What????? for the greater good if he is guilty – and I am sure he is – then the truth needs to out.

to say its the greater good to allow a cheat to get away with it?

One of the biggest obstacles to dealing with drugs in cycling is not the riders, but the attitude of the fans. It’s very difficult to see cycling really cleaning itself up when people are still prepared to overlook alleged cheating and “move on” because it’s “just entertainment” or “everyone’s at it”.

I’m sorry, but this is puerile nonsense.

‘Bad for cycling?
How about being bad for cyclists that the most influential cyclist in the world was as bad a drug cheat as the rest?

You can ‘choose’ to believe what ever you want, but as the evidence stacks up you will end up with your eyes shut and your fingers in your ears.

Lance is a massive inspiration – he is one of the best and most successful athletes the world has ever seen, up there with Ali, Usain, Federer (or Nadal), Peat, Jordan, Merckx, Phelps, Woods, and so on.

When you think of pro cycling, you think of Lance. What he did was amazing, and he dominates the history of modern pro cycling.

If you want the history of modern pro cycling to be dominated by cheating, then charging him with drug abuse is a good way of doing that.

If you want to drag up old stuff, which will just give people the view that cyclist are all druggies again, then charge Lance.

Let’s pretend he’s innocent for a second – now what happens?

Well cycling had an epic hero who battled cancer then stormed to 7 TdF wins in a row, all whilst clean. Cycling, people with cancer, and just people in general, have this awe inspiring figure to look up to. Not only did he do this, but he raised cancer awareness massively, and is staying active, in mountain biking first, and now he’s gone back to triathlons.

If he’s guilty, but not charged?

Well cycling had an epic hero who battled cancer then stormed to 7 TdF wins in a row, all whilst clean. Cycling, people with cancer, and just people in general, have this awe inspiring figure to look up to. Not only did he do this, but he raised cancer awareness massively, and is staying active, in mountain biking first, and now he’s gone back to triathlons.

Also, some guy gets away with cheating.

If he’s guilty, and charged?

Well cycling had another 7 years of cheating added to it’s history. Cycling, people with cancer, and just people in general, are suddenly lost when their hero is suddenly tarnished as a cheat and a fraud. Not only did he do this, but he keeps cheating, in mountain biking first, and now he’s gone back to triathlons.

Also, some guy on some internet forum gets to say I told you so.

You can have justice, and destroy cycling. Or you can let it go, and do the good thing. Yeah, one guy who may possibly be guilty may go free. And that’s not great. But it’s better then the alternative. What we should be doing is looking to make sure that we don’t have cheaters right now, and in the future. Let’s leave the past behind.

If you go blindly searching for “justice”, just be aware of what you might find. Careful what you wish for and all that.

Also, he could be innocent. Remember, you gotta dance like Lance man, spinners are winners.

I struggle with long sentences

if I, as an amateur cyclist, wanted to take performance enhancing drugs, could I?
if so, what could I take, ignoring the risk of heart attacks, death, etc.

Ignoring the risks?

Stimulants like cocaine and amphetamines will increase your speed / power on the day – at a cost when you come down and at great risk to your cardivascular system

Opiates will increase your tolerance to pain and the amphet will stop you getting too relaxed

Steriods make it easier to increase lean muscle mass and to train harder.

No point in grandstanding – either have the stuff to nail him good and proper or shut up

I’m glad you clarified that TJ as frankly I found your previous posts a bit disappointing from someone who tends to at least give the benefit of the doubt.
‘Not Proven’? That isn’t a potential outcome outside Scotland (AFAIK), and I don’t think even if it were it’s a good enough result .. the debate will plough on regardless of any outcome anyway.

RealMan: nail/head. Brilliantly said.

You can have justice, and destroy cycling

complete rubbish. 🙄
LA convicted of cheating will upset a few yanks. most of europe will have a chuckle (particularly the french but not the spaniards) and cycling will move on and cleaner peloton will work it’s way round the roads of europe in what should be a great summer of road cycling.

i didn’t see football “destroyed” in italy after the match fixing neither did cricket implode after the cronje or pakistan match fixing.

RealMan – really? What a load of toss…

Presumably you also think that the Leveson Inquiry is also “in the past” so just leave it…?

