Been done? Cycle craft author says road cycling ‘very safe’?

I think I agree with him that the danger of cycling on the road is a bit over exaggerated, and in the sense that I think more cyclists on the roads = slightly safer for everyone, and that it doesn't help to be putting people off riding.

But definitely agree with you that's it's way down the list of answers I'd give. Charitably, there's not a lot of space for his answer and I guess the first part of his answer he's wearing his cyclecraft cap and advocating for more training.

Yes.

He has a very good point. Too many folk are put off by an exaggeration of the dangers (often on social media). The more cyclists there are, the more "usual" it will be for motorists to see cyclists on the road and the better the infrastructire provision will become. The Field of Dreams approach (build it and they will come) has been only partially successful as it sends a message that shared infrastucture isn't for cyclists.

I totally agree with the OP

Tbh, I’m pretty amazed that he said that. Am I being over sensitive?

CUK are (or certainly were, for a very long time) really quite anti anything to do with cycle lanes, cycle infrastructure etc and had as their gospel the truly terrible Richard Ballantine Cyclist Book which advocated such gems as rolling "gently" over the bonnet of a car before getting to your feet and administering a sound thrashing to the errant motorist with your trusty bike pump.

It's a bit like asking why the zookeeper insists on all the lions being locked away before going in to clean the enclosure and suggesting that if they just had a bit more self-confidence, they'd be fine.

It's a shitty attitude and one that is responsible for a significant failing in ever increasing the number of people cycling.

It's a quick fire format interview, and he was asked to pick one thing, so I wouldn't read too much into it. I'm sure he would have more to say on the subject if he was interviewed at length.

I think one of the things that would improve matters most would be to get more cyclists on the road (and I'm including cycling infrastructure when I say "road"). If more people were cycling, it would reduce the "othering" of cyclists and make them an expected part of the transport system that motorists would be more likely to look out for. One of the things that deters many people from using a bike for transport is a lack of confidence and a perception that it really is a dangerous thing to do, so Franklin has a point.

I understand the sentiment but probably badly worded, and I'm cynical that he's plugging his book/course.

Confidence/assertiveness link to positioning on the road, and I found doing Bikeability a few years back that my positioning wasn't as good as I thought it was. Getting that right and being more proactive on the road led to fewer close passes.

And I think because we are aware of how vulnerable we are on the road, we overestimate the actual danger to us at an individual level. I know two people who've been killed while riding in 40 years. I know more who've died unexpectedly young from other causes.

Cycling is relatively safe. I have no more concerns about my kids cycling on the road than I do of them driving now they've passed their tests.

There's an excellent 2-part episode of the War on Cars podcast that dismantles those assertions by looking at the 'vehicular cycling' movement:

https://thewaroncars.org/2024/07/09/131-vehicular-cycling-and-john-forester-part-1/

The notion that we can increase rates of cycling with a bit of stuff upper lip is absurd and almost always espoused by people with a high regard for their own prowess on the road. There's a very 'if everyone was just as good at this as me we'd be fine' vibe going on that helps nobody.

Sounds like a complete fanny.

As Stevious says, plus a bit of wondering where he's cycling compared to other folk.

It’s a quick fire format interview, and he was asked to pick one thing, so I wouldn’t read too much into it.

that, plus not uncommon in those sort of situations to be asked one question but the author/editor to actually put a slightly different question in the piece when it’s compiled.

From my own experience

15 years commuting through towns and country lanes on a bicycle, 8 years racing supersport 600 and 2 years (so far) racing and play days on a 300cc enduro bike. Commuting (especially in winter) is most likely what's going to get me, and most likely at a roundabout.

I do think one of the most important things that could be done to improve safety is to increase the number of people riding bikes on the road.  I live in a country that has very good cycling infrastructure and it really shows when you find yourself in a space that you have to share with cars.  Drivers who are not used to sharing space with bikes all the time have no clue what the **** they are doing.  The only reason more people aren't killed is because they keep the speed limits very low (Norway, if you're wondering).

