Beginners guide to nuclear power stations ?

you still deny the severity of the japanese accident. Well still don’t know the full extent but it is far greater than you or anyone else on the pro nuke side said possible

The only thing I’m denying is that the nuclear part of the earthquake incident is in any way comparable in severity on a human scale to the devastation caused by the rest of it. Feel free to check back exactly what severity I suggested was possible – obviously you know better than me, as I can’t remember making any comment on that.

It is quite possible that thousands will die from this – its now the worst accident ever apart from Chernobyl and that cost at least 10 000 lives.

Which is such a typical hype filled comment from your side of the argument. I’d love for you to explain to me how it is in any way comparable to Chernobyl – being the worst apart from Chernobyl simply means that it’s gone past the previous 2nd worst (3 mile island?) though suggesting a death toll comparable to that wouldn’t suit your argument would it?

Levels of radioactive iodine in the sea near the tsunami-stricken Fukushima nuclear plant are 1,250 times higher than the safety limit, officials say.

Which would clearly be a problem if you drank the seawater or went for a swim there – I’d recommend you avoid doing either of those.

A psychorigid person will decide that even if most of France is far enough south to be considered southern Europe in the context of solar production it can’t be in southern Europe as some of it’s regions are on the Channel.

Somebody with the ability to read might note that nobody has suggested Southern France was in Northern Europe. I got the distinct impression that somebody on here was attempting to deny that France (Northern part – I didn’t realise I needed to spell that out for the hard of comprehension), Germany and Benelux are in the conventional definition of Northern Europe despite getting far higher concentrations of sun than even Southern England.

I’d have thought somebody with the ability to read and a half decent memory might also be able to tell whether somebody who’s made a fairly significant contribution to such discussions on this thread was in favour of investing in viable alternatives to nuclear (as opposed to non-viable ones).

How many bad nuclear accidents have their been in 50 odd years? How many are still in the news?

How many news stories are there about the dire consequences of climate change?

Just a couple of talking points – those are not rhetorical questions.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-12860842

Damn – I’ve just realised I’m completely wrong. I can’t possibly agree with Monbiot

the point is aracer that you and the nuclear apologists continuously downplay how serious this is, and you are doing it in your last post.

People will die as a result of this nuclear accident. We don’t know how many yet. it is still getting worse. Every day the news is worse, more radioactive contamination, more releases.

We see how cavalier they have been with safety, storing large amounts of spent fuel rods in breach of the operating conditons which has contributed to the severity of the accident. The sequence of events was totally predictable in that a big earthquake which is always possible in the area will trigger a tsunami which will flood the reactors.

They were left with no effective way of cooling the plant which has led to the partial meltdown of the cores and of the stored spent fuel rods. Teh plant is destroyed and will never produce any electricity again. It will just be a massive cost to the country for decades if notr centuries

of course the nuclear apologists tell uus its all perfectly safe – wheras the actual eveidence is that it is not. Accidents happen. people take short cuts and / or break the rules as in tis case by storing spent fuel rods on site in an unlisenced manner.

Teh problem with nukes is when it goes wrong it goes very wrong indeed. it is perfectly feasable that core material / fission products will leak if they are not already. We know as it has been admitted that the cores are breached and containment is breached – something we were told could not happen.

any release of radiactivity leads to increased cancers

As yet we simply do bnot know the extent of this accident. Teh situation is still not under any sort of meaningful control and is still getting worse.

This incedent shows that nuclear powr is simply not safe. how many serious accidents have their been? how many deaths?

And it continues to get worse.

Reports from Japan say radioactivity in water at reactor 2 at the damaged Fukushima nuclear plant is 10 million times the usual level.

Workers trying to cool the reactor core to avoid a meltdown have been evacuated, Reuters news agency says.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12872707

so all this water they are pumping in to the reactors to attempt to cool them – what are they ging to do with it?

the point is aracer that you and the nuclear apologists continuously downplay how serious this is, and you are doing it in your last post

Meanwhile the haters continue to upplay it – tell me what evidence you have for your thousands of deaths assertion?

People will die as a result of this nuclear accident earthquake/tsunami. We don’t know how many yet.

FTFY. If you were really worried about people getting killed you’d be busy campaigning against people living near the coast in these areas rather than going off on one about nuclear power. I’ve seen perfectly rational suggestions that far more people died in the aftermath of the quake due to the power being off than will ever die due to radiation.

which has led to the partial meltdown of the cores

Evidence for that assertion?

Teh problem with nukes is when it goes wrong it goes very wrong indeed.

Because of course every single incident involving a nuclear power station has resulted in thousands of deaths?

any release of radiactivity leads to increased cancers

I’d stay away from Cornwall if I were you, TJ.

This incedent shows that nuclear powr is simply not safe. how many serious accidents have their been? how many deaths?

