POINTLESS TO KEEP GOING ON ABOUT IT

And your point is?

Its not pointless but if this is accepted I have no issues discussing what causes someone to do this.

It has not been clear from all posters that they accept this basic fact

You are correct that it can be a simplification and many factors are at work in establishing how an individual is in this imbalance.

Good post Junky.

Now that it seems we’re reaching some form of baisc concensus…

It surprises me that even now some people do not count fluids as part of their energy intake… let alone realise how much sugar there is in coke or fruit juices.

More shocking is the people that know and carry on anyway!

it wouldn’t seem unreasonable to assume that some people have stomachs and intestines that are poorer at extracting energy from food than others. Hence the possibility of some skinny people being able to stuff themselves and stay slim.

That sounds plausible if not likely

Out of interest, when medics feed people in a coma via a pipe, I presume they guesstimate their BMR and therefore the required calories [aside from the nutrients] to keep that person’s weight stable?
Let’s presume this poor coma patient is neither under or over weight
Do they then have to keep weighing them to make sure the feed is tailored to that persons particular gut efficiency?
If so, I bet there’s a spread of figures collected from years of data for any given age/sex/hieght

It has not been clear from all posters that they accept this basic fact

It’s like saying it’s not falling from a height that kills you but hitting the ground.

The problem is that people think ‘oh I’ll just eat less and do more exercise’. This can work, but it often doesn’t for a variety of reasons. Leading to people giving up, doubting the science or thinking they are a special case.

Which is why treating it as a mantra can be counterproductive.

The problem is that people think ‘oh I’ll just eat less and do more exercise’. This can work, but it often doesn’t for a variety of reasons.

I will have a dig about to see if I can locate it

But there was a six week controlled study of 100 people where their food intake and exercise was monitored
Every single one lost weight, some obviously more than others but they all lost

This can work, but it often doesn’t for a variety of reasons

My view is that the failures often don’t actually follow the ‘mantra’.
They move more and then reward themselves with a can of coke, or they drink energy drinks because they’re exercising or add a protein shake because they want to get lean.

People are terrible at underestimating what they’ve actually eaten in a day.

If you overeat a lot on protein or fat… would you still gain weight? I mean would your body release insulin or would it pass straight through you in waste?

My view is that the failures often don’t actually follow the ‘mantra’

Not mine. And that can be a very unhelpful attitude, assuming people are being thick or in denial when there could be many other factors at work.

Mol – it’s ‘tough love’ isn’t it. It’s not long a go that you gave up the pre and post ride cans of coke!

I don’t mean to be rude but it certainly seems like you wouldn’t ever strictly follow that mantra.

There could be many other factors… but they could also be in denial about how much they eat.

People are terrible at working out how much they eat… estimates have been seen to be as low as 30% of the actual intake.

The post ride can stays.

It’s not ‘tough love’ it’s making things far harder than they need to be.

They COULD be in denial, but there could also be simple things that they are not aware of. The traditional weight loss diet for example is low fat high carb, and as we know that can be very counterproductive. So people follow the traditional advice and can become very frustrated, eating things that are supposedly ‘good for you’.

For example, people are told to eat lots of fruit and veg. Well, lots of fruit can make it hard to lose weight.

Personally I find fruit has quite a high satiety effect so it’s pretty hard to consume a large amount of calories this way.

Yes it may have an insulin response but if you only ate apples… you’d lose weight.

I guess I’m actually becoming a little intolerant of fatties… I don’t find it acceptable. If they’re happy, fair enough. If they’re not… it really isn’t difficult to sort it out.

People are terrible at working out how much they eat… estimates have been seen to be as low as 30% of the actual intake.

My wife was telling me about a programme on TV over tha last few days – “secret eaters”, where ‘large people’ were monitored both in their knowledge, and by a PI!

A taxi drive took in three thousand calories whilst on his evening shift, just in snacky things (sandwich, KFC, kebab, then meal at home).
He simply didn’t realise what he was eating.
To ask him, he’d be in the “I don’t eat much” camp……

DrP

DrP I caught an episode of that… a lady was eating in excess of 3000 calories a day during the week, more at the weekend… she kept a food diary that recorded 1200.

Surprise, surprise when she realised and did something about it she started losing weight.

