[Closed] Best grease for hub bearings

Moly is really for high temperatures and high speed, although it would work ok. Maybe just a bit thick.
Try some full synthetic grease like finish line or pedros?

I assume these are sealed cartridge bearings? I would not open the seals to add more grease. I would assume the bearing manufacturer know the correct amount of the correct grease to put in and by removing seals you are likely to damage them.

They are sealed with rubber seals, not metal, and it is perfectly common to pop the seals off to clean or lubricate them!

It was the hub manufacturer that recommended I do this.

Except TJ they never use a waterproof grease because the bearings are a standard industry size not normally used in the wheel/bottom bracket/headset of a bike that spends it's life splashing through puddles.

I tend to lift the seals on all new bearings I fit, wash them clean and fill with a Marine grease. If you are careful with a sharp blade you'll lift the seal without damaging it.

Im planning on getting a pot of marine grease for just such a use. Low fling, high waterproofness. Got be appropriate stuff no?

Best place to get marine grease? (no chandlery near me)
Also while we're on the subject silicone grease any ideas? Motorbike shop said halfords, halfords said motorbike shop, fairly confident lbs will say either "eh?" or "certainly sir £20 for 20g"

+1 for wanting to know where to get hold of marine grease as I am nowhere near a chandlery

Stoner - Member

Im planning on getting a pot of marine grease for just such a use. Low fling, high waterproofness. Got be appropriate stuff no?

I'd have thought it would be relatively high friction, but am unsure that would be too noticeable in hubs and BBs.

TandemJeremy - Member
"I assume these are sealed cartridge bearings? I would not open the seals to add more grease. I would assume the bearing manufacturer know the correct amount of the correct grease to put in and by removing seals you are likely to damage them."

This is a joke right?

Plenty of marine/waterproof grease on ebay or I'm sure you can mailorder it from somewhere, get a big tub of it, I used to get Morris stuff from my local boatyard when I had a canalboat and this was used in the stern tube, so figured it ok for my bike ...

Not a joke. I genuinely do not understand why anyone would do this.

A sealed bearing means no water entry so no need for waterproof grease. If water gets in the seals have failed and usually the seals fail after the bearing does - ie excess movement in the bearing destroys the seal.

Removing the seal increases the odds of the seal failing and allowing water in.

Maybe its just me but about many thousand miles on cartridge bearing hubs and only one bearing failed in that time. Winter and summer riding including once riding thru salt water over hub deep and plenty of river crossings.

Still - you guys obviously know better than SKF as to what grease your bearings need

TJ is once again spouting off like hes a white Jesus.

I'm with you TJ, from an engineering perspective lifting the seals is the single *most likely* cause of failure of the bearing. The seals are not meant to be used in cumbrian mud or immersed completely but that is why the hub should protect it from the main onslaught, and you can accept that if you go river crossing you may trash your bearings (though I've 1.5 decades from my hope cart bearing hubs and only replaced once due to a little play).

Over-packing bearings doesn't do them any good.
Using the wrong lube doesn't do them any good (though a good marine grease will be fine).
Plucking and stretching the seals doesn't do them any good.

But if you want to, go for it, just don't moan about how long they last.

Over packing bearings with grease will reduce their life
It can cause enough pressure in the bearing to cause the seal to pop & then let the crap in

Scruff. I said

I don't understand

Interesting this.... I've just bought sealed bearings for my Hope XC rear (SKF from simplybearings.co.uk). I took the seals off and was suprised to find a small amount of grease on one side and no grease on the other side. I packed them with grease and refitted the seal. Will be interesting to see how long they last then.

TJ in "taking extreme position" shocker. Oh my, it's on the basis of an "assumption" - what an admission!

The bearings put in hubs are made in high volumes for all sorts of applications - as I understand it mostly for higher-speed use indoors - that's why there ain't much grease in them.

IME most mtb cartridge bearings fail due to corrosion. Therefore: (1) seals are not waterproof. (2) Grease keeps water out. Unless you are cack-handed then (3) it's simple to remove and replace seals without damaging them. And so (4) greasing hub bearigns is gonna help.

SIMPLES!!! 😀

ps my lbw/employer got marine grease from ison. It's nice and thick but it is tough to comment on its effects.

pps What grease do folk pack shimano freehubs with?

to quote the guy in the engineering shop.............