I kind of see his point but at the same time, no, I don't think he is right.

I still think the best thing to do is to discourage everyone from driving as much as possible.  Partially by enforcing the rules of the road more strictly for drivers (although how you do that with no police I don't know) but also make it expensive to run a car, improve public transport, limit where cars are allowed to drive, reduce speed limits, etc. All the greatest hits.

As is always the case there is no single best thing to do as it takes a thousand tweaks instead, but finding some way to increase people's confidence to ride their bikes (and perhaps dialing down the rhetoric that every time we set out on the road we almost die) might not be a bad thing.

Too many folk are put off by an exaggeration of the dangers (often on social media).

There's a section of the Twitter/X/Threads cycling world who daily post the sorts of interactions with other road users that I have maybe once every other year, they're obviously looking for clicks and likes, but holy hell, challenge them at all about why it keeps on happening to them is opening yourself to a world of abuse - I gave up on twitter because of the behavior of a supporter of a channel for this. There's definitely an element on social media who continually post that every bit of cycling infrastructure is 'wrong' where every mile is potential death trap, and every interaction with a driver is a chance for effing and jeffing,  How do they get anywhere?

Those folks are not really helping.

It’s a quick fire format interview, and he was asked to pick one thing, so I wouldn’t read too much into it. I’m sure he would have more to say on the subject if he was interviewed at length.

He wouldn't. John Franklin is the vehicular cyclist. He thinks the only things kids riding to school or Mrs Miggins riding church on a Sunday morning need to be safe is the ability to ride at 30mph and the willingness to take the lane.

That approach kind of works for a fit, assertive-bordering-on-aggresive 'cyclist' but you're never going to get normal people choosing to travel by bike in any great numbers. Look at any place in the world with high, or rapidly rising, cycling modal share. Has a single one of them done it by making the cyclists faster and more aggressive?

JF thinks that the scene above is bad and it would be better if everyone on a bike was on a main road dodging buses and lorries.

On my commute, most often the risky passes are the ones that save the driver the least amount of time, so I think more needs to be done regarding acceptance of having to slow down, as well as viewing cyclists not just as an obstacle to get around ASAP (at any cost in some cases), but this extends to slow drivers, slow vehicles etc.

I kind of get what he says, but it doesn't necessarily help me feel any safer. A few months ago every commute I thought about my untimely death, thankfully past that for now!

As Stevious says, plus a bit of wondering where he’s cycling compared to other folk.

It's rather telling that in the interview (if you zoom in on the pic in the OP), he says his favourite places to ride are "wild and remote, like Scotland".

The whole "vehicular cycling" thing is a load of bollocks; it's actually quite dismissive, a strong "well I'm alright Jack" attitude about it and very disappointingly it's one that many at CUK advocated for a long time based I think on the fear that if you built cycle lanes, cyclists would be "forced" to use them and they'd lose their right to ride on the road.

Sadly there's often one of these "vehicular cycling" believers in many council highways departments. The likes of John Forester, John Franklin and Richard Ballantine have put back cycling, as a viable means of travel for the masses, by decades in the UK and USA in particular.

John Franklin is the vehicular cyclist.

He also hasn't commuted to work for at least 2 decades.

Statistically he's right, isn't he? But I do agree that we're not going to suddenly convert the masses to cycling through acquiring a stiff upper lip. I think it's true that the nations and cities with high levels of cycling have good infrastructure.

 He thinks the only things kids riding to school or Mrs Miggins riding church on a Sunday morning need to be safe is the ability to ride at 30mph and the willingness to take the lane.

Is he still advocating that speed, and the ability to accelerate and maintain 20mph is a basic skill? I remember reading Cyclecraft years ago and laughing out loud at sections that told me that basically I could get out of any potential crash merely by training myself to cycle fast.

I admit that I’m a bad person to comment, because I don’t commute on a bike. My thought is that cyclists experience will change dramatically depending on the roads they use, or the place where they live.

Personally, I live in a town/city (Belfast). Riding on the roads here scares me too much to attempt it! And I’m a self confident kind of guy and a competent cyclist. But roads terrify me. And not because of me!