Here you go, TJ
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_accident
Looking at the numbers there, I reckon what we need to do to avoid deaths from radiation is not have nuclear power in the Soviet Union (are you still suggesting anything like Chernobyl is likely to happen anywhere else?) and stop using radiotherapy.

Meanwhile this shows that windfarms aren’t safe, this shows hydroelectric isn’t safe, or is it somehow worse being killed due to an accident at a nuclear power station because such incidents are so rare? ISTR we’ve already done this one showing just how incredibly safe nuclear actually is, yet you continue to deny such figures.

We see how cavalier they have been with safety, storing large amounts of spent fuel rods in breach of the operating conditons which has contributed to the severity of the accident.

A very serious accusation. Has this been confirmed? I thought this was conjecture at the moment? References?

The sequence of events was totally predictable in that a big earthquake which is always possible in the area

A smaller earthquakes were predictable. This one was unpredictably large. Everything carries some risk, and risk is not black and white. It’s about percentages.

will trigger a tsunami which will flood the reactors.

We cannot have a reasoned debate if people keep posting factually incorrect statements. The tsunami did NOT flood the reactors. It flooded the area containing the backup generators.

Everything carries some risk, and risk is not black and white. It’s about percentages

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Didn’t you know nuclear power isn’t safe? People die due to it. Totally unlike any other form of electricity generation.

We cannot have a reasoned debate if people keep posting factually incorrect statements.

Don’t spoil things for them, buzz. If we don’t let them post factually incorrect statements they won’t have anything at all to base their arguments on.

This thread has been going for over two weeks now and yet no one has won the argument.

Come on lads………….sort it out.

Should it not be radioactive caesium you should be worrying about? Radioactive Iodine decays pretty quick, so if most of the population are evacuated its not going to have a long term impact (assuming it hasn’t spread far). On the other hand the ceasium isotope hangs about for decades. There are still UK sheep farms that cannot sell their stocks due to high levels of Cs from Chernobyl.

TJ quotes the BBC article

radioactivity in water at reactor 2 at the damaged Fukushima nuclear plant is 10 million times the usual level.

…10 million times sounds pretty scary. But what does it actually equate to…?
Well its about 1 seivert/hour.
Current estimates are 0.08 fatal cancers per seivert dose. So if you stood all the Fukushima 50 in the water for an hour then its likely 4 of them will eventually develop terminal cancer.

That 8/100 workers exposed will develop cancer is very bad. Would you go to work with those odds? I re-iterate: the risks at the stage are primarily on the workers who are trying to recover the situation. The risk to the general public is not high. Think of the workers.

“There are still UK sheep farms that cannot sell their stocks due to high levels of Cs from Chernobyl”

Are they not in Cumbria? Isn’t that a clue to the real cause?

Are they not in Cumbria? Isn’t that a clue to the real cause?

No, Scotland.

That 8/100 workers exposed will develop cancer is very bad

Yes it is, but that’s if they are right at the source for an hour. Apply the inverse square law and this figure falls dramatically.

Stand 10 metres away and its 8/10 000
Stand 100 metres away and its 8/1 000 000
Stand 1km away and its 8/100 000 000

So yes, I agree, the risk is primarily to the workers. As I said earlier in the thread, hats off to them (or it might have been a similar thread). It’s not a particularly enviable task.

Aracer – read what I wrote

It is quite possible that thousands will die from this – its now the worst accident ever apart from Chernobyl and that cost at least 10 000 lives.

If core material escapes into the wider environment which clearly is a possibility and indeed may already be happening then it is quite possible that thousands will die from the radioactivity. Its just a [possibility at this stage

I am not overplaying this – its a possibility as the reactors are not under control and containment is breached.

Yes something like Chernobyl could easily happen with these reactors – the key thing is the release of core material / high level waste into the environment.

Yes nuclear is completely different to any other form of electircity generation due to the highly toxic and long lived nature of the pollutants.

10 000 died because of Chernobyl and many more peoples health was affected. find another generator accident that killed that many people

The situation in Japan is not as bad as that but it has the potential to be so. It has already caused more pollution that the nuclear apologists said was possible. Teh situation is still very unstable.

Yes it is completely impossible to have a sane discussion on this with people who are so blind to the unique and deadly dangers of nukes.

A REUTERS SPECIAL REPORT

TOKYO, Japan – When the massive tsunami smacked into Fukushima Daiichi, the nuclear power plant was stacked high with more uranium than it was originally designed to hold and had repeatedly missed mandatory safety checks over the past decade.

The Fukushima plant that has spun into partial meltdown and spewed out plumes of radiation had become a growing depot for spent fuel in a way the American engineers who designed the reactors 50 years earlier had never envisioned, according to company documents and outside experts.