Q: which grease would you use in XYZ?
A: this one (elbow towards grungy looking pot)
Q: which grease would you use in ABC?
A: this one (elbow towards same grungy looking pot)
Q: which grease would you use in DEF?
A: this one (yup the same one)

Al - wtf? Do you ever read anything I post? Why do you feel it needed to jump into full on attack all the time?

Sealed bearings fail - then the excess movement in the bearing destroys the seal, then water gets in causing corrosion. An equally valid explanation.

I am not the only one who would rather not risk damaging seals

TandemJeremy - Member

Sealed bearings fail - then the excess movement in the bearing destroys the seal, then water gets in causing corrosion. An equally valid explanation.

Based on what?

Based on my experience and my understanding of how seals and bearings work and based on others experiences as well.

Yours is pure conjecture and surmise so my explanation is equally valid as neither of us have anything other than surmise and conjecture

What evidence have you got that the chain of events is as you say not as I say?

You are being quite needlessly aggressive and unpleasant

I believe this thread is suffering from a lack of input from PeterPoddy at this time.

He is the true messiah of bearing care. TJ is a false prophet. 🙂

coffeeking - Member

I'm with you TJ, from an engineering perspective lifting the seals is the single *most likely* cause of failure of the bearing. The seals are not meant to be used in cumbrian mud or immersed completely but that is why the hub should protect it from the main onslaught, and you can accept that if you go river crossing you may trash your bearings (though I've 1.5 decades from my hope cart bearing hubs and only replaced once due to a little play).

Over-packing bearings doesn't do them any good.
Using the wrong lube doesn't do them any good (though a good marine grease will be fine).
Plucking and stretching the seals doesn't do them any good.

But if you want to, go for it, just don't moan about how long they last.

was suprised to find a small amount of grease on one side and no grease on the other side.

Don't be surprised, thats what happens when they're transported, grease isn't solid, it all falls to the lowest point.

TINAS - works if you're day to day engineering isn't overly sensitive. There is a reason there are loads of grease types out there, though a lot of the time it's small gains for large costs rather than application specifics.

Based on what?

Fair point. But which is more likely

1) Bearings fail because seals have failed (despite being protected from impacts/serious grit buildup etc by the hub bearing shroud, if properly designed)
2) Bearings fail because heavy use creating slightly larger gaps around the seals, meaning the seals fail, leading to corrosion and further destruction, looking like the seals failed first.

Having spoken to a few bearing manufs I've heard both said, straight from the manufacturers mouths. So both are valid answers IMO, but the act of pulling the bearing seal out and re-fitting is more likely to add a failure mode, I can't see anyone arguing that. And just because you have more grease in there doesn't mean the bearing is now grit-proof, it just means that if water gets in you get a grit/water/grease paste just as before, only you probably started with an over-packed bearing (stops the balls rotating properly and causes them to "skid").

TJ.

What makes you believe that the bearing wears first,causing play thus allowing water in past the seal?
Surely the seal not being 100% water tight, water entering and causing corrosion therefore instant wear, therefore play is just as if not more likely.

I base this on the No. of cartridge bearings I have stripped due to partial seizing, where the lube is almost absent and corrosion has started. Cleaning and re-lubing with a waterproof grease resolves the problems for many hundred of miles.

For example, I fitted a new XT HT11 BB to my mates bike for a trip to Wales. 2 day's very wet riding followed by washing the bike (no jetwash) and parking the bike up for a week caused the BB to be notchy and horrible. On stripping, the bearings were full of rusty water and very little grease. The BB was cleaned re-lubed with Marine grease and nearly 2 years on is still runing fine with no further maintainance.

And before you suggest my initial poor fitting was the cause, I can assure you I am more that qualified to fit a BB.

Read what coffeeking has posted.

I have explained myself as well as I can. is the xt bb you refer to a sealed cartridge bearing?

[img] [/img]

In most industrial applications, the grease is considered part of the sealing system and is supplied as part of the bearing kit (races, rollers and SPECIFIC amount of grease to be added during assembly come in the box.) As it is accepted that even 'sealed' bearings aren't perfect, as part of the maintenance procedure, the grease is flushed taking away the bits of carp that have passed the seals and been contained by the grease, the parts checks are checks and the bearing repacked.

