MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
Just asking, as I was manhandled and made clear to me in no uncertain terms that I would be removed forcibly if I didn't do as asked.
This is a route I and many others have used for decades.
So I believe it is a right of way, but on privately owned land.
Did he ask you to leave nicely before he man handled you? seems to be a fair bit of this recently.
So I believe it is a right of way, but on privately owned land.
On this one, ask your PROW officers at the local council
As for removing - the landowner (or appointed agent) has the right to ask you to leave by the most convenient route. They may use reasonable force, but that shouldn't extend to picking you up bodily unless things escalate *way* out of control
https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q56.htm
Its a tricky one, as they need to obtain a court order to stop you in the long run.
Best way to think of it is, how would you act if you found someone cutting through your back garden, and then gave you a load of verbal when asked to stop.
Here's another blurb about it:
Trespass is a civil offence committed when somebody enters property where he/she has no right to be and refuses to leave when requested to do so by the owner, or his/her representative. In law, if a trespasser refuses to leave the property when asked, the owner/representative is entitled to use ‘reasonable force’ to evict him/her‘Reasonable Force’ in Law
No attempt should be made to remove a trespasser unless he/she has first been asked to leave and has been given to do so. If he/she then refuses to leave voluntarily, ‘reasonable force’ may be used. What would count as ‘reasonable force’ is dependent upon the circumstances and unique to the situation but essentially requires deploying the absolute minimum force necessary. Any violence over and above what is absolutely necessary could leave the individual liable to prosecution for assault
Looks like one for the council then. There goes my favourite road ride 🙁
I thought they didn't have any right to use any force. They can ask you to leave, and if you don't, they need to get a senior police office to attend, and he can direct you to leave; it is then an offence if you refuse - they can only do that if there are loads of you though.
From [url= http://www.naturenet.net/law/common.html ]http://www.naturenet.net/law/common.html[/url]
The problem is that if someone is trespassing, they are unlikely to comply with a polite request to leave, and if they then do not, the landowner has little if any further recourse. Section 61 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 allows the senior police officer attending the scene of an incident involving a trespass or nuisance on land to order trespassers to leave the land and to remove their vehicles as soon as reasonably practicable. The power can only be used when there are two or more people there and "are present there with the common purpose of residing there for any period, [and] that reasonable steps have been taken by or on behalf of the occupier to ask them to leave" and either the trespassers have six or more vehicles between them, or they have caused damage to the land or to property on the land or used threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour - or both. So really it's not likely to cover anything other than a major invasion. This power is not often used, but for practical purposes this is the only instance where you might get the police to come and actually remove trespassers from a bit of land.
cheeky road-riding? that's a new one on me. Where were you?
Generally trespass is a civil, not criminal offence unless you are on specific sites or have committed other offences such as forced entry or provable damage to the land/area.
I'd be massively surprised if the use of physical force is sanctioned, particularly if you were doing nothing wrong other than being there, particularly if there is a disputed ROW involved.
If it was me I'd report it to the police and go see a solicitor.
More details please.
Can you apply to make it a right of way if it has been used for decades presumably with landowners knowledge in the past?
Interesting info. My bike was forcibly removed from me put in the back of their van and I was asked to go with them so they could escort me off the property.
Were you on military land?
Come on, spill the beans, where wuz you chief? 🙂
Don't want to say for now, would like to hear their own response for now.
The grounds of a large well known stately home. Who may or may not have Lions 😉
Or the driveway to Sandringham?
IANAL but sounds similar to false imprisonment/kidnapping. I would be interested to know what our legally qualified members classify this as.
ah...
is it a [i]long[/i] road?
.
There was a thing on Radio Somerset about this a couple of weeks ago lots of local dog walkers were turned off the estate having used it for years .I think they were planning a protest walk as they were not given a reason for this action
Looking at the map, is there not a load of sustrans routes through the estate I'm thinking of?
If they picked you and your bike up in the lion enclosure and took you out in the back of a land rover, then the words you should have been looking for were "Thank You" 🙂
Dave
Sounds like unreasonable force was used, especially grabbing your bike, right bunch of thugs! Doesn't sound legal to me.
The grounds of a large well known stately home. Who may or may not have Lions
They hold a Sportive there, it finishes down the long road right in front of the house.
Two sides to this really - if they asked you to leave then you should obviously do so and it may jeopardise the future of events held there if you continue to use it.
On the other hand, using force is out of order unless you were kicking off at them (and even then it's the absolute minimum of force necessary).