At the time of the March 11 earthquake, the reactor buildings at Fukushima held the equivalent of almost six years of the highly radioactive uranium fuel rods produced by the plant, according to a presentation by Tokyo Electric Power Co to a conference organized by the International Atomic Energy Agency.

Along with questions about whether Tokyo Electric officials waited too long to pump sea water into the plants and abandon hope of saving them, the utility and regulators are certain to face scrutiny on the fateful decision to store most of the plant’s spent fuel rods inside the reactor buildings rather than invest in other potentially safer storage options.

http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/-depth/03/22/11/fuel-storage-safety-issues-vexed-japan-nuclear-plant

find another generator accident that killed that many people

Banqiao Dam Inital death toll 26,000. Subsequent deaths from famine and disease 146,000.

FWIW – I am not pro nuclear.

ta j_me

I had never heard of that.

right, from now on, i’m strongly against hydro-power.

it’s clearly far too dangerous.

that Dinorwig thing near llanberis will have to go.

When the massive tsunami smacked into Fukushima Daiichi, the nuclear power plant was stacked high with more uranium than it was originally designed to hold and had repeatedly missed mandatory safety checks over the past decade

Gosh if that is actually true and anyone dies, it’s the Jap equivalent of corporate manslaughter. Any equipment is only safe if the operational limits are seen to be observed. Regardless of it being a nuclear plant, that is truly shocking.

Well this is a relief.

Reports from Japan say radioactivity in water at reactor 2 at the damaged Fukushima nuclear plant is 10 million times the usual level.

You really should know better than to trust the official figures, TJ 😆

If core material escapes into the wider environment which clearly is a possibility and indeed may already be happening then it is quite possible that thousands will die from the radioactivity.

An extremely slim possibility combined with an extremely slim possibility. You’ve got more chance of winning the lottery.

Yes something like Chernobyl could easily happen with these reactors

Not according to all the experts it couldn’t. Who should I believe, them or TJ?

10 000 died because of Chernobyl

According to some figures – other more reputable ones put it a lot lower. I’m not really interested in arguing Chernobyl though – this isn’t Chernobyl, and there won’t ever be anything similar at any plant in a Western country.

Yes it is completely impossible to have a sane discussion on this with people who are so blind to the unique and deadly dangers of nukes refuse to compare the dangers of nukes to the dangers of any other form of electricity generation (let alone the dangers of not having sufficient electricity supply)

FTFY

So what are you saying aracer, I haven’t been following this thread much recently……..that nuclear energy is safe ?

No, wait, don’t bother answering that question……….I’ve just seen this report :

Radiation at plant 10 million times above normal

Quote :

“Leaked water in Unit 2 of the Fukushima Daiichi plant measured 10 million times higher than usual radioactivity levels when the reactor is operating normally, Tokyo Electric Power Co. spokesman Takashi Kurita told reporters in Tokyo.”

10 million times higher than usual radioactivity ? 10 **** million times higher ??? Jeeeeezus…………that stuff’s dangerous 😯

I’m guessing that the Tokyo Electric Power Co. spokesman knows what he’s talking about ?

I’m guessing that the Tokyo Electric Power Co. spokesman knows what he’s talking about ?

Unfortunately not – see buzz’s link!

OK I’ve just seen buzz’s link, quote :

“Tokyo Electric Power Company, which has previously been criticised by officials for its handling of the crisis at the plant, said it got the readings wrong.”

So the Tokyo Electric Power Co. spokesman doesn’t know what he’s talking about and the workers at the plant are releasing false readings, that doesn’t exactly inspire confidence does it ? This is highly radioactive material is dangerous stuff FFS.

But anyway, I tried to find what the true level of radiation is and this is what I found :

Japan Radiation Mistake: Spike Inaccurate

Quote :

“The number is not credible,” said Tokyo Electric Power Co. spokesman Takashi Kurita. “We are very sorry.” He said officials were taking another sample to get accurate levels, but did not know when the results would be announced.

But did not know when the results would be announced ? So basically they don’t know what the level is, and they are simply assuming that the first reading is wrong. Again, that doesn’t exactly inspire confidence does it ?

And wait there’s more, quote :

Officials apologized for the error, which they said occurred due to the fact that workers, scared from the extremely high level, fled Unit 2 before taking a second reading.

So the workers were so scared of the high levels of radiation that they legged it and didn’t bother taking a second reading ? Now the workers at a nuclear power station are actually panicking, but you reckon these places are perfectly safe aracer ?

Well I don’t know who to believe anymore, but the suggestion that workers at a nuclear power station are that clueless is really rather worrying.

So the workers were so scared of the high levels of radiation that they legged it and didn’t bother taking a second reading ? Now the workers at a nuclear power station are actually panicking, but you reckon these places are perfectly safe aracer ?