As CK has said, you don't want too much grease or you get skidding, equally you don't want too little in high load applications as this can lead to micro-welding of the rolling elements to the race and pitting of the race/rollers (this is probably unlikely in most biking applications - a bigger problem will be impact loading of the roller on the race surface at low rotating speeds).

As others have stated, the average hub cartridge bearing are stock parts designed for 'average' conditions (high speed, low load, benign environmental conditions) and given the relatively low speed and wet conditions on a bike, adding more/extra grease and flushing it every now and again is PROBABLY better.

This are the musings of a bearing application engineer client of mine, whilst drinking several beers in a German hotel a couple of years ago - take or leave it, but it works for me 😉

TJ. Yes an XT Hollowtech 11, BB.

Now I'm REALLY confused...

TJ, don't you Anarchists use CountryLife butter in your hubs?

[img] [/img]

Unfortunately people rarely flush their bearings before damage has occurred, so all you have left are pre-damaged bearings getting a last sprint of life, there's no way of knowing if it was the wear that caused the seals to fail or the seals that caused the corrosion to occur. This sort of thing takes serious investigation. I too have had this conversation with a bearing manufacturer, regarding the HTII bearings in fact, and his comment was that it makes far more sense to buy cheap bearings and replace them regularly than to waste time and effort re-packing regularly enough to make a difference and carefully enough not to damage the seals, or to use fancy materials (stainless).

FWIW hub bearings are generally loaded WAY below their industrial load limits and IME last extremely well in a well designed (even basic design) hub. The HTII bearing arrangement seems almost designed to force grit and water into the bearing and trap it there, it seems like an inherently weak design and so I'm not surprised the seals can't cope. When I took mine apart there was a serious amount of junk stuck behind the tophats, being ground into the seals.

CoffeeKing, while I understand your point of

Don't be surprised, thats what happens when they're transported, grease isn't solid, it all falls to the lowest point.

Makes me wonder if genuine Hope bearings have more grease than off the shelf type?

A sealed bearing means no water entry so no need for waterproof grease.

hollow laughter - then why are mine always full of rust after 6 months ?

Because bicycles and their bearings are not designed for the life acquatic that you lead Barnes. 😀

I use Silkolene Pro RG2 available from all good motorbike dealers/shops.

They are cheap, so just change them and stop worrying.

Last time I spoke to a bearing supplier about some 68052RS bearings (same size as hughjayteens is using in his Maverick hub) their response was thus...

"What application you using them for, is it on a Mountain bike? If so, buy cheap bearings, pack em full of grease, and expect to change em often. Mountain biking subjects bearings to extreme conditions far beyond what they're normally subjected to, so pack em full of grease to prolong the ingress of water and grit, and buy em cheap cos the good quality ones won't last significantly longer!"

😕

Yeah seriously, I was a little shocked too... But then think about it, how many (similarly small) cartridge bearings are subjected to such high torque, low RPM loads, at the same time dealing with repeated jetwashing, tonnes of mud of all types, and a general lack of maintenance? Suppose he's got a point...

Let us know how you get on with the SKF's Hugh, see if they last any better... Got 2 Maverick front hubs with less than good quality bearings right now, both wheels only having done about 25 rides each.

Personally, when I buy some new bearings, I'll be popping the seal off one side, putting some extra grease in there, popping the seal back on then inserting the bearing so that the seal I popped is on the inside of the hub, leaving the non popped seal to face the dirt and grit on the outside...

I can highly reccomend Rock 'n Roll super web grease. Very good stuff, sticks like sh... to a blanket and lasts ages.

The SKF bearings I had in an Aerozine BB lasted all of about 2 months before they seized due to rust. Opened them up to find no sign of anything but dirt, flushed out and packed full of grease they lasted another year.

So empirically I'd say more grease is better.

I poped the seals off my external BB and after 3 mths summer use the non drive had no grease and was rusting to the point of seizure.
I would prefer not to pop seals but see little to be gained in not doing this as MTB is noit their ideal scenario.
Marine grease - if you live near a canal-there will be a chandlery shop/diesel point about every 10 miles ish to get grease. It is not dear but you will need to get bigish tubs.
I am not entirely sure if it is inherently any better than normal grease but it is designed to lubruicate the propshaft and stop the ingress of water through the thingy [cant recall name at minute but the hole in your boat where prop enters engine bay]. I would have thought all grease was waterproof not sure why it would be better.

FWIW in 10 years of mtbing, I have to agree with Cynical-al and that Bowden fella.