We used to do cheeky night road rides round Windsor Great Park.
Their behaviour does not seem unreasonable they escorted you off private land. I'm sure there was an element of trying to send you a "force-able message" so that you wouldn't wish to come back.
Public rights of way have to be designated as such, if you want it so designated you have to make the case formally. From recollection to be a public right of way it has to have been in use for 20 or perhaps 30 years (note that's longer than for "claiming" land). We had an example in the family of a rear access to a property which had become a right of way but only after 20+ years of documented use.
Might be worth getting onto Sustrans if you were on one of the marked routes.
Pfft, English people problems 😉
Sportives can be held elsewhere
Just be glad they didnt chase after you on horseback shouting "Tally-ho!" or some other generic toff saying.
The landowner can use reasonable force to end a trespass but the million dollar question is what is reasonable . If you agree to leave by what ever route he is happy with that ends any need to use any force at all.
Also just as you trespassed on to his land he "trespassed" to your bike so you could use reasonable force to recover it.
"Agree for the law is costly"
Wow Wierd one this, they safely escorted of there land in there eyes and in your eyes they forcibly did so.
If you was grabbed that would be assault regardless of tresspassing, any boby found tresspasing needs to be informed that they are tresspassing first then ask to leave or accompany the landowner/ landowners agent of the land
Its a pity poor people have to go on rich peoples land!
If you've been using it for 20 years without a problem, then its possible to claim a right of way - however that use must have been "without permission" - ie. you must have believed that it was by right, if the owner has openly allowd people there, then it makes the case a lot weaker.
no doubt at all that legally they had permission to remove you, by force if necessary - regards the bike, unless they damaged it then I can't see the problem, what did you expect them to do, escort you off the premises and leave it there?
regards the bike, unless they damaged it then I can't see the problem, what did you expect them to do, escort you off the premises and leave it there?
You don't see a problem with forcibly removing his bike nd chucking it in the back of a van, rather than letting him remove it himself? 😯
For reference the landowner can only ask you to leave (under your own steam) by the shortest possible route - they can't tell you to leave using their van.
The landowner has no right to take your bike (or any of your possessions)
What should happen is he asks you to go from his land and you agree to do so and go straight to the Highway Authority (PROW man) to check your facts. If you refuse to go the landowner could use reasonable force but you really should not be getting into that position. If the landowner used any force at all, he would need to be able to show to a court that it was reasonable which would be a very difficult thing to do. Note the difference between assault (a criminal offence) and trespass (a civil action).
I was once in a group a paragliders and we landed in a field (no RoW). The farmer came up and took one of the glider bags (as hostage I suppose). We did the right thing called the police and they came straight round and sorted out the farmer.
C
We used to do cheeky night road rides round Windsor Great Park.
Why cheeky - you're allowed in anyway aren't you? They close it to cars, but bikes are fair game shirley?
If you've been using it for 20 years without a problem, then its possible to claim a right of way - however that use must have been "without permission" - ie. you must have believed that it was by right, if the owner has openly allowd people there, then it makes the case a lot weaker.
That's kind of mixed up. To claim such a right of way you have to show that the landowner did allow people there (or at least didn't interfere with their use).
Arecer,
The law is that you must have used the way while the landowner (or his agent) has ‘dedicated’ it. It’s called deemed dedication. I.e. they had an intent to dedicate it as a RoW.
Ways that he might not have shown deemed dedication is to lock a gate, to put up a sign saying ‘no right of way’ or to have thrown a few people off now and then. Also if you once used a path, 30 miles away from his farm, on a moor in the middle of the night, you’re never going to prove (to the magistrates) that the landowner was giving dedication.
If he gives permission then that is as good a locking a gate. It shows there is not normally a dedication but this time I give permission.
Does that make sense?
C
If he gives permission then that is as good a locking a gate. It shows there is not normally a dedication but this time I give permission.
Yes, but there's a difference between that and openly allowing people there (which is what appears to have been the case at Longleat). Hence my use of the term "mixed up" rather than "wrong".
You only have to show that they didn't intend not to dedicate, which is a slightly different level of proof to what you imply - if you have a history of people using a track 30 miles from their farm over a long enough period without interference that is sufficient.
It also blocks off part of a pleasant cicuit around Centre Parks, leaving an unpleasant alternative along a winding, narrow road with poor visibility.
He (the nob) wasn't talking to the local paper last week. They got miffed.
