Also, he has used his fame to raise millions for charity – far more than pretty much the rest of the peleton combined over the history of the tour and yet there seems to be such a desire to bring him down at any cost – it just seems like irrational hatred. I just don’t get it.

TooTall – Member
He may have cheated all along tho.
Yet nothing conclusive. Since when did someone of the legal profession be happy with ‘may have’?

Did I say he was guilty? Am I a judge in his case? Don’t be a ****. I just doubt his innocence. And I’m not working just now…

You can’t help feeling that if he wasn’t such a **** he might have got away with it.

If you want to be the best, it helps to be of a certain personality.

You can’t help feeling that if he wasn’t such a **** he might have got away with it.

Got away without being spitefully pursued?

Do we want everyone to be like Gary Lineker? Cavendish comes over as a bit of a wanger at times too.

I only ever watched him ride his bike, and he was at times awesome (to use a nasty Americanism). Not really interested in his personality – that’s what my mates are for.

Cancellara – clean as fooking whistle. Been awesome all way through his career with steady development from his start with mapai and fassa to the awesome rider he is now.

So something similar to Armstrong who was World Road Race Champion long before he ever rode the Tour.

So where do you draw the line? Everyone knows Bjarne Riis doped, strip him of his titles?
Pantani, Vinokourov, Anquetil – how far back do you go? The crusade to get Armstrong is doing the sport more harm than good. By all means clean up the sport, I’m all for that (all sports, not just cycling) but FFS look forwards, not back.
And besides, you take away Armstrong’s Tour wins, how far down the list do you go before actually awarding the Maillot Jaune.

Here’s the top 6 from 2000:

Lance Armstrong
Jan Ullrich (Operation Puerto and known blood doper)
Joseba Beloki (implicated in Operation Puerto but never charged)
Christophe Moreau (tested postive for steroids)
Roberto Heras (tested positive for EPO)
Richard Virenque (took pretty much every performance enhancing drug under the sun)

Hmm, long way down the list before you can find a clean winner… Utterly pointless to pursue it.

So something similar to Armstrong who was World Road Race Champion long before he ever rode the Tour.

And then having cancer turned him from being a decent one day rider into a tour winner.

If you want to be the best, it helps to be of a certain personality.

This is true to a degree but not a given.

Surely time would be better spent ensuring current athletes aren’t doping rather than going after a retired one?

And then having cancer turned him from being a decent one day rider into a tour winner.

Why not? After you’ve witnessed real pain and suffering having a gentle bike ride around France might be considered to be a walk in the park, no?

why isn’t professional sport full of cancer-beaters then?

Dunno mate, I guess it would depend on whether they were world class athletes before the cancer too.

Why not? After you’ve witnessed real pain and suffering having a gentle bike ride around France might be considered to be a walk in the park, no?

Or perhaps it instills in you an insane desire to leave an idelible and immortal mark on your chosen field of endeavour whatever the cost to you and those close to you?

If you want a literary correlate for Lance’s story then check out Faust.

Also, he has used his fame to raise millions for charity – far more than pretty much the rest of the peleton combined over the history of the tour and yet there seems to be such a desire to bring him down at any cost – it just seems like irrational hatred. I just don’t get it.

You may want to read this:
clicky

Don’t care about the charity work or how long ago it was, If it can be proven that he used performance enhancing drugs to win races then he deserves to be outed as a doper.

If no other good comes of it perhaps it will lead to a drop in the number of overweight middle aged men in livestrong jerseys clogging up the lanes on a Sunday morning.

has cancellara won Fleche Wallone ???
Dont think so.
Or do you mean Mur de Grammont in Flanders ??

Yeh, different Mu(u)r, same phenomenon – esp as he rode Boonen off his wheel and made him look about as slow as me

FWIW, I susepct Armstrong was at it (among plenty others of course) but I doubt they’ll get him anytime soon

Draw a line. As said above how far back do you want to go. Might aswell tear up the results sheets for 40 years.

Yes look at making testing more rigorousness but aim for those racing now. If Armstrong fails a test doing the Tri then he fails.

There probably needs to be some limitation on this stuff.

100% in favor of clean sport but sometimes we need to start looking forward or risk missing whats going on in front of us.

