If you put climate-change deniers, Brexiters and conspiracy theorists into a venn diagram

You forgot cryptocurrency enthusiasts.

According to my crystal ball it will be a No Deal Brexit whether UK like it or not as EU is not moving an inch by sticking to their decision. i.e. no more negotiation.

PM Boris will inevitably stay as PM for at least 2 terms with the help from Brexit party in the north.

This time PM Boris will bulldoze his way to No Deal Brexit and Parliament cannot stop him. He knows if he does not Brexit then Conservative party will be doomed.

Cougar

Subscriber

The main reason is that leavers like to make shit up and present it as fact, as you’ve just ably demonstrated.

Ummm … I think you will find the studys that Edukator is mentioning is made up shit being presented as fact.

This was one of THM’s favourite straw men, and if you read the thread you’re referring to you’ll see it debunked at length (by me amongst many others) months ago. No-one – well, OK, very few people – are suggesting that all leavers are idiots. Aside from anything else, this is demonstrably untrue. Rather, all the idiots voted for brexit. It’s a subtle but important difference.

So there you go. I think that clarified my description of the STW Brexit thread loons being a bunch of grandiose people with overinflated feelings of entitlement. Its pretty clear you beleive you are intellectually superior to everyone else with different views/opinions.
Thanks for clearing that up.

And you can argue that black is white all you like but if you look at post-referendum analysis there is a clear correlation between education levels and how people were likely to vote. In fact it’s the second greatest correlation after age. It saddens me somewhat that we’re still having to have this conversation, but here we are.

Arghhh … you trying to use those studies again … the ones you claim to have debunked previously I guess.

/inserts facepalm gif

Britain is not really a European country due to the reformation and empire, it doesn’t really belong in the EU in the first place – history matters

Nonsense. History shows us how closely related to the rest of Europe we are. We speak a Germanic language*, we’ve had German monarchs for 200 years. The closest language to ours is Frisian then Dutch; We were colonised by Italians, Germans, Danes, Norwegians, French; then we ended up ruling half of France; along the way our rulers we married into Spanish, German, French families; we took on French culture; we had a Dutch king; then even when we became stable we regularly allied with half of Europe to defeat aggressors even up to WWII.

And citing the reformation? Martin Luther was German, much of Europe is protestant.

So we are absolutely totally a European country at the very heart of Europe. Not only that, we are physically on the continent so they should be our closest trading partners for logistical, environmental and sheer bloody common sense reasons.

But no, we apparently think we’re better. We’re in for a bit of a come-down I think.

* we do actually have a few native British languages but ironically the little Englanders are usually queueing up to take the piss out of them, preferring their imported foreign tongue instead.

So still no actual pro Brexit argument from mooman?

This is why the populists are winning..

Claiming to know why people voted a certain way is as daft using it to add weight to your own opinion.

Indeed. Given only a third of the population eligible to vote actually voted to leave, good luck trying to find a consensus that’s proportionate enough – and reasonable enough – to matter.

The truth is, a single politically motivated “democratic” event has shafted the UK irreparably and focused precious few resources on a cause without need.

And if anyone is trying to find solace or closure for this non-sensical farce on this forum, well, it ain’t going to happen. Embrace the madness to come!

@molgrips, I don’t think it is “nonsense” – the idea that Britain is “very much a European country at the heart of Europe” sounds more like nonsense to me.
I mentioned both the reformation and the empire, which taken together meant Britain’s historical development took place somewhat independently of Europe. Indeed there are protestant nations in Europe (but not many in the EU), whilst Germany was never reformed to the extent of Britain – around half of Germans are Catholic.
If the reformation hadn’t happened then I’d argue Britain would have remained a European country, as it had been beforehand. But since the reformation and the empire, it established links with the rest of the world in a way unmatched by any other country. You mention how English was originally a Germanic language, well during the Empire, English then became a new language for millions of others in other countries, so these things mutate over time and after a while a new structure is developed.
As a result of this history, it is my understanding that Britain is better understood as a Commonwealth country, not a European one. Only a small number of British people would consider themselves European.

The fact he’s now having to look into Italian residency, changing his driving license and arranging health care he’s not so keen.

Well l live in mainland Europe (EU) and had to gain residence , change my licence ( it has the wrong address) and pay €80 per month healthcare anyway.

The free movement does what it says on the tin. To live and work is something different altogether. The fact that a Ukranian friend of mine managed to gain residency in exactly the same timeframe as me , an EU citizen says it all really.

Only a small number of British people would consider themselves European.

Percentage?

Percentage?

