his mind?

Nah, I would still be dismissive of him if he hadn't "changed his mind" and had remained a Trot.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/dec/16/christopher-hitchens-debate-highlights-video

My two penn'orth?: I think we've lost one of the great public intellectuals of our generation.
This is a shame, but as others have said, it's doubtful that he would have stood for any sentimentality.
In terms of his lack of a consistent political position, for me this takes nothing away from what I admire about him, and I offer these observations:

I think Hitchens placed a very high value on debate, on argument.
I think he came to take religion very seriously, but I suspect the attraction of this subject to Hitchens was partly because he also knew it was a great topic to choose if you want to provoke, to rile, to debate.
The fact that earlier in his career as a polemicist he'd chosen politics as his arena, and far left politics at that, is in line with my thesis that it's the scrap he was after, rather than a drive for insight and/or to draw others to agree with his position. If true, this preference for argument above all else would also explain his shifting political positions and, given the prevalence of logical fallacies within theology (easier targets perhaps than well-thought-through politics) a switch to take on theists makes sense.

genius, sadly missed 😥

it's the scrap he was after, rather than a drive for insight and/or to draw others to agree with his position. If true, this preference for argument above all else would also explain his shifting political positions and, given the prevalence of logical fallacies within theology (easier targets perhaps than well-thought-through politics) a switch to take on theists makes sense.

Which is pretty much what I meant by

never really did anything positive

I suppose if you like debate and argument, then he was impressive, and clearly an intellect, but if you prefer your 'heroes' to do something of substance, then he was just another entertaining intellectual.
No disrespect meant.

WackoAK - Member
"violent, irrational, intolerant, allied to racism and tribalism and bigotry, invested in ignorance and hostile to free inquiry"

His quote on religion could apply to many things, including some members on this forum.

And Hitchens himself. I wish no ill up on him, but he was smug and self-satisfied in a way I find that only a certain type of middle-class English man can be smug and self-satisfied.

As a man, he deserves our attention and respect. As a writer and commentator, other than being vaguely witty in a snide sort of way, he hardly deserves notice.

As a man, he deserves our attention and respect. As a writer and commentator, other than being vaguely witty in a snide sort of way, he hardly deserves notice.

I didn't say anything about him as a man was [i]interesting[/i]. I only meant to say that as another human being who has died, he deserves to be treated with respect. I would say the same about any person. Even an unpalatable one.

Beyond that, his writer-yness is simply wealthy middle-class, middle-aged, snotty bluster.

I think his attitude to death was quite inspiring, took the cancer on the chin, no bleating, just dignified with some dark humour.

Which presumably means that according to him, he spent the first 54 years of his life talking bollox, which he later retracted. I hope no one was paying attention to him before 2002. When did you first become a fan of Hitchins deluded - was it after 2002 ?

.

this really did make me lol, and lol hard

As a man, he deserves our attention and respect. As a writer and commentator, other than being vaguely witty in a snide sort of way, he hardly deserves notice.

I didn't say anything about him as a man was interesting. I only meant to say that as another human being who has died, he deserves to be treated with respect.

Do you give notice to every human being that has died?

Why is an indifferent man more worthy of respect and attention than an indifferent writer, then?

Do you give notice to every human being that has died?

You're clutching at straws there konabunny, it's pretty clear what SaxonRider is saying - as you well know.

IE, SaxonRider respects him as a person but not as a writer.

But don't let me stop you carrying on trying to make a meal out of it.

He's a guy that got paid for blowing hot air out his arse. tbh I canny actually believe the coverage the guys deaths gets. But I suppose that's the nature of celebrity culture these days.

RIP however.

I suppose that's the nature of celebrity culture these days