What we don’t know is what info usada have. IF they have sworn testimonies from Hincapie et al saying that Lance doped then he may well be done. After Marion Jones and various others got jailed, people are running scared of lying, especially the US riders.

It’s certainly going to be revealing eight way.

There probably needs to be some limitation on this stuff.

How far back do reliable blood and urine samples go?

There’s your limit.

How far back do reliable blood and urine samples go?

There’s your limit.

doesn’t matter, we know Anquetil doped, we know tom simpson doped, Even Coppi Doped, although i am not sure drugs were banned then. Which raises another question, do we ban riders for using drugs that we now ban but didn’t know were in use then, or hadn’t got round to banning.

It won’t go away will it?

Why won’t they just leave it be. The bloke had been tested for all illegal substances at the time and has passed each one. Some people can achieve goals without the need for drugs. He’s also done a hell of a lot with the whole Livestrong charity work so don’t understand why he gets such a flaming on here

do we ban riders for using drugs that we now ban but didn’t know were in use then, or hadn’t got round to banning

I think bust any one for whom there is a valid sample for any performance enhancing drug now on the list. Regardless of whether it was banned at the time they were engaged in trying to attain an unfair advantage and so are guilty of perverting the rules of fair play.

How far back will that take you? 15 years?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/lance-armstrong-faces-fresh-doping-charges-from-usada/2012/06/13/gJQAefnPaV_story.html

We’ll have to see but it doesn’t sound good for him.

and regarding the charity bit, that may well not be so clear cut either

http://fraudbytes.blogspot.com/2012/01/lance-armstrong-investigation.html?m=1

http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/armstrongcharging0613.pdf

I think bust any one for whom there is a valid sample for any performance enhancing drug now on the list. Regardless of whether it was banned at the time they were engaged in trying to attain an unfair advantage and so are guilty of perverting the rules of fair play.

How far back will that take you? 15 years?

And for those who have confessed? which takes us back in pro cycling as we know it at least 70years, and if you take 6 day racing back to its roots over 100years. Cycling, and sport in general, has never been 100% clean. hence you need to draw a line and worry about the here and now and stop witch hunts that achieve nothing.

If anyones interested in reading the letter sent to Lance and the others by the USADA.

It’s here and it’s worth a read

nice of them to give out email addresses…

why isn’t professional sport full of cancer-beaters then?

Did someone call? 😉

For the record, I’m down on him ever since I emailed him about my story and the arse didn’t even send a stock reply back…

Kind of agree with the drawing a line angle, the scale of doping is widely acknowledged and it’s difficult to believe that any of the beneficiaries of stripped jerseys are clean either.

If Armstrong is cleared then maybe we’ll see the last of these retrospective investigations, if he’s found guilty it could open a whole new can of worms?

nice of them to give out email addresses…

Yeah I thought that too.

The charges against Bruyneel look pretty damaging too. Can you ban a DS?

Can you ban a DS?

🙁

Why so sad?

Can you ban a DS?

have a read up on Manolo Saiz, i think that will give you the answer.

Shame from a triathlon perspective – his progress was shaping up nicely for some high profile smackdowns with the great and good of the sport.

Not long now – these stories seem to pop around july like pics of chubby bathers on british beaches

Re personality: I agree this aspect is not for judging, but the character of the guy is – and doping is supremely relevant to that?

I hope actually he is innocent. I don’t wish to ‘go for a pint’ with him – but he has been awesome nonetheless and stands out as an individual.

jamesy01 – Member

Who cares?

He’s used his fame and position to do more for cancer charities than a majority of squeaky clean athletes/celebrities…

Errmm – Armstrong is getting richer of his “charity” Its a money making venture for him

Same names, same shite, same debate. Nothing would convince those who already have their minds made up whichever “side” they’re on.

Curious – How does he benefit- Is it Terry Wogan style getting paid for appearing – or more structural?

In the interest of the thread I ask the question earnestly, but am quite capable of using google 🙂

there is a link further up into analysis of it

IIRC he basically takes huge fees for appearances and anything else he does for the “charity”

charities should IMO be assessed on their efficiency – of every £ donated how many p actually reach the charity recipients and how much gets absorbed in costs.

It can vary tremendously from near on 90% to just a couple. again IIRC livestrong does not score well but read the link above