One last thought; I work in France and drive there about 1-2 weeks a month. There are huge numbers of cyclists there in the city where I work. Many, many more than here in Belfast. But French cyclists often don’t look particularly safe to me either. The biggest factor I can think of is visibility. (Sorry - the biggest factor is careless driving - but bear with me). I don’t think there is such a thing as being lit up too brightly.

It’s a quick fire format interview, and he was asked to pick one thing, so I wouldn’t read too much into it. I’m sure he would have more to say on the subject if he was interviewed at length.

Maybe one for a cycling mag to pick up on for a longer chat? @chipps @stwhannah

One last thought; I work in France and drive there about 1-2 weeks a month. There are huge numbers of cyclists there in the city where I work

Paris in particular has had huge increases in the numbers of people cycling recently and none of it has been because the French have suddenly acquired a load of self-confidence; it's because the Mayor has enacted a lot of fast-moving work to make it that way by banning / restricting cars, building more cycle routes and generally making it a lot easier to get around by bike.

No-one is forced into doing 30mph around Place de la Concorde like the Tour de France, no-one needs to wear lycra or hi-vis or be on a £4000 carbon roadbike. It's effectively just a bunch of upwardly mobile pedestrians.

Commuting to work in rush hour is a different kettle of fish to going out on the road at weekend, or say, after rush hour. Rush hour, it's winner takes all - no-one gives a shoot about cyclists.  Got too many injuries from it, more than MTB and other road cycling put together by multiples !

I know two people who’ve been killed while riding in 40 years. I know more who’ve died unexpectedly young from other causes.

Ok, to make that statistic meaningful, can you clarify:

* The number of regular cyclists you know

* The number of people you know.

Commuting to work in rush hour is a different kettle of fish to going out on the road at weekend, or say, after rush hour. Rush hour, it’s winner takes all – no-one gives a shoot about cyclists. Got too many injuries from it, more than MTB and other road cycling put together by multiples !

Definitely, although I have found the driving standard has gotten worse any day of the week since before covid.

I think the additional benefit to more people cycling on the road could be that more drivers also cycle and are therefore familiar with the vulnerability of cyclists, how they should drive around them and most importantly the need to be looking out for them and not just other cars.

How many times to we hear 'sorry mate, didn't see you'. What they actually mean is I didn't see you because I wasn't looking for you, I was just looking for cars.

As a cyclist who also drives, when I'm in the car I'm much more aware of how cyclists use the roads and therefore where they may be and where to look, particularly when it's busy with traffic and cyclists may filtering etc.

Of course drivers all should be looking out for cyclists, however I think as a cyclist you're definitely better aware of how they use the roads when you're behind the wheel.

I've had one collision with a vehicle in 53,000 miles, and I have fallen off (due to my own incompetence) about half a dozen times. Zero serious injuries in that time. Road cycling is a hell of a lot safer than mountain biking!

Is road cycling statistically safer? I don't know the numbers or indeed know by what metric you'd assess this safety. What I do know is that when a lot of folk risk assess riding on the road they're focusing heavily on the severity of the outcomes rather than the likelihood and this is a reasonable thing to do in this case. All of the 'being more confident' stuff might well help reduce the likelihood of a collision but your polystyrene hat and flashing lights don't do much in the equation of you vs car. Those of us who balance that against the risk with the rewards of cycling are very much in the minority and that is a big problem if the goal is to get more people riding bikes.

Or, to put it another way, I don't want to have to face my own mortality or prepare for battle I just want to take my kids to school and go to the shops and stuff.

I think its one of those "he's not wrong but not right either" things

Its a combination of likelihood -v- severity. Actually having an accident - relatively low; but being bounced off a tonne of tin can isn't going to go well when it does happen. There there's roadcraft - I learnt to drive before I could ride, so have always ridden the same way I drive in terms of lane positioning etc, and I'm a bolshie bastard so if I decide I'm having that bit of road, I will take it and **** you. One of the most educational things I did was start commuting on a fixie. The inability to "just stop" meant that I HAD to learn to read traffic flow much better and spot incipient wuckfittery earlier, then to flow around it. It also means my top speed is limited (anecdotally I have more self-induced close shaves on a proper roadie as I can push that much harder)

Commuting to work in rush hour is a different kettle of fish to going out on the road at weekend, or say, after rush hour.