Don’t bother investigating people like Wade, Coulson, Murdochs. it doesn’t matter that they (allegedly) committed criminal activity then (allegedly) conspired to cover it up? All a waste of money?

Are you saying that because someone is high profile that they are exempt from normal legal process – or just because they are a sports “star” that you happen to like???

RM, with your history, I’m not surprised you’re justifying potential cheating.

Are you saying that because someone is high profile that they are exempt from normal legal process – or just because they are a sports “star” that you happen to like???

I thought he was saying that reality can be quite complex, but I could be mistaken.

Presumably you also think that the Leveson Inquiry is also “in the past” so just leave it…?

Don’t bother investigating people like Wade, Coulson, Murdochs. it doesn’t matter that they (allegedly) committed criminal activity then (allegedly) conspired to cover it up? All a waste of money?

I don’t know what any of that stuff is, so can’t really comment.

Are you saying that because someone is high profile that they are exempt from normal legal process – or just because they are a sports “star” that you happen to like???

No, I’m just saying that he is a figure head of cycling, whether you like it or not. Finding him guilty is something that cannot be undone, so you best be sure it’s the right thing to do before doing it.

i didn’t see football “destroyed” in italy after the match fixing neither did cricket implode after the cronje or pakistan match fixing.

I don’t really know what any of that is either, but it sounds like a completely different affair.

Imagine you knew, with 100% certainty, that he was innocent – how wonderful would that be?

How awesome would that make this video?

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F94TCxLYZew[/video]

I rode Alpe-d’Huez the other day. I was thinking of Lance at the top. I whacked it in the big ring like he did, and smashed it to pieces. He helped me there. My belief in him helped me.

It’s a belief I choose. Yes, I may be blinkered, but ignorance can be bliss. If I knew with 100% certainty that he cheated, I could accept that. But I would be deeply saddened by it.

I thought he was saying that reality can be quite complex, but I could be mistaken.

Thanks 🙂

but he raised cancer awareness massively

Yeah, I never knew about cancer before Lance Armstrong. In what way does ‘raising cancer awareness’ actually help anyone exactly?

What we should be doing is looking to make sure that we don’t have cheaters right now, and in the future. Let’s leave the past behind.

And the best way of doing that would be to show that no matter how successful/powerful you are, you won’t get away with cheating. It seems like you think the most important thing in this whole affair is for you to be able to maintain your hero worship fantasies.

Realman, Lance has feet of clay, as so many other great heros do, and it hurts when you find this out.

When you think of pro cycling, you think of Lance. What he did was amazing, and he dominates the history of modern pro cycling.

No.
When younger people think of pro cycling, they think of Lance. Largely due to his Tour victories and the ease with which they convert into once a year column inches. Some of us, who you see fit to slag off as bitter old men can see where and how he fits in, and how much of his success is attributable to performance enhancing drugs.

If you want the history of modern pro cycling to be dominated by cheating, then charging him with drug abuse is a good way of doing that.

It’s already dominated by cheating! Do you live in a cave? Go here and look at all the names;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling

Well cycling had another 7 years of cheating added to it’s history. Cycling, people with cancer, and just people in general, are suddenly lost when their hero is suddenly tarnished as a cheat and a fraud. Not only did he do this, but he keeps cheating, in mountain biking first, and now he’s gone back to triathlons.

Yes, actually. Do you want us to pretend everything is ok? Do you want your son to be a good cyclist then find out when he gets to turn pro that the option is dope or go home?

Let’s leave the past behind.

But he’s the most influential ‘epic hero’ of modern times; should we pretend?

Johan Bruyneel is the DS of one of the biggest teams racing; should we pretend?

Hein Verbruggen and Pat McQuaid run cycling from the very top; should we pretend?

Remember, you gotta dance like Lance man, spinners are winners.

As are those who seem to have taken EPO, Blood transfusions, HGH, Testosterone, Corticosteroids and so on.

Ignoring it will not make it go away, or make it all better, and if you think it will, you’re part of the problem.

