Why make UK animators suffer because their govt are smallminded arseholes?

What you’re saying here is “why not make a special case for UK animators which applies to literally no-one else?”

Which, really, is the sort of thought process that got us to where we are today.

We now have Ian Paisley Jr stating that Johnson told him personally that he was going to tear up / ignore the NI protocol

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/oct/14/boris-johnson-promised-to-tear-up-ni-protocol-says-dup-mp-ian-paisley

the reality is that the actions of your government limits your opportunities whether you like it or not

Very true, but it would also appear that my opportunities are restricted by allowing politics to infringe on areas which shouldn’t be, and my potential attendance at a european animation conference almost certainly falls into that category. If the organisers of this conference feel an obligation to bar UK contributors because of brexit, then I seriously question their motives. No doubt they feel pressured because of whatever funding is provided by the EU via CEM, but again I would question why any artistic body or industrial body would allow themselves to be constrained this way.

When it boils down to it, some things need to managed at a government/national level (although not many these days, even energy supply is now trans-national), but surely not the animation industry?

And yet like so many you were so keen to accept the result of the vote and get on with Brexit, Dazh. And that despite saying you’d vote remain (which I assume you did). This is one of many examples as to why a second referendum when it was clear what people were voting for with a leave deal in their hands to read would have been a very good idea and “getting on with it” was a very bad idea.

The media duped people into voting Brexit, then into voting for government that was never going to find out what kind of Brexit people wanted because Brexit meant Brexit and no deal was better than a bad deal. The last point might have been true judging by how happy us Europeans are with the deal.

If the organisers of this conference feel an obligation to bar UK contributors because of brexit

They aren’t barring anyone. They are a club. We chose to leave the club. That means we can’t go to club meetings. It’s not hard @dazh, and you aren’t usually so slow to get your head around these things.

In this case (and for many other schemes, the EU is always reaching out to non-member countries) “we” could have been guests in the club… even after Brexit… if “we” chose to collaborate… but… Brexit means Brexit… no collaborators.

Of course, “we” means as country… not as individuals. The government have “taken back control”, we are now more at the mercy of their political decisions than we were 5 years ago.

And that’s the bit he’s missing. We (animators in the UK) want to be a part of Cartoon Media. However we (the UK as a country) do not. It’s a small price worth paying for our freedom.

But as ever this is all the EU’s fault.

They are a club. We chose to leave the club

The EU is a club yes. One which governs supra-national political and economic policy between national governments. But the animation industry? Seriously, if you’re trying to argue that it’s in the interests of animators to define, govern and ultimately restrict themselves on the basis of national boundaries then that’s clearly very silly. Or am I missing something about the strategic importance of the animation industry?

Besides why should EU bother helping when the governments own solution for companies was to set up in the EU. I’m sure Paris will welcome the Business.

You really don’t get what working across international barriers entails, do you Dazh? If you think you can just “get on with things” while your government withdraws from schemes that enable cooperation, you’re dreaming. Creative Europe, Horizon, Erasmus+ etc have real benefits across many industries… giving all the other countries the finger, because you are anti-EU (rather than just a non-member) has real consequences for real people. Brexit is not just a game. The hard Brexit we have undertaken is excluding us from schemes designed to bring people together… what is the UK government offering as replacements?

But the animation industry?

We aren’t talking about the animation industry. The event that UK animators could no longer join in with was run by an organisation called Creative Europe Media, which is a strand of a larger programme called Creative Europe – https://ec.europa.eu/culture/creative-europe

“The Creative Europe programme is open to cultural and creative organisations from EU Member States, as well as non-EU countries. Subject to certain conditions, countries of the European Economic Area, candidate/potential candidate countries and European Neighbourhood Policy countries can also participate in the programme.”

If you participate, you pay your membership fees, and you can go to meetings. If you don’t, you save your fees, but you can’t go to meetings. Jeez.

You really don’t get what working across international barriers entails, do you Dazh?

Oh I do, I just don’t agree with them. As I’ve said before I’m a strong proponent of open borders and free movement. Especially for digital and creative industries which aren’t constrained physical geographical barriers. Or are you and others on here now arguing the opposite?

No, but, here’s the rub, it requires National governments to not only consent to it, but to actively be involved in it. To break down international barriers requires national governments to compromise and collaborate as well. To come together. Not revel in standing alone.

I don’t see why digital or creative industries should receive special treatment. On the contrary, participants in these sectors often use optimisation fiscale to avoid paying tax as they don’t need factories or things that are hard to ovoid tax on. Musicians are amongst the worst abusers and others aren’t far behind. I don’t want anyone taking part in EU stuff that isn’t registered for and paying tax in the EU ideally, and fulfilling similar conditions in any guest countries.