Which, if any, of the following words would you use to describe yourself?
British 58%
English 49%
European 15%
Scottish 7%
Regional term (eg northerner, southerner, Highlander) 7%
City/county specific term (eg Londoner, Yorkshireman, Glaswegian, Geordie, Mancunian, Scouser) 7%
Irish/Northern Irish 4%
Welsh 4%
Local area/town-specific term 3%

Taken from the Guardian ( yes really!)

Hey @andypaul, whereabouts in Europe are you, and how easy was it to get your job out of interest.
I used to go out with an Italian and spent a lot of time there, but it was very unlikely I’d ever be able to secure a job. Most jobs in Italy go to sons/family/family friends, but I only have experience of Italy and appreciate it could be more open in other countries.

, it is my understanding that Britain is better understood as a Commonwealth country, not a European one. Only a small number of British people would consider themselves European.

Well that’s just silly, what % of Brits identify as citizens of the commonwealth ?

The idea of the commonwealth in the UK is just a legacy of empire, Brits desperately trying to cling on to the idea of exceptionalism

It’s made even more laughable by your average ukipers attitude towards former countries of the empire, while the EU has been a convenient bogeyman for the rw press & populist politicians. They’ll dislike Indians, Nigerians etc even more.

There’s a huge difference between you and your Ukranian friend, Andypaul. You are there as a right for as long as you wish, and he is there for as long as the country decides. As long as you abide by the very low conditions for remaining in a country you can stay, in simple terms as long as you can sustain yourself on the same terms as a local.

Britain is the best example of this. Workers from the EU just have to have to show they can support themselves beyond 3 months residency, workers from elsewhere have to earn:

You’ll usually need to be paid at least £30,000 per year or the ‘appropriate rate’ for the job you’re offered – whichever is higher

This is why some EU workers are leaving, they realise that in the event of no deal they’ll no longer comply with requirements and can be deported on whim. That and being disliked, or worse, insulted and intimidated.

You say you have “residency”. That’s not “nationality” and in the event of no deal your host country can do just what it likes with you, just like your Ukranian friend right now. Life on an ejector seat.

This is why some EU workers are leaving, they realise that in the event of no deal they’ll no longer comply with requirements and can be deported on whim. That and being disliked, or worse, insulted and intimidated.

Don’t agree. There is a huge recruitment drive from much of Eastern Europe, in many cases they are willing to match salaries of many EU workers that have left the country. This combined with the falling pound and a much lower cost of living at their country of origin means that many of them are now returning.
Brexit or no Brexit those people were here for money and money alone.
When you actually ask real people why they left the UK it is because of the high cost of living and l hate to say it but its true but many do not like the multiculturalism in the UK, which doesn’t happen in their home countries.

It is a shame that once again a handful of the STW Brexit thread regulars turn up and stifle any debate with their typical nonsensical ignorant recycled ‘facts’ … its why they were left to fester in the STW Brexit thread by themselves.

The loss of EU nurses to the NHS is well known and documented. gone from a net inflow of around a thousand a year to a net outflow of hundreds per year.

It is a shame that once again a handful of the STW Brexit thread regulars turn up and stifle any debate with their typical nonsensical ignorant recycled ‘facts’ …

‘Facts’ you seem unable to counter with any of your own ?

Brexit or no Brexit those people were here for money and money alone.

Well lets have a poll of expats or ex-expats then, there are a lot on this forum. When I’ve worked in other countries money has never been my main motivation. In fact on my first move my salery was divided by 10.

Why did you move expats or immigrants?

Lifestyle, culture, climate, more relaxed working atmosphere, clients more likely to pay and less likely to go strategically bankrupt, better welfare state, good schools with less bullying, more chance of success without being born with a silver spoon in your gob, people not bothered about keeping up with the Joneses… .

When you actually ask real people why they left the UK it is because of the high cost of living and l hate to say it but its true but many do not like the multiculturalism in the UK, which doesn’t happen in their home countries.

Funnily enough all the ones I know are scientists who specifically say Brexit was a reason they left, and they are choosing to return to countries where it’s harder to set up labs and there is less funding, including France, Portugal and others where it’s easier like Germany and quite a few to Holland.

And the incessant casual xenophobia pumped out by Johnson & co is cited rather than multiculturalism …

The ones that are staying are genuinely frustrated & worried about what Brexit means for the lives they’ve made here.

It is a shame that once again a handful of the STW Brexit thread regulars turn up and stifle any debate with their typical nonsensical ignorant recycled ‘facts’

Can you give an example of a nonsensical fact presented on this thread?