It’s like magic or something.

Blimey guys, I’m lagging! And they say women can talk for England … 😉

Personally I find fruit has quite a high satiety effect

Not for me. I stopped eating it for a healthy snack ages ago because it had no effect.

I knew a bloke who became fruitarian to try and lose weight. He gained 2 stone.

It really isn’t difficult to sort it out.

How tf would you know?

This is what makes me so angry about smug thinnies. They assume that because it was easy for them (or most likely has never been a problem) that anyone who isn’t skinny is just useless.

If you’ve never had a problem with it then you’re in absolutely no position to tell anyone how easy it is.

I might as well give out advice on how to stop smoking. Resisting fags is incredibly easy, I’ve never smoked one in my life! Just pull yourself together!

*chucks C_G an energy bar so she can keep up*

Resisting fags is incredibly easy

As Yeti well knows

Mol – I wouldn’t call it a problem because I can focus on it and sort it out.

I weigh a little over 11 stone at the moment but have been as much as 13.

Stopping smoking really is as simple as you describe! It’s the same as staying away from cheesecake… ‘just say no’.

Come on… why is it so difficult for you? Why hasn’t the iDiet seen you down to 12% BF yet?

Is ‘tough love’ working for you yet?

I found quitting fags easier than cakes.

People are terrible at working out how much they eat… estimates have been seen to be as low as 30% of the actual intake.

At Alton Towers, my friend’s girlfriend once asked me about Weight Watchers, and was saying how she couldn’t lose weight, despite “not eating that badly”. She was a bit miserable about it, because we’d queued for nearly an hour to go on Rita (the rollercoaster), but when she got in the car they couldn’t close the restraint over her, so she couldn’t go on it.

Then we went to the food court, and she ordered a BBQ family sharing platter… for herself.

Actually… balls to it. You’re not even fat Molly!

Ok you’re not racing snake thin, but you’re not built that way. Fat people nowadays can’t get on rollercoasters!

Over the years I’ve tried all sorts of weight loss ideas to try to get myself back to fighting fit ASAP after my Winter excesses – Atkins, Weight Watchers, idave etc etc

They all work and you’ll lose weight with all of them if you follow the rules

This one of simply eating less and moving more is the best for me that I’ve found

I don’t buy all the biology/chemistry of one over the other, I reckon it’s as simple as whichever one best suits your lifestyle is the one that works best

I found quitting fags easier than cakes

Absolutely. Despite my girth making my riding a misery sometimes, I cannot give up the bread and so it continues. Giving up fags was a piece of piss compared to giving up snacks.

How can you store energy if the energy of what you eat is less than the energy you use?

EnergyIn = EnergyOut + EnergyStored

Perhaps overeating calories from the wrong sources, thus causing them to be stored as fat, reduces the energy left over for EnergyOut? hence the lethargy and vicious cycle that leads to weight gain?

With that, I’m off to the pub.

Edit: Yeah C_G… that’s not a Litespeed?

TSY – no, twas the Juliana.

Phil – metabolism has slowed down and in fact I don’t tend to have an appetite. I did start riding again after my dark side accident last year, was managing around 20 (slow) miles off road. Can’t really see how I can eat less, sometimes never bothered with lunch anyway.

Do agree with your comment about being fixed with a tablet cos that’s how GPs treated me. After all that’s much easier than looking at someone’s medical record and realising that we rarely see this person so she couldn’t possibly be making it up!

GPs seem to stick together, other ones I’d seen at the same surgery just fobbed me off. Laziness and not doing their job properly, imo.

Yes, depression can be a feature of thyroid disorders and quite frankly the treatment I’ve received has been enough to piss anyone off.

put me back on my bike

Yonks ago there was a theory about brown adipose tissue, brown fat around the kidneys iirc, being responsible for burning surplus fat in naturally slim people, just producing heat.

I wonder what happened, did it get trounced?

But it’s a useless oversimplification.

I just don’t think it is. Sure there’s a miriad of complexities around it that may drive you to want more, feel like you need more, not want to exercise to use more (just as there’s a miriad of complexities to engine control and fuel economy etc) but ultimately the equation stands as much for humans as for a hybrid car, you get out no more than you put in less some efficiency factor, overall. All the rest is ultimately just psychology and people being too weak to force themselves to do things and stop eating so much.

