Braking technique on steppy steep

Any tips?

Rode a few places recently and struggled with this. Namely Top Chief and to a lesser extent the staircase on Laggan Black. The steppy terrain stalls your front wheel and causes weight shift, and the steepness puts your weight forward and demands that you brake to keep the speed down. It’s a lot easier if you can go faster as you don’t drop into every individual step so much and ride the lip of each one. You can learn that on some trails but there’s always unfamiliar or complex ones when you need to go slower.

One thing I found helped was to run more high speed compression damping to preserve the bike’s geometry and avoid pitching forward so much into each step when hit (and then rebounding harshly). The midstroke support when static is fine. Running higher handlebars would probably help with keeping the weight back, but I’m not going to do that for the odd bit of trail like this I encounter. My bike has a long reach (461) for my height (5’8″) and short chainstays (430), and while I’m not looking to replace it, I wondered if a shorter reach would pull me forward less in this kind of situation.

Of course the main limiting factor in this is my riding skills. I have brakes with good power and modulation, but it feels difficult to keep it braking when it’s weighted and on the ground, while avoiding it locking up inbetween steps and then getting stalled in the next hit/step/hole. Part of me thinks use the rear a lot more even if you’re skidding it down, then at least you’re not going to brake yourself OTB. Can’t think really what I could be doing differently.

What size wheels? I was at Laggan on Sunday for the first time in years and going from 26″ wheels to 29″ was like night and day. But apart from that I’m a much better rider now than I was 10 or 15 years ago. Not as fit but technically much better. Better skills means more speed which smooths things out, floating over the rough stuff. Stay as relaxed as possible and use your arms and legs and don’t just rely on the suspension.

Having sessioned Top Chief a bunch of times (and raced it), it helps to know where it is going through repetition.  Just doing a one and done on a tricky trail leaves you with more questions than answers.  Apart from that, my only suggestion is to get yourself nicely centred on your bike.  Make your position “low”, not “back”.  You’re absolutely right that it is easier with a bit of speed.

29″. I did think actually how tf does anyone ride this on any smaller wheels.

Speed isn’t an option when it’s unfamiliar, complex, or sustained. When there’s a short crux section on a trail, it’s easy enough to slow right down before entering it, pick up speed through it with minimal braking, then brake once out of it.

Have faith on your tyres and the berms

I don’t know about Top Chief but Laggan isn’t particularly steep. I get what your saying, there was one particular corner that nearly caught me out. I think there was a rise with a big rock on the corner and wasn’t carrying enough speed. With trail centre stuff you can put quite a lot of trust in that they’ve built it not to catch you out, if in doubt, go flat out. And flat out is relative, my flat out isn’t that fast but hopefully fast enough to stay out of trouble. I was out at the Golfie tonight and my last descent was my best because I kept telling myself to stay off the brakes and trust myself and the bike.

Tyres are fine and no berms in sight.

I mentioned Laggan specifically for those steps in the linked video, if you do them slowly them then the issue I describe happens. Looking at that video in slowmo, it seems the bike is bouncing down too much, he couldn’t brake there even if he wanted to.

I think Ben Cathro did a video that explains this much better than I can but I can’t find it so here goes.

I think the technique can be best described as reverse pumping.  Basically you are looking for any depressions you can find that you can drive the bike into to load up the tyres so that you can really brake hard, then off the brakes for any loose/bumpy areas, then find another decent place to brake hard.  Rinse and repeat.

Ironically it can be easier with smaller wheels/shorter wheelbase like with regular pumping but of course then that makes it harder to deal with the bumpy bits so I really wouldn’t worry too much about you bike geometry.  Once it gets really steep and gnarly it’s swings and roundabouts.

I’ve one local trail where the steepness and traction during braking are an issue, I find that internally screaming “fuuuuuuuuuuck” helps considerably.

Nobody mentioned which wheel you brake with? I find I have to overcome instinct to yank both brakes, so I’m controlling speed with rear and not using front so I still have traction and steering – the last thing I want is to lock the front sometimes I’ll even take finger off front brake so I don’t accidentally pull. You then can trust the front to take you in pointed direction and not lock and send you OTB.

Then I’m looking for braking points where I can safely apply both. If I really need to slow more I’ll pump front like ABS. And as above get low elbows bent so you are not trying to steer at arms length.

I think Ben Cathro did a video that explains this much better than I can but I can’t find it so here goes.

I think the technique can be best described as reverse pumping.  Basically you are looking for any depressions you can find that you can drive the bike into to load up the tyres so that you can really brake hard, then off the brakes for any loose/bumpy areas, then find another decent place to brake hard.  Rinse and repeat.

Can’t find it either, well I can find the videos but not the segment that covers this. I’m familiar with this technique anyway, but it’s only useful when the trail has such areas at regular intervals for you to use.

the last thing I want is to lock the front sometimes I’ll even take finger off front brake so I don’t accidentally pull

Interesting idea to break an intuitive reaction to brake or accidentally brake by tensing up.

I don’t think a 460 reach is ideal for my height in this particular situation. I’ve spotted that a few manufacturers give their slacker longer travel trail/AM bikes 10mm shorter reach in each size, than their mid travel trail bikes.

If you can brake without using the front, it’s not steep.

It’s hard to break it down what you have to do if you’re going down something properly steep with steps and ledges, but my two pence is,

Keep your shoulders strong, where the front goes is key. Weight centred and low, feather brakes 80:20 but as you’re stepping down don’t be afraid to slide a bit and then release. It’s about controlling speed. If the trail is actually the sort of thing you can let go a bit, this might not apply but that’s what I’ve done on trails where my backpack is sliding up over my head.