Well lets have a poll of expats or ex-expats then, there are a lot on this forum. When I’ve worked in other countries money has never been my main motivation. In fact on my first move my salery was divided by 10

Ok sure, but that’s the opposite reason that a majority of the migrants from Eastern and Central Europe moved here from 2004. Their Salaries were multiplied by 5 or 6 and our currency was 50% higher than the Euro. Like l said it’s economic.

Funnily enough all the ones I know are scientists who specifically say Brexit was a reason they left, and they are choosing to return to countries where it’s harder to set up labs and there is less funding, including France, Portugal and others like Germany and quite a few to Holland

But hang on, according to the retainers the labs will now cease to exist in the UK when the EU funding gets cut?

I’m going to say it, many Europeans blame Brexit for leaving the country but l find this very hard to believe as a standalone argument. And its actually annoying when they say they are not welcome in the UK as , if the same level of immigration was to happen in their home countries they would be kicking off big time.
Interestingly this is now happening, as immigration from Russia, Ukraine and some parts of Asia are increasing in Eastern Europe. And those people are willing to work for much less.

And so it begins….

The loss of EU nurses to the NHS is well known and documented. gone from a net inflow of around a thousand a year to a net outflow of hundreds per year.

It’s a crying shame losing the EU nurses. They are very well-trained, are excellent workers and some have become good friends.

Two years ago EU (mainly Spanish and Portuguese) nurses made up about 40% of the nursing staff on my ITU. Just this year alone 24 of them have left us and the UK. 24 experienced Critical Care nurses.

The trust I work for are and have been recruiting a large number of nurses from Southern India to replace the EU nurses, and whilst they are also excellent nurses many don’t have ITU experience and as such it’ll take approximately 18 months to get competencies signed off for majority of them.

In the last year the pressure has increased upon the remaining experienced nurses, due to having to support so many inexperienced nurses,and as a result some of those have either left or have reduced their hours considerably.

It’s a mess and only a complete sadist could be happy with Brexit, given the very real effect its having on patient safety.

But since the reformation and the empire, it established links with the rest of the world in a way unmatched by any other country.

But many other European countries had empires – it was the thing to do in those days, all the major powers were at it. The British Empire was a thing for what, 200 years, and only dominant for maybe 100. 50 years later it’s receded almost to invisibility. We’ve been a part of Europe for far far longer than that. I believe the effect of other European interactions are still written all over our countries and the rest of Europe.

If the reformation hadn’t happened then I’d argue Britain would have remained a European country

Careful here – the separation of the CoE from Rome isn’t quite the same thing as the Reformation in general.

But hang on, according to the retainers the labs will now cease to exist in the UK when the EU funding gets cut?

Have they said that, where?

EU provides about 20% of UK grants, but it’s less in cancer where I work, physics , astro, will be hit harder also things like archaeology. But the effects to retaining & recruiting staff have been big, it’s some of the very best who’ve gone back.

I’m going to say it, many Europeans blame Brexit for leaving the country but l find this very hard to believe as a standalone argument. And its actually annoying when they say they are not welcome in the UK as , if the same level of immigration was to happen in their home countries they would be kicking off big time.

Perhaps you should actually speak to some then, do you think the constant vilification of the EU & European politicians in our press & by our politicians (Johnson, fargae etc have made careers out of it!). Has no effect?
These scientists have lived , contributed & paid taxes here for years, many were very frustrated that they were denied a vote in the ref itself.
I’m sure EU workers across sectors feel exactly the same.
And France & spain, Netherlands, have similar immigrant amounts to us, Germany & ireland, considerably more

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_dependent_territories_by_immigrant_population

It’s a mess and only a complete sadist could be happy with Brexit, given the very real effect its having on patient safety.

Only if you blot out those engaging in the mental gymnastics of cognitive dissonance or utter shut-down la la la can’t hear etc. Also, many just literally couldn’t give a rat’s arse as long as they are ‘getting their Brexit. All the death and destruction and loss will be met with the ‘Dunkirk spirit’ and Viz Comic-grade tabloidism with on-rotation calls to ‘weather it out’. Along with the further blaming of the EU, of course. It’s more like ironic masochism.

Anyway, got to break some eggs (NHS) to sell off the omelette.

Perhaps you should actually speak to some then, do you think the constant vilification of the EU & European politicians in our press & by our politicians (Johnson, fargae etc have made careers out of it!). Has no effect?

I speak to them and l live with them, Money is the main reason and funnily enough many of them like Farage and agree with what he stands for.

I speak to them and l live with them, Money is the main reason and funnily enough many of them like Farage and agree with what he stands for.

So you just hang out with the racist ones ?😉

I would agree that a large majority of Eastern Europeans came to the UK around 2006/2007 were drawn because of financial reasons.

Working on site around that time in London and Essex myself and other chippies and tradesman were looking at around £230-£260 day rate.

