Are we heading further towards a Police state?

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  • Are we heading further towards a Police state?
  • Premier Icon mikejd
    Subscriber

    Looking at the recent business with Home Office officials targeting illegal immigrants by stopping people in the street, I’m beginning to wonder.

    pitduck
    Member
    PeterPoddy
    Member

    Well, if people stopped breaking laws and were nice to each other we wouldn’t need the police at all, would we..?

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    it’s in the nature of authority to gather power… I think it’s a bit of a leap to say that it’ll inevitably lead to a police state, otherwise I reckon you can say just about everyone’s heading further towards that.

    And I think the other side is the whole rolling news syndrome- it makes more sense now for governments to pander to the knee-jerks than ever before- let’s have kangaroo courts that can throw people in jail for 6 months for taking a bottle of water from a looted shop because that’s “rioting” (and because it’s harder to catch the actual rioters) And it’s far easier to manipulate stories, so that sometimes stunts become more important than actual law enforcement, even when that destroys lives. Boots stamping on human faces.

    But yeah, there’s some really bad steps been made. Some bad laws- terrorism laws that are so vague they can be used to stop peaceful protest frinstance. Laws that are so tempting to abuse.

    If you want a picture of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face — forever.

    Premier Icon binners
    Subscriber

    When we’ve a Foreign Secretary who stands up in parliament and without a hint of irony, utters that truly most moronic phrase ‘if you’ve nothing to hide, then you’ve nothing to fear’, then you know we really are in trouble!

    The one thing we can depend on though, so we don’t actually ever become a police state, is the monumental incompetence of those supposedly administering it!

    bencooper
    Member

    Crime has dropped by 50% in 20 years, but we have about the same number of police officers.

    So they have to find more to do.

    Klunk
    Member

    ‘if you’ve nothing to hide, then you’ve nothing to fear’

    some should have shouted out “show us your curtains!”

    Premier Icon soulwood
    Subscriber

    Bencooper, thankfully the govt slashing the NHS budget for mental health care has kept all those police thugs away from you and kept them standing with people who are addicted to various substances both legal and illegal who want to kill themselves. The recent hot spell has seen up to ten fascists a night up at the local a&e with people seeking help from non existent mental health services.

    b r
    Member

    tbh If you read the current post regarding ‘parking on my land’ it seems that this is what the population wants 🙂

    Or at least those populating planet STW.

    grum
    Member

    Pretty worrying when the government gets caught doing something illegal, so changes the law to stop it being illegal, and applies it retrospectively so that the illegal thing they did was never illegal at all.

    Didn’t that happen, or did I imagine it?

    This is worth a read too – http://mikesivier.wordpress.com/2013/02/11/uk-police-state-moves-a-step-closer-to-your-door/

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    bencooper – Member

    Crime has dropped by 50% in 20 years

    Yup, but doesn’t matter as long as the fear of crime can be kept unhealthily high.

    ninfan
    Member

    The weakness of the article is of course that Scotland has had the ability to punish through the criminal courts behaviour that would be seen as nothing more than annoying, and certainly not specifically outlawed, though the catch all criminal offence of ‘breach of the peace’ (something which the criminal law treats very differently in England & Wales) without anyone alleging that its become a ‘police state’ 😕

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    This is a fair point tbh… Just look at the poor ol’ naked rambler, stuck in a cycle of jail-release-arrest because in Scotland, just being outside and naked was a “breach of the peace”, whereas in England at least they waited til someone complained to arrest him.

    Does make you wonder why they try so hard to avoid a written constitution and virtually have apoplexy at the mention of the phrase human rights.

    hora
    Member

    I’ve actively driven over speed limits for 8yrs. Wheres this Police state?

    chewkw
    Member

    20thebear – Member

    Worth a read The Birth of a Police State

    We are already in a passive Police State.

    🙄

    mt
    Member

    It’s been going fhat way for a while but not in the ways you are banging on about. Why not make a list of all the people who can spy on you, interfere with your house, family, you job, your whole life. It will be while before you can put the security services, the police or politicians on there, not that I’d dismiss any of them. Yes I do own a foil helmet but I’m not wrong.

    project
    Member

    Crime has dropped by 50% in 20 years, but we have about the same number of police officers.

    But is that reported crime or real crime, like assaults, burglary,theft, muggings etc that dont get reported because people have lost faith in the police doing anything about it.

    or is it the way crime statistics are reported with various crimes all lumped intogether and made just one figure as opposed to lots of seperate crimes.

    it depends how old you are I suspect. Under 30? It might look that way. Over 30? It’s more liberal now than it’s ever been. The 80s were so much worse.

    cheekyboy
    Member

    Crime has dropped by 50% in 20 years, but we have about the same number of police officers.

    So they have to find more to do.
    Who says crime has dropped ?

    Do you really believe them ?

    piemonster
    Member

    it depends how old you are I suspect. Under 30? It might look that way. Over 30? It’s more liberal now than it’s ever been. The 80s were so much worse.