I actually feel safer commuting in rush hour as the cars are limited in speed and manouverability by all the other cars. I'm generally the fastest moving object and can have been and gone before anyone has realised I'm there. If the road is clear, then I'll be the slow moving "obstacle" and will get passed at a much higher speed differential.

What they actually mean is I didn’t see you because I wasn’t looking for you, I was just looking for cars.

This...

But also, people, generally are just "unaware". Pedestrians, riders, drivers - so few people seem to realise their heads are attached to a very mobile joint and bother to look at, know and understand what's going on to either side, behind, hell even above and below them.

Personally I'm also not a great fan cycling infrastructure segregated from the road. For me, commuting is wasted time - get it done as fast as possible. Riding for sport is, well, sport, so you're going as hard as you can. Shared pavements are useless - I'd much rather interact with (relatively) rational and predictable cars than peds, kids, dogs all of whom have the predictability of a coked up squirrel; I find much of the dedicated "bike only" infrastructure like London has difficult to get onto if you don't know its there, difficult to get out of; too narrow to overtake if you get stuck behind a bimbler and the traffic light sequences seem to leave you sitting there for aaaages.  (that gif @bails posted is my idea of hell). We have a right to use the road, we should take that and normalise it and drivers need to learn (by force if necessary) to work with and around us (and the more drivers who bike the better it will be) - but as part of that we also need to obey the rules of the road as much as drivers do - and that requires enforcement for all. (I'd say cars jumping red lights is getting almost as endemic as bikes now.)

It certainly "feels" dangerous, and that's enough to put a LOT of people off cycling and I don't think that will ever be fixed by better training for cyclists ordinary people who would like to cycle to work and stuff.

What I do know is that when a lot of folk risk assess riding on the road they’re focusing heavily on the severity of the outcomes rather than the likelihood and this is a reasonable thing to do in this case.

Very much this ^^ and it's where all the "encourage people to ride bikes" and "tell people to walk more often" falls down because people look at the road, the (poor quality) pavement etc and say (not unreasonably) that it looks too dangerous. You can "encourage" all you want but until you actually ENABLE people to cycle (by building safe / segregated infrastructure , having safe convenient places to lock your bike, restricting car usage and so on), people won't do it.

The single thing that would improve the safety of road cycling is an improvement in the state of the roads. It's not drivers that are causing KSI's in the main, it's potholes. With better road conditions, a cyclist can be more attentive to the traffic and less to what crater they will have to dodge next. Everyone remembers the one **** that gives a close pass, but forgets the hundreds of reasonable drivers who respect road users.

23 mile commute into central London twice a week, Not particularly eventful to be honest. Treat taxi drivers properly and I've found them decent. But the roads are terrible.

He sounds like a tool, but anyway the risk of actually being hit and injured or killed is pretty low. Far more concerning is the verbal and physical abuse targeted at cyclists in urban areas. I’ve been shouted at, sworn at, called everything under the sun, threatened with violence and had all sorts solid and liquid thrown at me over the last couple of decades. Riding like the bloke from the story suggests just results in worse reactions from drivers unfortunately, staying out their way rightly or wrongly seems to attract less negative responses as much as I hate it.

a cyclist can be more attentive to the traffic

Did you really mean that the roads aren't safe cos we have to look where we going?? Maybe we don't wear enough hiviz too?

Did you really mean that the roads aren’t safe cos we have to look where we going?? Maybe we don’t wear enough hiviz too?

No, brain can only process information so fast. If half of that processing power is looking down at the road... My club mate died hitting a pothole that should not have been there. You've never swerved to avoid a potential puncture/rim breaking dip in the road you failed to notice?