IME grease gets washed out first, and then corrosion sets in. I too have rejuvenated part-seized bearings that are relatively young, and after being packed have lasted a reasonable service life.

That said, cheap bearings replaced often seems to be the least hassle overall.

Anyone that thinks sealed bearings are truly sealed should take a close look at them. On many, especially the cheaper bearings, the rubber shroud doesn't actually touch the inner race, but is a close-tolerance fit - i.e. there is actually a gap there.

If anyone thinks bearing play (movement between inner and outer races) causes seal failure, I'd urge those people to go and seriously examine how much play the rubber seal has - Its quite substantial, and is why, if you're careful, its easy to disturb the seal to re-grease the bearings. Acros and a number of other component manufacturers actually recommend you can do this as part of what is regarded as normal servicing.

junkyard- nothing to contribute to bearings, but the boat thing is a [url= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuffing_box ]stuffing box.[/url] My favourite boaty term. 🙂

What an entertaining thread 🙂

Phil Wood waterproof grease.

hollow laughter - then why are mine always full of rust after 6 months ?
[b]BigDummy: [/b]Because bicycles and their bearings are not designed for the life acquatic that you lead Barnes.

so "sealed" means "only splashproof" ??

I had "sealed bearings" in a bottom bracket once. They were only sealed on the outside so any water inside the frame had no problem getting in.

This article suggests Castrol CL but I find it a bit thin
http://www.offroadadventures-online.com/tips3.html

This seems thicker but I haven't had it in long enough to find out if it lasts well.
X-tra Heavy Duty Bearing Grease Marine Spec
http://www.dukeriesengineering.com/10325/info.php?p=11&pno=0

TandemJeremy - Member
Based on my experience and my understanding of how seals and bearings work and based on others experiences as well.

Yours is pure conjecture and surmise so my explanation is equally valid as neither of us have anything other than surmise and conjecture

What evidence have you got that the chain of events is as you say not as I say?

You are being quite needlessly aggressive and unpleasant

Conjecture? Like your arguments? My many years LBS wrenching counts for nothing?

To follow your justification, I could quote Maverickboy, bristolbiker, Michael Bowden (how did he get a space in his name?) etc etc.

My (wrench) experience is that failed bearings have **** all grease in them, and (personal) those with lotsa grease last longer. No way is the "seal" actually waterproof, esp when a piece of grit etc gets in there. Have you ever taken a seal out? Seriously, there need be no deformation ,even if a tine bit was relevant.

I guess my point is that you persistently argue (& frequently take extreme positions on) points that you admit you don't [u]know[/u] much about - you even admit to assumption in your first post. You should direct your efforts towards a field where you can truly prove yourself (go on mastermind?) rather than the internet.

I'm not the only one berating you for this behaviour for the last few years am I?

the act of pulling the bearing seal out and re-fitting is more likely to add a failure mode, I can't see anyone arguing that.

*puts hand up*

al - why do you feel the need to attack me all the time? My points were logical and not without support from others. Your own arguments are full of holes that I could easily pick apart

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye

I will not engage with you at all anymore. I find your charging into the attack without reading what I say extremely aggressive and unpleasant and you have shrunk in my estimation as a result

Hey guys. I have cheap off the shelf bearings, INA SKF and Enduro max in stock. What say I take 3 of each bearing water proof one with moly thin greaser one with thicker standard grease and one with nothing throw them all into some containers with water and we will see what happens to them. The fact that they are constantly submerged in water should speed up any process that occurs and let us know a bit more about the situation. If you want to do this let me know and we will see what we see.

:lol:Nice one MaveickBoy..."Personally, when I buy some new bearings, I'll be popping the seal off one side, putting some extra grease in there, popping the seal back on then inserting the bearing so that the seal I popped is on the inside of the hub, leaving the non popped seal to face the dirt and grit on the outside"....

Having worked with bearings for more than 30 years in industry, I can vouch for the grease packing theory. Many of the high speed conveying systems I work on, have bearing housings with grease nipples for periodic re-greasing. These are running 24/7, 50 weeks a year, with many running for 10+ years. One thing I have noticed on these bearings, even after wiping away excess grease from them, is a fine line of grease running around the lip of the bearing seal, lubing the seal and filling any tiny gap in a cappiliary (did I spell that right :|) way.