That Lustig chap must be off his rocker – biochemistry makes people fat and laziness and disease is the result?! I think he’s missing some clear scientific processes in that thinking. What he effectively and well articulates in that vid is that he doesn’t like telling people it’s their fault so he found a different way of putting it that made people happy to see they’re a victim in all of this and need some help. Grow a pair and take responsibility for yourself. Sure there’s a few diseases about that can tend to make you feel less like doing exercise and cause you problems but it’s still your responsiblity to deal with it. If you don’t have an apetite because your metaolism has crashed, don’t eat so much, you won’t gain weight. (not aiming specifically at you there cg, just using it as an example) I know it’s not easy, but life isn’t. Anything worth doing isn’t easy.

Grow a pair and take responsibility for yourself

*insert applause gif here*

I find being magnificent in bed being easy. And it’s worth doing.

I find being magnificent in bed being easy. And it’s worth doing.

That sort of recognition has to come from your partner, not you 😀

Good point.

*asks mrs deadly*

She says “No”. 🙁

That sort of recognition has to come from your partner, not you

It’s OK she mentioned he was very good 😉

Yonks ago there was a theory about brown adipose tissue, brown fat around the kidneys iirc, being responsible for burning surplus fat in naturally slim people, just producing heat.

But this is kinda the other end of the spectrum, isn’t it.

If the question were:
“why can thin people eat bucket loads and stay thin”, then answer IS related to their metabolism (they DO create excess heat, and actually form more muscle even in the absence of exercise).

However, if you have a slow metabolism, it simply means you need less energy (calories) to ‘stay alive’ compared to someone with a high metabolism.

But…
And put it this way….

If you ate NOTHING, but simply drank water, you would get thin before you died.

DrP

In a somewhat strange coincidence I just got home to find I’ve been randomly selected to take part in a clinical research project at Oxford Uni’s Centre for Diabetes, Endocroinolgy and Metabolism.

Proper bodyfat measurement here I come… 🙂

[evil laughter] My army of clones will soon be built[/evil laughter]

I hope DD is doing the probing??

Stopping smoking really is as simple as you describe!

If that’s so, then why do so many people find it so hard? Is it because they are all stupid and useless?

but ultimately the equation stands as much for humans as for a hybrid car

Well not really – a car is a very simple model. Work done is a function of altitude gained, air resistance and road resistance, and all the fuel used is burned in the same way.

Humans are far more complicated than that, and crucially many of the factors are unknown to an individual.

This is important, because people often fail without knowing why, when trying to make sense out of the mass of advice. This is a pretty crappy place to be because of people like Yeti insisting it’s easy. It makes you feel like you are stupid and worthless, which isn’t nice.

Yes, some people are filling their faces and in denial. But many aren’t, they ARE taking responsibility and trying to fix things, and are wondering where tf they are going wrong. Whilst hating themselves.

Yeti you are talking about idle cake surfing couch eaters. I am not. Not all overweight people are like this, I have first hand evidence.

If you are talking about the morbidly obese who can’t stop eating, then that is another issue.

Do you know that people can actually hurt themselves deliberately? With knives and stuff? People can actually WANT to kill themselves too.

Yes, Molly I am aware of that. What is your point though?

Regarding smoking… stupid is unfair… useless, IMO, definitely.

Have you a solution for these overweight people that you speak of?

Oh, and I don’t think it’s easy… but it is simple.

Easy and simple are synonymous in this context.

My point is that sometimes people wilfully do things to hurt themselves. Also sometimes people know they are hurting themselves but can’t stop. Then there’s people who are hurting themselves but are in denial, and finally people who are hurting themselves but don’t know it.

There are a lot of complex issues here. Do you think alcoholics anonymous classes should consist of someone telling the group that they are useless and should simply stop drinking? Do you think that would work?

Do you know what happens at an AA meet?

It seems quasi-religious to me… certainly wouldn’t work for me!

I was making a distinction between how simple the process is and how easy it is to follow. Yes there are other factors involved… I don’t agree with the cotton gloves approach. If that’s what works for you, great.

It sounds like you’re moving towards saying weight problems are psychological…