    Pretty much my take on it is their is less crime that I’m aware off. That however, is just my perception based on the frequency that myself and people I know experience crime. And that includes people with similar lifestyles and ages now as I had/was in my 90s..

    I did read somewhere that recreational drug use is declining. Any truth in that?

    piemonster
    Member

    That Stuart Hunt fella sounds a bit if a nob head. And quite probably deserved what he got.

    His neighbours however, may be just as bad.

    mt
    Member

    I see they worked their magic on Prettygreenparrot.

    It’s been building for years under all governments, the last government in particular helped to accelerated things. The Tories banging on about human rights is the side show to ever increasing powers for all levels of the state.

    bencooper
    Member

    Who says crime has dropped ?
    Do you really believe them ?

    It’s National Crime Survey figures – not reported crimes, but surveying a lot of people about their experiences of crime, so much more accurate.

    And yes, I’ve been (and I know others) who have been caught by the BoP nonsense in Scotland…

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    Over 30? It’s more liberal now than it’s ever been. The 80s were so much worse.

    I’m over 30. I think we’re a much less liberal country now than we were in the 1980s. For one thing, the government then wasn’t actively spying en masse on the ordinary activities of its citizens.

    Premier Icon jam bo
    Subscriber

    For one thing, the government then wasn’t actively spying en masse on the ordinary activities of its citizens

    only because it didnt have the technology to.

    Peyote
    Member

    Isn’t there something to be said for the massive increase in freedom of information we have since the Internet became so widespread? The Govt./Police/The Man have and are trying to regulate it but it’s not going to happen in a hurry.

    Also, despite the changing of the legislation and the increase in morally suspect powers to enforcement authorities, is it not still the case that budgets are being cut left, righ,t and centre? Who is going to actually do the donkey work to spy on all of us? There’s potentially a lot of “revolutionaries” (for want of a better word) who could be up to no good (from the Govts. POV) but their going to need a lot of people to listen in on phone calls, read e-mails/SMS etc…

    Every Police state needs a well resourced Police force, that’s something I’m not sure we have.

    crime has not dropped , the police are not arrsting people unless they have to, and then there are a raft of diversionary measures which they use instead of charging.If the public knew the serious offences for which people are being cautioned they would be very alarmed

    Premier Icon Northwind
    Subscriber

    1) Citation needed
    2) Cautions still count towards most crime statistics.

    Premier Icon ransos
    Subscriber

    only because it didnt have the technology to.

    That may be true, but it doesn’t change my point.

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    bencooper – Member
    Crime has dropped by 50% in 20 years, but we have about the same number of police officers.

    So they have to find more to do.

    is BS

    my 3 interactions with police in recent years

    phone stolen from bag whilst on the bus( side pocket was unzipped and empty when I got home)
    police insisted i fill out a property lost in the street form, refused to accept that it might of been stolen as I had no proof

    camera stolen from delivery suite waiting for son to be born, then located on ebay
    police wouldnt investigate unless i could get the seller to tell me the serial number as theyd just say ‘i bought it in good faith at a car boot sale’

    wallet lost/stolen and cards used to buy stuff online, pizzas, ipads etc
    policeman on duty- we dont investigate fraud were not really a proper station any more go to
    fraud website,which basically said; if they reimburse you let the credit card company deal with it,

    no wonder crime statistics are improving

    Premier Icon kimbers
    Subscriber

    its a fair point about the freedom of information act, I know there are ways around it but its changed a lot of things

    bencooper
    Member

    The figures for crimes aren’t from the police, they’re not about reports of crime or arrests or convictions, they’re from the British Crime Survey and similar surveys.

    Just one reference:
    http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/apr/25/uk-crime-falls-official-figures

    “Statisticians say the crime rate has halved since it peaked in 1995 and appears to be at its lowest level for more than 30 years.”

    robdixon
    Member

    If crime hasn’t dropped how come the self reported experience of crime surveys (i.e. not reported crime) show a trend that’s similar to reported crimes?

    We’re not talking about a small sample size here either – we’re well into tens of thousands of people surveyed annually on their experience of crime and the downward trend isn’t just a UK phenomenon; it’s a global trend which some researchers have linked to two things:

    1. A much longer term downward trend that started more than 200 years ago i.e. society is becoming more civilized
    2. The removal of leaded petrol / additives of benzine from lead replacement petrol, both of which have been linked to neurological problems and violence

    slowoldgit
    Member

    Lies, damn lies and statistics ben, they have a credibility gap amongst us oldies. For myself, I wonder what a long-serving copper would say.

    Plus the last para of that Grauniad linky mentions drop of 2%. I wonder what the statistical significance of it all is, a concept beyond the grasp of most reporters.

    bencooper
    Member

    Lies, damn lies and statistics ben, they have a credibility gap amongst us oldies. For myself, I wonder what a long-serving copper would say.

    Hmm, so a survey of thousands of people, conducted over 20+ years, against the opinion of an old copper. Yeah, I know which I’d trust.

    The police, and especially the police federation, have an interest in making us feel like we’d be over-run with criminals if there was any weakening of the thin blue line. But all the evidence from countries all over the world shows that it’s just not true.

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