Yeah, but during my daily commute I see far more vehicles than I do potholes. I think the vehicles have far more potential to do me harm (and not cos I'm staring at the road and don't see them!)

I think the additional benefit to more people cycling on the road could be that more drivers also cycle and are therefore familiar with the vulnerability of cyclists, how they should drive around them and most importantly the need to be looking out for them and not just other cars

Anecdotally, some of the worst driving I experience locally (rural Scotland) is from Dutch tourists. I think many of them simply aren't expecting cyclists to be sharing the roads with them.

Anecdotally, some of the worst driving I experience locally (rural Scotland) is from Dutch tourists. I think many of them simply aren’t expecting cyclists to be sharing the roads with them.

I can absolutely believe that.  I mentioned it further up but where I am in Norway the cycling infrastructure is pretty good and generally separated.

However, if you find yourself on a road that has to be shared with cars then the drivers are absolutely clueless and potentially lethal.  If the speed limits weren't so low it would be carnage.

Road cycling is a hell of a lot safer than mountain biking!

This really isn't how I perceive it. On MTB the main contributing factor to crashing is my own lack of judgement and the only things I can hit are stood still. None of the trees or rocks are being moved by someone staring at an iPhone, distracted by screaming kids or late for work because they stopped for coffee. The biggest fright I've had was after being tipped into the road off a Fiesta's bonnet into the path of a box van. Off-road these things tend to come in 1's.

It’s not drivers that are causing KSI’s in the main, it’s potholes.

"almost half (46%) of pedal cycle fatalities were in 2 vehicle collisions between a pedal cycle and a car"

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-pedal-cyclist-factsheet-2021/reported-road-casualties-in-great-britain-pedal-cycle-factsheet-2021

So almost half of fatalities involve a car (where responsibility for the incident could of course be attributed to either or both parties). I think it is unlikely the other 54% is all due to potholes.

Anecdotally, some of the worst driving I experience locally (rural Scotland) is from Dutch tourists. I think many of them simply aren’t expecting cyclists to be sharing the roads with them.

That surprises me. About a quarter of the NL road network has segregated cycling facilities, so the Dutch are used to sharing roads with cyclists, and anecdotally, my experience is that drivers on the unsegregated roads drive sensibly and pass with care.

That surprises me. About a quarter of the NL road network has segregated cycling facilities, so the Dutch are used to sharing roads with cyclists, and anecdotally, my experience is that drivers on the unsegregated roads drive sensibly and pass with care.

I've ridden a reasonable amount in Belgium and there's a similar sort of dynamic there. Drivers are fine with you being on the road, they see cyclists regularly, they know to treat cyclists well (partly because it is such an iconic cultural part of Belgium, partly just because in any collision the driver is automatically held liable).

BUT - they also expect cyclists to behave a certain way. Neat line of 2-abreast. Hand signals. Obeying the traffic laws. Where stuff like that doesn't happen, they find it difficult to adjust and to cope.

My experience last week following a car down a hill (the car was going slower than I was so I was a few metres back maintaining my distance).

Presumably the thought process of the person in the car behind me was this.

- I am in a car

- Bikes hold up cars because they go slower

- I will overtake

- I am now next to the bike and there is no more space to go forward

- I will move back to the correct side of the road

- That cyclists seems unhappy with me. It's very strange.

Here in Norway this kind of braindead action is a daily occurrence as soon as you leave the segregated infrastructure.  At least in the UK when someone is risking my life it's because they have the chance to save themselves a whole third of a second.  In Norway it seems to be purely down to the fact that a bike is in the 'wrong' place and they don't know what to do so they panic and do something really stupid.

@BruceWee nah, that happens all the time in the UK too. I've had cars halfway through overtaking me slow right down to flash a car out of a T junction in front of both of us.

Having ridden in both places, I would say the level of bunny in the headlights panic you get from drivers encountering a bike on 'their' road is worse than in the UK.

It could also simply be that Norwegians are generally very bad drivers.  It's a testament to just how much safer having quieter roads and very low speed limits makes everything.