On the subject of grease. Not all grease runs or flows as mentioned elswhere in this thread. Some greases are almost like lard in their consistency, and only work well when warmed, then the grease starts to flow. This isn't a problem for the likes of cars, motorbikes etc. where the speeds and brake heat help to warm the hub bearings when in use. Whereas on mtb the grease hardly ever warms. This can lead to a situation where the balls and race in mtb bearing are virtualy bare of any surface grease. Muddy water getting past the tiny lip seal will very quickly corode these parts when the bike is parked-up. The resulting pitted race and balls, along with the rust particles and remaining gritty water, will accelerate the wear very quickly.

While i'm on a roll....BB bearings (as has been mentioned a few times on here) nearly always seem to fail on the none drive side first. My theory on this is, the drive side crankset offer protection from thrown-up crap and spray, whereas the contour at the back side of the non driveside crank offers a nice little V shape to guide any unwanted crap into the seal area of the BB.

And finaly, Chris King obviously believe forcing more grease into a BB will increase its life. As I do with my take on BB re-greasing 😆

[IMG] [/IMG]

poor grammar aside, 5spot has it!

TandemJeremy - Member
al - why do you feel the need to attack me all the time? My points were logical and not without support from others.

as were mine. Cos you have an internet-research/assumption-based opinion on pretty much EVERYTHING.

Your own arguments are full of holes that I could easily pick apart

Bring it!...oh but at this point you say:

I will not engage with you at all anymore.

How convenient!

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye

I have no idea who you are quoting but it seems to me like you are trying to sound cleverer/more knowledgeable than me. Have you applied this "reasoning" to yourself?

Let's have a pint some time. I still have your tools and you owe me some chain lube.

Al - I will e mail you.

Sad I know but I've popped both seals off one bearing, cleaned it out, filled it with Silkolene RG2 and fitted it on the disc side of a hub with a non treated bearing on the other.

Not the worlds most scientific test but I now always pop the seals and give them a proper filling. After all, my hubs spin a lot slower than the design speed so a bit of extra grease isn't really an issue.

The viscosity of the grease in relation to its resistance to environmental factors will determine the best grease for this application.

What Simon said 'Phil Woods' bearing and it's nice green colour.

very nice fivespot - I remember you posting up the thread when you did that. I assume its still running well?

Also, where did you get the grease nipple from?

kaesae - by what action does bearing grease viscosity relate to environmental factors and how does it improve the situation? I presume you're suggesting a thicker grease = better, though I can't quite determine that from your post?

Scienceofficer....its still the same one, and still going strong. The grease nipples are from industrial spherical joints. They are almost identical to the Zerk grease ports found on Turners, and use the same type of grease gun.

fivespot - do your bearings have a seal on both sides ?

won't you just pop one or other off eventually ?

scaredypants-the bearings are original HT II items, which have a conventional rubber lipped seal on the inside and a unique Shimano design seal on the outside, which has a lip that works against the inner face of the plastic tophat/sleeve. I use a light semi fluid grease (usualy one shot after a wet/crappy ride) which, under pressure will displace some of the existing grease past the seals. No popped seals.

I've worked in engineering for 28 years currenty work at a papermill. Over 1000 bearings on one machine. We only use SKF and FAG in most positions and I'm in regular contact with the service guys at both.
SKF technical support at Luton if anyone wants to contact them.
SKF recommend a bearing is filled to about a 1/3 with grease in sealed-for-life bearings but these bearings will be running at up 3000rpm not 100rpm like on our bikes. Also they wont be subjected to the crap our bikes are subjected to when riding through the rivers and puddles as I have been today!
SKF have advised me in the past on a particular job in work to remove the seals and re-pack with a different grease. So I dont see a problem with removing seals (carefully).
I've always removed the seals and re-packed them full with waterproof synthetic grease in my pivot and BB bearings with no problem. Overpacking with grease is not recommended when they're doing 3000rpm. Not a problem at 100rpm. In fact at 100rpm they're probably generating enough speed to set up a hydrodynamic lubricating film which most of the greases are designed for. The only reason I overpack is to keep the water out!
Just my opinion. I'm sure someone will disagree.

Coffeeking. There are two main factors for consideration as I see it in this situation and relative to the evaluation of what is required through analysis to determine which grease is best suited to this application. Do you agree that there are two main characteristics required from the grease ?. Longevity and rotation of the bearing.