I’m fairly sure that they’ve reshaped the devil’s chessboard at laggan recently btw, it seemed way less awkward than I remember when I rode it the other day, I could be wrong but now it feels much more like a nice run of slabs than a pile of rocks as it did in the past to me, maybe shorter too? So maybe that’s the solution, brake at the top and wait til someone comes along and rebuilds it 🙂

Anyway- I reckon this is half brake and half body. Instead of having the bike basically fall down the steps and the suspension has to deal with all of that, with you perched on top, thump thump thump which leaves you with much less grip left for braking, if I want to brake I’m trying to help the bike “into” the step, keep body fairly stable and let the arms and legs lengthen as the bike falls and suck up the impact. The more you do, the less the bike has to. Suspension gets a much easier job which means it’s making more grip for you and the whole deal is more composed.

(if you’re doing it down a single small step you can visualise this as being like trying to keep your head completely level, like a chicken or a steadycam. That gets impractical with bigger steps but the same basic theory and technique applies. You’re putting the wheels on the ground more, and you’re smoothing the progress of the wheel and reducing the reaction of your body and the more you do those things the more grip there is, and the more you’re personally in control rather than making the bike do everything)

Brake wise, front is definitely about the braking points thing, brake only when there’s good contact and traction, and yes sometimes that means don’t brake at all or very little. But you can still generate a useful amount of front even on pretty steep stuff as long as you’re not also turning or doing something slippy, and it’s worth practicing on easier steeps so you can apply it on more technical or slipper steeps. You do want to be subtle about it, not big jerks of brake, it’s a fast process but it should still be smooth for the same reason of not upsetting the fork and not throwing your weight forward. Pull don’t grab. Honestly this can be hard with some brakes.

Rear is still wanting to be smooth but it’s not so essential, just becuase it doesn’t have the same big impact on the bike, it’s not diving the fork the same way or rotating you forward as hard. And because you can afford a little slide- by the time it gets really easy for it to slide, by definition it’s also got so little grip that the slide isn’t that big a deal. Also, of course it takes longer to actually get into the feature- if you’re braking “before” that can actually continue even when your front wheel’s well into it, the back is still basically up on the trail behind you and hasn’t experienced any change at all. When going really slow this smooths things out massively, you can even turn the front wheel’s movement from “fall down step” to “crawl down step”. On Top Chief a lot of the features or the cruxes of the features are actually really short and only one wheel’s ever really in it at a time (this is a wee bit deceptive, because you can have a couple of metres of rock but actually only one short bit is really working you hard. But it’s quite hard to reset the brain to thinking that way if you’re not used to it

Oh one last thing, you mentioned damping, steps are low speed compression not high. As a general rule, high speed compression is for when you ride into stuff, it’s the difference between dropping something vs throwing it at a wall. Lots of forks don’t separate the two out well but if you’re finding it divey down steps add low speed. I reckon a lot of people run too little rebound too if they’re not used to steepy techy stuff, it feels great for fast trails and jumps and that as it gives you pop but it makes it harder for plopping down stuff.

Interesting correction about the damping. I thought it’d be high speed as it’s caused by input from the trail rather than the rider. It surely is faster than pumping inputs. Maybe it’s mid-speed. My fork has replaceable compression stacks for low/medium/high speed compression damping, but only one adjuster dial which I presume moves the entire curve up and down on that chart. I did get bounced off line on the Laggan steps and I was wondering whether that meant I should use more compression damping (to reduce energy stored) or rebound damping (to control release of energy), as discussed in my recent thread.

IMO if you are looking at changing suspension setup for 1 feature you are trying to use it as a skills compensator.

Everything you read on suspension says set it up over and leave it alone

Improve your skills don’t use the bike as a reason

The two tips that have helped me the most with this are about body position and braking zones.

Body position is hinged at the hips with my heels down and toes slightly up. To do this effectively the pedal spindles need to be under the arch rather than the ball of my foot.

Braking zones are about either intentionally braking or being off them completely. Trying to avoid comfort braking. So I’ll control my speed coming into a technical section, spot my next braking zone, and then as braking becomes ineffective, let them off completely, roll down, and then brake in the next braking zone.

Riding a hardtail has amplified this for me. If I get it wrong I can feel the back wheel starting to skip, whereas my full sus is more forgiving.

Btw I think a shorter reach makes you more likely to go OTB rather than less.

I agree if the head angle is the same. Not sure about if the HA was slacker and the reach shorter, sounds like it would give you the same front centre but give you more freedom to move your weight back.

I find deliberately exaggerating elbow bend so I’m elbows up over the bars helps me deal with the front end- you’ve got a lot more travel and damping in your body than forks.

God just seeing advice like “weight back” and “no front brake” makes me cringe. Get strong on the handlebars and low, sternum to stem. Slow down on the steeps with the front brake, release brakes when you go down the steps and push the bike down hard to contact the ground as soon as possible after the steps. Look further down the trail to spot your braking points and use them to control your speed.

Hold your cringe for a moment. I’ve already said that this isn’t about a short section of steps you can just let go through. I get the technique you’re describing, it works for a limited section of steppy at limited steepness. Any steeper or longer and you need to brake on the steppy bit or you’ll soon be doing warp speed.

For a bike with a certain head angle, there is a slope angle at which your centre of gravity is in front of the front axle. Any braking/trapping of the front or further weight shift will send you OTB. Add steps into the equation and now your say X degree slope alternates from a bit steeper to a bit shallower as each wheel drops into each step and the suspension compresses. Worst case scenario, the fork has just landed onto a step and compressed a bit, while the rear is just going over the lip of an earlier step.

The option to pull your weight back is also useful if there’s a drainage channel across the middle of the steppy ground. If your long reach forces your weight to be forward, it seems to me that you’re not going to be able to unweight the wheel to go over it.