It’s just a small part of the unfair competition on a far from level playing field. To maintain the high level of social services, infrastructure, health care, education… the EU needs to be protectionist. The UK used to benefit from and to some extent abuse this protectionism, now it’s out I want the EU to protect me from the social and fiscal dumping taking place in the UK.

Oh I do, I just don’t agree with them.

Unfortunately for you, me and UK animators, they do not require your agreement.

I don’t agree with brexit but that doesn’t mean it suddenly doesn’t apply to me.

I bet the offer was made to maintain access for a fee, and old frosty turned it down.

I don’t see why digital or creative industries should receive special treatment. On the contrary, participants in these sectors often use optimisation fiscale to avoid paying tax as they don’t need factories or things that are hard to ovoid tax on. Musicians are amongst the worst abusers and others aren’t far behind.

Sweet Jesus! I’ve read some utter bollocks on here over the years, but that’s up there with the best of it.

The ‘creative industries’ in the UK are one of the few areas where we actually ate at the forefront of things. We are massive net exporters. Or we were. And contrary to that ill-informed, reactionary, Daily Mail-esque horse-shit statement, it generates a huge amount for the exchequer in tax revenues. Or it used to, anyway

But this governments culture wars means that they hate everything they don’t understand (in common with the above poster), and this lot find anything creative absolutely incomprehensible (in common with the above poster). Mainly as they’ve never had an original or abstract thought in their lives. Nadine Dorres is culture Secretary FFS!

Animation is a prime example. We’re actually really really good at it. Perhaps Nick Park is a tax dodger? Who knows? I doubt in Brexit Britain it’s the animators that are the worst offenders

it requires National governments to not only consent to it, but to actively be involved in it.

So back to my original question, is it actually against eu or uk law for Cartoon to invite UK contributors? In this tiny niche case, I don’t understand why governments are even involved, and certainly don’t think it’s good thing that they are. As I’ve said, I think politics might be at play here, rather than laws and regulations. I might be wrong though, and even if I am it doesn’t make it right.

For once I appear to agree with Binners. What I don’t understand is why all the arch-remainers here want to restrict the opportunities of animators to make a living. It’s very odd.

the EU needs to be protectionist.

Jeez, so now you’re arguing for protectionism? Of all the reasons to be in the eu, that would be the last one I chose.

I’ve read some bollocks on here over the years

Bollocks eh.

So which European (and EU) country “homes” an astonishing number of musicians? Clue, it’s not Britain and it’s not the first place you’d think of as a tax haven.

Jeez, so now you’re arguing for protectionism?

Absolutely, I don’t believe in a race the the bottom and the only way to avoid that is protectionism. It’s right at the heart of the EU DNA. I find it astonishing that you as a socialist are against protectionism, Dazh. You’ll be arguing againts unions next, a form of protectionism that I hope you approve of.

Christ now you’re having a go at the musicians? You do realise most of them are on their arse after the bottom fell out of the cd market when everything went digital?

There you go…. try educating yourself in some actual facts about the creative industries

I understand that having worked in the creative sector for the best part of three decades (I’ve spent today designing point of sale light boxes for Spanish retail) I’ll have to bow to your superior knowledge, having read something in the Daily Express this morning, but you never know… you might add to the sum of your clearly enormous grasp on the issue

is it actually against eu or uk law

No. You missed entirely how things work. Again. I presume deliberately. It is not “against the law”, we just aren’t involved. Because our government does not want to be. They chose for us. They have taken back control.

Wise up Dazh, people who are “on their arse” don’t pay tax. However:

https://www.corpwatch.org/article/netherlands-gimme-tax-shelter

I don’t believe in a race the the bottom and the only way to avoid that is protectionism.

Protectionism is the very thing that causes a race to the bottom. It massively amplified and prolonged the effects of the great depression. You might want to read up on some economic history.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2018/may/31/ben-sasse/protectionism-big-part-great-depression-ben-sasse-/

I find it astonishing that you as a socialist are against protectionism, Dazh.

A socialist? Jesus, talk about throwing unnecessary insults around. Where have you got that idea from? I’m way more radical and free-thinking than your typical socialist. Not that I think labels are very useful. And yes, I completely disagree with protectionism (unions fighting for higher wages isn’t protectionism BTW) as it creates beggar-thy-neighbour economic conditions which ultimately cause deflation which is very bad. It also has quite a good record at causing wars.

https://www.corpwatch.org/article/netherlands-gimme-tax-shelter

The Rolling Stones + U2 != the music industry.