Go and do some research;
Kimmage
Betsy Andreu
Emma O’Reilly
Michael Ashenden
Christophe Bassons
Fillipo Simeoni
Floyd Landis
Tyler Hamilton
George Hincapie

Read ‘Bad Blood’ by Jeremy Whittle
Read LA Confidentiel

Educate yourself about the sport you love, it’s tough when you realise it’s not all as it seems, but it is part of following cycling.

I thought he was saying that reality can be quite complex, but I could be mistaken

Complex, yes. But overall, don’t bother, it’s in the past, why tear it all down ???

There are plenty of other areas of criminality where enquiries remain open long after the alleged events.

You do know about Father Christmas?

No.
When younger people think of pro cycling, they think of Lance. Largely due to his Tour victories and the ease with which they convert into once a year column inches. Some of us, who you see fit to slag off as bitter old men can see where and how he fits in, and how much of his success is attributable to performance enhancing drugs.

I don’t think I’ve slagged anyone off here, but sorry if it seemed that way.

Although have you not realised that the younger people are the future of cycling – not the old men? Do we want a bunch of old men to be proved right, and the younger people to see cycling as a drug affair, where everyone cheats?

Do you want us to pretend everything is ok? Do you want your son to be a good cyclist then find out when he gets to turn pro that the option is dope or go home?

Yes, I do want to pretend. It’s the better thing to do. And I’ve already said that we should be looking at the present and the future, so unless my son is considering competing in the past, I’m not sure what you’re getting at.

As are those who seem to have taken EPO, Blood transfusions, HGH, Testosterone, Corticosteroids and so on.

Sorry, but I love this – are you saying people who spin a higher gear take drugs? LOL.

You’re telling me to do research – why? I’m happy with my belief – why would I want to change it? If someone told you they were religious, would you tell them to study quantum mechanics?

I’m happy with my belief – why would I want to change it?

Oh dear, the religious parallels are clear

If someone told you they were religious, would you tell them to study quantum mechanics?

No, I wouldn’t waste the breath

Really, “belief” is for fairy stories, isn’t it?

Realman is making absolutely no sense here whatsoever.

“Yes, I do want to pretend. It’s the better thing to do.” So burying your head in the sand and ignoring it is the best thing to do, rather than looking for the truth?

“we should be looking at the present and the future” Bruyneel is a present (and future) Directeur Sportif. If he’s guilty of these charges then it’s likely he’s still doing the same things, but with a future crop of riders. The sport will never improve unless we get rid of the old guard.

All people are saying is look at the facts rather than bury your head in the ground. If once you’ve looked at the various testimonies and evidence, then you still feel the same way then so be it.

But to state “You’re telling me to do research – why? I’m happy with my belief – why would I want to change it?” you’re sounding like a kid sticking his fingers in his ears refusing to hear stuff he doesn’t like.

For RealMan

Lance Armstrong:

😉

It’s a logical decision. It makes me happy. I guess I’m more of an optimist then others.

Besides, innocent until proven guilty. At the moment he is, technically, innocent. So it’s technically a fact, I think.

Until he’s proven guilty, I’m going to enjoy having him as a hero of cycling and life. I’m sorry if that doesn’t fit in with your cynicism. Spin it to win it.

realman: have you refunded jimmy yet? you are talking crap! For the reasons espoused above. LA is not bigger than cycling.

So burying your head in the sand and ignoring it is the best thing to do, rather than looking for the truth?

If the truth hurts more then it helps, maybe, yeah.

And if a 2 year federal investigation couldn’t find your version of the truth, I don’t think I’m going to either.

RealMan – when I think of the Tour I think of drug cheats – they need to clean up the sport.

When I think of Father Christmas I think of my parents lying to me so I was blissfully ignorant of the truth everyone else was aware of.
Its so rationally obvious it makes me feel daft for believing it in the first place no I look back.

A 2 year investigation was dropped due to lack of evidence of fraud. They weren’t interested in doping, only the money side of it – they were looking to prove Armstrong had defrauded the US Government. By all accounts they had a very strong case, but it was dropped to one man’s decision, against the investigating team’s wishes, just hours before Armstrong was set to be served.