Saying that though, they are very good at driving in the snow.

Ok, to make that statistic meaningful, can you clarify:

* The number of regular cyclists you know

* The number of people you know.

Fair point. I've known - directly or indirectly - hundreds of regular cyclists since first getting interested in bikes 40 years ago. In that time I've known hundreds of other folk through work and other hobbies and interests, and wider family contacts.

Not sure that helps or hinders my point, tbh.

Agree with the OP - whilst we would all love more people to be riding bikes, just telling people to 'be more confident' isn't going to cut it

that attitude doesn't take into account the ever increasing size of vehicles (both dimension and mass), the power outputs, and the increase of numbers of people driving, plus delivery boom, including parked cars because the average numbers of cars per household has gone up over the last 20/30 years - as well as the potholes, the attitudes of the public and the messaging

I do agree that the majority of drivers are decent but when collisions do happen the person on the bike is the one who suffers 99.9999% of the time. We need dedicated infrastructure and restriction on car speeds and sizes at the same time but i'm not holding my breath

 I know two people who’ve been killed while riding in 40 years.

It's 40 years for me too.

I've had at least half a dozen personal friends, who i spoke to/had phone numbers/addresses for who have been killed by cars. Another couple killed by making mistakes on the road. Then maybe three times that acquaintances/friends or friends/people I've raced with/against. And many times that of people who've had serious injuries from impacts with vehicles.

Saying that though, probably all the way through my teens and 20's almost my entire social circle was made up of cyclists and ex cyclists, i went to their weddings, went to their birthdays, i even dated cyclists (eventually even married one). Even now, in my 50's probably 40% of my friend group are still cyclists/ex-cyclists or involved with cycling.

Hell, there are probably a couple of dozen posters on here who know me IRL or have raced/ridden with me.

came here to mention the War on Cars podcast but I see @stevious has beaten me too it

https://thewaroncars.org/2024/07/09/131-vehicular-cycling-and-john-forester-part-1/

mert - to provide some balance, of all the people who's funerals I've been to - none have ever been killed in a cycling accident.  Of all the people I know who have ended up in hospital from cycling accidents the vast majority (>80% at least) have been through their own error (or at least an issue with the road surface) rather than a collision with a driver.

It must depend where you ride.  I  can count on both hands the number of near misses I have had.  Ever. Apart from minor grazes I have never had an injury accident. I commuted by bike for a couple of decades in and around Glasgow. I have crossed the USA three times as well as a number of shorter tours.

Around Glasgow it's a mix of busy arterial roads where that is the most direct route though I avoid busy roads where there is a quiet alternate road of similar length. I use a mirror so I always know what is behind me as well as what is in front.

Most accidents are avoidable. I have once ridden of the road because my mirror told me an overtaking vehicle was going to hit me.  There are few local roads I have never used because they are dangerous. Both in my opinion and objectively - one had two fatals in a few months within a mile stretch.

Nationally,  road cycling is getting safer. Between 2004 and 2022 the number of fatalities per billion miles reduced from 52 -23.

With an average risk I would need to ride 43 million miles before I was killed. Seems pretty safe to me.  Before you start counting the health benefits of cycling.I would like to think after 50 years riding I am better than average.

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/reported-road-casualties-great-britain-pedal-cyclist-factsheet-2022/reported-road-casualties-in-great-britain-pedal-cycle-factsheet-2022

Nationally,  road cycling is getting safer. Between 2004 and 2022 the number of fatalities per billion miles reduced from 52 -23.

Not disagreeing with you at all but the problem is that it doesn't LOOK safe - certainly not to a new cyclist or someone wanting to ride to school. Facts don't sway people, they go on feelings and emotions and opinions. And going back to the original article, telling them that it's statistically safe or that they just need to believe a bit more isn't going to achieve anything.

I'd be curious to know how much the decrease in fatalities is simply due to fewer drivers dying because cars are far safer now than they have ever been. Crash a 1980's car, they'd be unwrapping bits of you and your passengers from the engine block. Crash a modern car, people often get out unscathed.