The estate has been very careful in the past about footpaths and bridleways. Take a look at an OS map.
You only have to show that they didn't intend not to dedicate, which is a slightly different level of proof to what you imply - if you have a history of people using a track 30 miles from their farm over a long enough period without interference that is sufficient.
you are correct, but my point is if it was done out of teh sight of the landowner, and done only so (ie you would not have dare do it when he was there) then it would not be taken as deemed dedication.
C
I would very much doubt taking your bike and putting it in a van is reasonable - I'd be making a complaint to the police.
they can to ask you to leave by the shortest route and if you agree to do that thats the end of it. You leave issue over.
Police complaint time.
Check ROW status
I would very much doubt taking your bike and putting it in a van is reasonable - I'd be making a complaint to the police.
Why not? They didn't damage his property or his person in anyway, so doesn't sound that unreasonable to me, OK may be a little humiliating, but I don't think the police take 'mental anguish' into account with assault.
Lets not forget that he was in the wrong here as he was trespassing; OK its just a bit of cheeky trail stealing, however it is still trespass.
If you were trespassing in my garden I would certainly forceably remove you..
But I imagine Lord Bath would be much more likely to try to score some weed off you or invite you to a sexy party or wander off to talk to a tree..
Jobsworth estate managers to blame..?
hmmm - a lot of this going on at the moment, seems Longlete are set on upsetting as many locals as possible (much more than cyclists effected). I've heard of some heavy handedness - and rumblings coming from Sustrans...
nothing good will come from this
Why not? They didn't damage his property or his person in anyway, so doesn't sound that unreasonable to me, OK may be a little humiliating, but I don't think the police take 'mental anguish' into account with assault.
Depends, if you're holding onto the bike and he 'takes' it from your grasp then I think that the threat of violence is there. Maybe not strong but there (invading personal space, using force to remove from your grasp, etc).
If he had dropped the bike and it was lying at the side of the road then probably not.
If you were trespassing in my garden I would certainly forceably remove you
Hmmm if it was lord bath doing the removing then you may of had a point showing us your manliness, however it was one of his underlings taking his job to seriously and without due diligence. They have right to ask you to leave the property but not man handle you. Same thing with tree hugger tying themselves to trees, they need a court order to physically remove them.
I think you misunderstood my post flippinheckler.. ho hum
has the Longleat estate recently changed it's policy..? If so why..? what is the reason behind it..? there's a lot of talk about the issue if you google Lord Bath..
If you were trespassing in my garden I would certainly forceably remove you..
You are so hot, yunki!
Would you be rougher in the back garden?
Would you be rougher in the back garden?
It's a bit wiffy around my compost bin..
A Country Ranger once threatened to confiscate my bike near Edale.
When I pointed out if he laid a finger on it he would be wearing it wrapped around his head for the rest of the day he backed down, but he insisted he had the 'right'.
Mind you, I had to show him that the track I was on was a Bridleway on the OS map; he maintained I was 'going to ride on a footpath'
You got caught riding cheeky, then let someone dispossess you of your bike !! take your licks and get on with it
I would very much doubt taking your bike and putting it in a van is reasonable - I'd be making a complaint to the police.
Its fairly clear what the landowner can do
1) ask yo uto leave by the shortest route - if you agree and do so that is the end of it
2) if yo refuse to leave they can use minimum and reasonable force to remove you.
To me it sounds like they went further than this. they are clearly being very heavy handed - so a report to the police to at a minimum have the incident recorded is appropriate IMO
There are no rights of way across the Longleat Estate, but there are 2 Sustrans routes that exist permissive access. It has generally been taken by locals for years that walking/riding along the estate roads is allowed, so the recent issues are causing quite a stir locally.
Ziggy, out of interest, where were you when you were stopped and what time of day was it? From speaking with others we have yet to work out any pattern or obvious method to Longleat's "madness". Indeed there are no new signs up at the entrances (other than two new pop up barriers) so how folk are supposed to know they are now not allowed on the estate I know not.
Out of interest, how did they get your bike off you? Did they drag you off it? I assume you were riding rather than pushing or climbing in through a window to ride the Great Hall or such like...?
i'd write directly to the owner of the property asking if the employees were acting with his authority and if it would be possible to review position on sccess
not withstanding all the good advice above - in the pre CROW days used to find that a warden with dogs could persuade me to leave rather easily - one run i still do that is now legal i always stop and moon at the wardens cottage - maybe a mass moon in!
Reasonable force allows the "laying on of hands" if so required to remove a trespasser from your property.