Regarding the federal investigation. That was specifically looking into whether federal (tax payers) money (i.e. US Postal money) was being used to buy and trade drugs. Whether didn’t find proof of it, or they were told to stop by a higher authority (which there are many hints of) is open to debate.

Either way, it wasn’t specifically about whether he doped or not. That’s why they’ve passed on all the evidence to USADA.

(edit: I see I was beaten to it)

RealMan – when I think of the Tour I think of drug cheats – they need to clean up the sport.

I was 7 when Lance first won, so when I think of the tour I think of Lance. The only real cheat for me has been Contador. And he was rightly stripped and banned.

If the truth hurts more then it helps, maybe, yeah.

I don’t think this childish denial of reality is a great way of dealing with life tbh.

Contador. And he was rightly stripped and banned.

So why a different rationale for Armstrong?

From what I’ve heard / read (and I don’t really follow road cycling) the evidence against Contador was relatively thin???

RealMan – Member

I was 7 when Lance first won, so when I think of the tour I think of Lance.

…explaining the immaturity behind your viewpoint.

From what I’ve heard / read (and I don’t really follow road cycling) the evidence against Contador was relatively thin???

Was enough for the authorities involved. If you want to believe what you hear from some cyclist on a club run and what you read from a wikipedia page, go for it.

I don’t think this childish denial of reality is a great way of dealing with life tbh.

What does anyone have to gain from him being found guilty?

Either the testing shows it or it doesn’t.

Personal testimony is worth what someone is getting out of it, either reduction or absolution for their crimes or something for seeing the rest fall.

Brilliant so if I do a bank job and they have no evidence then the 20 witnesses who saw me [ I forgot my mask ] counts for nothing then?

I would imagine LA cheated more than Contador and I was more disappointed in bertie than LA – it was all cheats then at least now some [ I would like to think the majorty] are clean.

What does anyone have to gain from him being found guilty?

The truth mainly.

Was enough for the authorities involved. If you want to believe what you hear from some cyclist on a club run and what you read from a wikipedia page, go for it.

I tend to use bbc.co.uk/news/ for news info – works quite well…

My point was, is the “evidence” presented in that USADA document not of a comparable standard to that presented against Contador?

What does anyone have to gain from him being found guilty?

Like I already said, the strong message that no matter how rich/powerful/successful you are, you are not above the law. Pretty strong discouragement to any future athletes tempted to cheat.

But I guess your fanboy dreams are more important.

I was 7 when Lance first won, so when I think of the tour I think of Lance. The only real cheat for me has been Contador. And he was rightly stripped and banned.

The only real cheat? You don’t appear to follow the sport that you claim to love so much very closely:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_doping_cases_in_cycling

If you don’t think Armstrong cheated then read this interview, it’s long so I’ll summarise it…

“So there is no doubt in my mind he (Lance Armstrong) took EPO during the ’99 Tour.”

As said by Michael Ashenden who near enough invented the test for EPO and until recently worked as a independent reviewer of blood passports.

So if the top blood doping expert thinks he cheated based on seeing the blood work, what more proof do you need?

The truth mainly.

Do we want the truth though? Can cycling handle the truth?

RealMan, for sport to work as a sport it has to be cheat free. Now, in the future and in the past.

For the benefit of the participants, spectators, sponsors and admirers. Its a role model from the top to the bottom. Not just in sport but in life in general.

Thats a gain for everyone.

You just seem to deny rationality because it spoils your blinkered view of the sport and worship of your cycling god.

Sod what you can handle – grow up and discover the truth at all cost.

Things dont imporve otherwise

Can cycling handle the truth?

The vast majority don’t ride a bike because of Armstrongs wins.

If he’s found guilty, it will be a sad day for cycling.

But I feel it’s futile to carry on discussing this, so let’s just agree to disagree. You can see him as an inspiring hero, you see him as a drug cheat. I know which one feels better for me.

The vast majority don’t ride a bike because of Armstrongs wins.

I actually reckon there was a time when I would’ve quit road cycling if he had been found guilty at that point. Not now, but before. You guys may not see that as a loss though.. 😉

So if the top blood doping expert thinks he cheated based on seeing the blood work, what more proof do you need?

A damning indictment if true BUT it needs to be proved in a court of law, NOT STW..