The government allowed free movement of people from new EU countries (this is going from memory) whereas Germany and France put a limit on the numbers from the new states.

Our bosses were finding it harder and harder to bid on contracts and stay competitive.

The first trades to suffer were the painters. Low start up costs, I guess. Then it was the plasterers. And then it was the other trades.

I remember being on one site and the site’s 110v tranny box was full of 110>240v converters with European plugs running from them. (240v generally banned on site for safety reasons.) there was a bit of a barmy with the site manager who basically said that at the prices they were charging he could afford to overlook it.

Whereas we were looking to earn upwards of 200 notes a day, the new influx of trades people were working for £60-£80 a day,but living five or six guys to a room.

Work dried up towards the end of 2007, in part because of the new, cheaper labour, but mostly because of the economic downturn.

I can’t knock them for it. I’m not bitter.

You’d be foolish not to make the most of an opportunity to earn 4-5 times as much as do at home.

If you want to get angry, get angry about the government policy that allowed a massive influx of cheap labour to come onto the market.

I ended up leaving the UK in 2008 for Germany (GF is German) and thought I’d go there, learn some German and return to the UK when the economy picked up.

As it is, nigh on 12 years later, I’m not planning on returning but may well have to (application for citizenship has been turned down).

And with reference to Eastern Europeans being less not being so enamored with British multiculturalism, I would agree.

Their societies are almost exclusively white.

The further east you travel in Germany, the fewer dark skinned people you will see, and that goes for Turks, if which there are many in Germany. (**** me, casual racism is very common here in “progressive” Bavaria.)

Go across the border into Poland or Czech and you’ll not see anyone who doesn’t look Polish or Czech. Can’t imagine going further west into the baltic states it’s going to be much different.

But, hopefully familiarity breeds some more understanding, but generally people don’t like what they don’t know.

overinflated feelings of entitlement.

If you want to discuss “entitlement,” you need not look any further than your own camp. We’ve had three years of hearing what leavers want, expect and demand, we won you lost get over it, with nary a care for what the other half might want. 17 million = the will of the people, 16 million = shut up and get over it. But something something democracy something, right?

andypaul

Percentage?

Which, if any, of the following words would you use to describe yourself?

Thanks for responding but something seems to be lost in translation? How does the survey that you posted in any way show what percentage of Brits do not also consider themselves ‘European’? This is the problem with such surveys, you can often skew them how you wish. True, the Brits are as a whole the least likely Europeans to consider themselves European, with (2015, Eurobaroneter National and European Identity Survey) 64% of Brits considering themselves *only* in terms of ‘British’ nationality, yet the remaining 36% are not a small percentage?

Lots of valid discussion here about Brexit stuff,
with all the focus on economies,trade,finannce and across the world countries in political trmoil,civil unrest and war.. it all seem unsolvable which migh be a clue to the fact it is time for something completely different and probably of much more importance

Lets move onto other stuff?

It is heartening to see that there is some action taking place which is beyond the petty
squabling about national identity and money.

Why ClientEarth

Lets move onto other stuff?

It is heartening to see that there is some action taking place which is beyond the petty
squabling about national identity and money.

https://www.clientearth.org/why-clientearth/

The world population is growing so according to my crystal ball this is the earth’s way to reduce them slowly …

the empire

Which empire?

How many EU member nations used to have an empire?

Weird how often Brits seem to think that a history of empire is somehow unique to us.

Weird how many of them seem to think that we still have one.

then even when we became stable we regularly allied with half of Europe to defeat aggressors

Britain interaction with the continent from about the 1500 onwards tended more towards a limited engagement approach with the key aim of preventing any single country becoming dominant.

Britain interaction with the continent from about the 1500 onwards tended more towards a limited engagement…

But it “engaged” with the “continental” countries all over the globe, because… empires.

This whole “Britain historically isn’t a European country” meme can be debunked by anyone easily, it’s a dead end. The smart line to use is “not in the EU, but part of Europe”… because that can result in actual debate.

Britain interaction with the continent from about the 1500 onwards tended more towards a limited engagement approach with the key aim of preventing any single country becoming dominant.

Limited compared to what?

I mean there wasn’t an EU, but I mean.. politically, times were different. My aim is to point out that physically, culturally and even ethnically we are intertwined with Europe* to a great extent. Politics are a thin and ephemeral layer on top of this. They are our siblings. Sometimes we fight, but we grew up together and that ties us.

* and other places obvs

The world population is growing so according to my crystal ball this is the earth’s way to reduce them slowly …

Would be fine in a way. if that were the case

But it seems to be destructive to all life and systems to support any that may remain.