The owner or his agent can "remove" you at any point under "tort of trespass".
If that is a "guiding hand" or being physically picked up and carried off it matters not.
It depends if you were removed as a trespasser on private land or removed as a biker on a public footpath. Al makes a very good point that you'd assume the estate has public access rights, certainly on foot, so poor signage is to blame here IMO. However al also points out that as there are no PRoWs on the estate, were you on private land or the permissive sustrans route?
If the former its, as mentioned lots above, its up to the landowner to remove you with reasonable force, and what reasonable force would be would be up to the police then ultimately a magistrate to decide if you were to make a complaint and it went that far. If its the latter, get in touch with your PRoW department ASAP.
Thinking out loud I'd say his taking of your bike is taking property with the intent to deprive, but not AFAIK if the 'agent' has been authorised by his employers to take bikes off trespassers to return them after being escorted off the property.
Interesting and tough to decide, but on the face of it, it doesn't sound unreasonable to me and I'd chalk it up to experience I'm afraid.
hinking out loud I'd say his taking of your bike is taking property with the intent to deprive,
No intent to deprive
I would make a police complaint tho assuming you were prepared to leave when requested 'cos if you were no level of force is reasonable
I would make a police complaint tho assuming you were prepared to leave when requested 'cos if you were no level of force is reasonable
And then you are in the world of their word against yours, in which case you lose (UK law, not TJ's law obviously). Because your idea of shortest route possible might not be there's and in the end its there ****ing land!
Presumably you're allowed to use "reasonable force" to counter their "reasonable force". 🙂
For anyone that is interested about access issues on the Longleat Estate, there is a piece here which mostly helps. http://www.whitehorsenews.co.uk/blog/?p=1645 Looks like Cycle routes 24 and 25, plus teh Wiltshire cycleway are unaffected (if you read the Longleat statement and ignore the scare mongering "journalism" is the reporter.
Reasonable force allows the "laying on of hands" if so required to remove a trespasser from your property.
The owner or his agent can "remove" you at any point under "tort of trespass".
If that is a "guiding hand" or being physically picked up and carried off it matters not.
I hope you're not a lawyer dishing out advice.
"Reasonable" means just that. And all circumstances and behaviour would be taken into account. Otherwise, it isn't reasonable....
UPDATE
I emailed Longleat with no response so far.
However, this weekend Longleat have removed all of the route 24/25 Sustrans signs from the estate.
was thinking about this the other day as we were down at the Stourhead estate meeting a man about a dog (to mate with ours this spring 🙂 )
Is Stourhead any good for riding? Spotted some tracks and saw something about a permit online when I checked when we got back. Lovely area, I normally pass through early in the morning or late at night as I go to the Isle of Wight a lot for work.
ziggy - you say all, have they removed signs from the rest of the estate, like near Bradley Road?
"Due to some recent serious security and health and safety issues including robbery, as well as other abuse and damage to the estate, we have reviewed the access policy at Longleat."
"The House and associated courtyards, formal grounds, landscaped gardens, Pleasure Walk and the Longleat Safari and Adventure Park are closed to the general public."
"Unlimited access is permitted for ... cyclists in other areas of the wider estate (over 8,000 acres), excluding the above-mentioned areas."
Unfortunate but you can see their point. As for your trespass: I don't think they should have taken your bike. If you resisted eviction, they could man-handle [u]you[/u] off the premises. IMO
Mass tresspass time
This has made the [url= http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-17063828 ]BBC[/url] news website now.
It does seam to have been very badly managed if the estate didn't even tell Sustrans that the cycle route was being closed.
very badly managed - the change in management has introduced some changes over the past 12-18 months, and knowing people who have dealt with them, all driven by the dollar signs
my bet - the decision was taken very short sightedly (ie: why are we letting people onto the estate without charging), hence the change was brought in so hap-hazzardly. The reasoning given re: robbery etc, smacks of some retro PR resoning
couple of things to think about, these routes have been in regular use for a long (long) time, so what's the chances of getting them upgraded to public rights of way?
and Longlete will never get another penny of my cash (used to buy a passport ticket every year), not just for this - but the shocking treatment dealt out to staff when the new management took over
I presume that a lot of the changes are due to the change in management (the bloke who used to manage legoland iirc) recently appointed by (presumably) Lord Bath
And to answer the question about Stourhead, it's about as good as what's around, but dissapointing overall. Not worth a trip, but would ride if on the doorstep.