Hmm, well apart from never having said that, workers being worried about incorrect readings suggesting it’s very dangerous isn’t really the same as it actually being very dangerous. Or are you going to base all your risk assessments on presenting falsely alarming data to people and seeing how much they panic?

the suggestion that workers at a nuclear power station are that clueless is really rather worrying

I’m assuming the workers aren’t all nuclear physicists with all the data at their fingertips – or are you suggesting it’s clueless of them to get worried about a reading which on the face of it suggests high levels of danger? Or are you actually suggesting they should all be nuclear physicists?

well apart from never having said that

Gotcha……..you don’t think these places are that safe. My mistake – I thought you did.

are you actually suggesting they should all be nuclear physicists?

Is that not possible ? Bearing in mind that the people at the Fukushima reactors are just a select handful who were sent in to specifically deal with the second most serious crises ever in the history of nuclear power.

And also bearing in mind that it would be useful if they didn’t panic and leg it because they didn’t know what was going on.

Well I guess if there aren’t enough nuclear physicists to go around, then people who just have a vague idea will have to do.

Although perhaps further development of nuclear energy should be halted until there are more nuclear physicists available ?

You get instructions to enter a room but your radiation alarm goes “bzzzz” and there’s a standing order to immediately evacuate from the room. There is no imperative to stop take “just one more reading to avoid an argument on singletrackworld.” The mistake was to permit reporting an unsubstantiated reading.

Look guys, they’re working three irreparably damaged nuclear facilities in a natural disaster zone at some personal risk. Give them a break!

Look guys, they’re working three irreparably damaged nuclear facilities in a natural disaster zone ….

Sounds serious 😐

And the news just gets worse. Plutonium is found, highly radioactive water is leaking from one of the reactors, contamination is spreading

Plutonium is found, highly radioactive water is leaking from one of the reactors, contamination is spreading

I have to say that I a bit dissappointed with the hyperbole that you seem intent on using, as I’d have thought that someone with medical training such as yourself would have realised that the phrase “the dose makes the poison” might be applicable here. How much Plutonium was found? How much higher above background does this raise radiation levels? What risk does it represent?

As for your statement that “it just gets worse” well if you cherry pick your news then yes it does get worse. Did you post that the recent reading of reading 1,000,000 above normal were erroneous? Not that I can see. As for the possiblily of another Chernobyl, well I’d never say that the risk was zero (there being no such thing as zero risk in anything), but now that electricity has been restored to the plant and cooling water is being pumped through the reactor (another item you chose not to post about) I’d put it down to very very unlikely.

Now I realise that there is a possibility that on reading that that you will consider me to be rabidly pro nuclear and that I think that everything is under control at the plant. I don’t. It is clearly, and always has been, a very serious situation however the hyperbole that you post on this subject is frankly unhelpful and not condusive to rational debate.

For those interested in some proper discussion of this subject I found the Ars Technica forum thread to be very good and apparently well informed (at least to my limited degree-level physics level of understanding). If anyone’s thinking of contributing there the Chicken Little’s get short shrift – you need to back your opinions with thought! Ars Technica also has some good general articles on what’s going on.

I have to say that I a bit dissappointed with the hyperbole that you seem intent on using

You’ve been TJed.

This morning I was comparing Deepwater Horizon with Fukushima:

Deepwater: Man-made accident, 11 dead, 205.8 million gallons of crude oil released into the envionment, 287 miles of coastline heavily contaminated

Fukushima: Natural cause, 0 dead, small increase in cancer risk to some workers, a few grammes of spent fuel released to the environment, possible 10km2 affected my slight radioactive contamination

Puts the oil and nuclear energy industries in perspective, no?

I am going to go through and read all of this but first I need to go and take a shit to clear out some room.

We’re all doomed!!

On the bright side i’m less likely to get breast cancer now.

And the nuclear apologists continue. Gonfishin – plutonium has no real safe level 🙄

Its still not under control and getting worse. Thats one of the cores melted down completely.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/29/japan-lost-race-save-nuclear-reactor

gonefishin – Member
but now that electricity has been restored to the plant and cooling water is being pumped through the reactor (another item you chose not to post about) I’d put it down to very very unlikely.

~apart from that is not what is happening. the pumps are ruined and the cores are molten. They wil do very well to prevent a major release of core material let alone all the radioactive cooling water.

And the news continues to get worse

An exclusion zone with a radius of 20km (12 miles) is currently in place but the UN says safe radiation limits have been exceeded 40km away

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-12916688

Well an American expert reckons part of a core has melted down to the floor and through the bottom of the pressure vessel where it is flowing slowly like lava into the concrete drywell – currently flooded. And that this explains where these releases are coming from.

That makes the outcome worse than TMI.