You’ve getting confused between turnover and paying tax, binners. Amazon and Apple have turned over huge amounts of money in Europe and contributed to the GDP of the economies they operate in, and paid **** all tax.

I’m looking at tax and the way the creative industries avoid it. That was my start point, I’d appreciate you arguing that point rather than call “bollocks” on stuff I’m not even talking about.

I can see I’ve touched a nerve. Where’s the real money in music? Apple and spotify. And you know how much tax those companies they pay in the countries they operate in? None. And where does all this GDP fueling turnover end up? Open your eyes guys, you might stop buying music. One thing I can assure you is that the smaller bands on Spotify based in the UK won’t be seeing much of your money.

Did mention that junior is a producer, DJ and also doing a masters in “industries creatives” at Science Po, Paris. I get all this stuff every time I see him. Monetising your talent is really hard because the whole system is based around ripping the little people off and then getting the money to places where the tax man can’t get at it.

More protectionism needed. The only good thing is that even the US is losing out so might finally get on board with doing something about it.

You do realise most of them are on their arse after the bottom fell out of the cd market when everything went digital?

Good job taking their music live around Europe is still as cost- and hassle-free as possible!

It is not “against the law”, we just aren’t involved. Because our government does not want to be.

Thank you. So there are no legal reasons resulting from brexit which prevent uk animators from attending industry events in Europe. That’s all I wanted to know.

BTW what our govt wants is irrelevant if they don’t pass a law to make it happen. Priti Patel wants us to bring back hanging, but I haven’t seen anyone be executed yet.

I can see I’ve touched a nerve.

Not really, you’re just massively wrong on your defence of protectionism. TBF that’s not a surprise seeing as you live in France (I assume you still do), where it’s almost a religion. An entire economy built on ‘I’m alright jack and f*** everyone else’ principles, along with a political system rooted in authoritarian patriarchy and all the corruption that goes with it. At least they got the holidays thing right though. 😀

If you are bing paid to attend those industry events it’s looks to me like you’d need a visa for France. It’s not immediately obvious as one of the exempted sectors. You’d have to check with the consulate.

Dazh

As others have tried to explain

this thing for animators is a club. You need to be members to join. Various criteria are there to join in. Johnson and co have made sure we do not meet those criteria although we still could

Would you want someone who does not pay membership fees to be able to join in any activities of a club you run? someone who does not pay union dues still get representation> somone who is not a member of the labour party and pays no dues still get to vote on policy?

Pot kettle black, Dazh.

If you’ve followed the various “papers” and leaks sagas you’ll which “city” is at the heart of it all.

I think you need to compare the current ruling parties in the two countries, how elections are financed (Sarkozy has been convicted for stuff the Tories do as right), the level of disclosure required and the penalties for non-disclosure of assets (Cahuzac did a couple of years inside). How parties are financed. How the electoral system works, how we chose our head of state. Check out the way France works, you may end up admirative.

Not defending the uk, or any government for that matter, I despise them all fairly equally. But on the point with France I do think it’s massively patriarchal and authoritarian, which are classic socialist traits which unfortunately they never grew out of. Like I said they got the holiday thing right, along with discarding its royal family, but not much else unfortunately.

Have you ever been to France and / or had a look at their political system – far better than the UK ( although not the best in europe) How many of our corrupt MPs have been prosecuted?

Just recently we know that Kwateng took a bribe from an energy company then relentlessly promoted them. No action taken inde3ed he was promoted

The corruption of the tories would not happen in france nor can you get a huge majority of MPs on a minority of the vote

Would you want someone who does not pay membership fees to be able to join in any activities of a club you run?

Absolutely. If I ran a club I’d ensure it was organised so that it didn’t exclude people on the basis of fees or other quantified contributions. I’ve been a ‘member’ of many organisations/clubs/groups which organise themselves with very few rules, no entry requirements and no fees. The only requirement being mutual respect and enthusiasm. It works and it could easily be scaled up. Maybe the animation industry should give it a try?

And those ‘clubs’ were to facilitate multinational projects to be published in many different regions?

BTW what our govt wants is irrelevant if they don’t pass a law to make it happen.

The government not being part or associates of international bodies reduces the opportunities available to people. You don’t need a law, you just don’t take part, and your citizens aren’t involved. If you think that national governments only place limits on us by passing laws, then, well…

Maybe the animation industry should give it a try?

Why don’t you give it a try. Set it up for them using your own money and you can invite whoever the **** you like.

Plus, hopefully, it’ll keep you occupied long enough to give these poor **** – who have been trying to explain to you as if you were five – a break.