Would that work on the slide as well as the swings?

You’ve never attempted to ride a bike down a slide?

Haven’t lived have you.

Tom_W1987 – Member

Thinner tyres cut through the mud down to the bedrock on DH tracks,

Sure, but spikes still aren’t the right choice on some muddy tracks- depends on the mud, how much there is and what’s in it. Have you tried the 2.5 Der Baron? It’s bigger than the 2.7 Maxxisses you mentioned and can be hugely effective, it’s not as good in pure slop but in everything else I reckon it’s better and it’s certainly better at mixed tracks. (it’s like a swampthing that works, or a more spaced Minion)

As far as I am aware I have never beaten Danny Hart and neither has my brother.

Well one of you needs to do that before you come on here spouting your opinions. Obv.

Poor Danny, doomed to spend the rest of his life being chased down by STW forum warriors trying to add some gravitas to our keyboard wafflings.

Sure, but spikes still aren’t the right choice on some muddy tracks- depends on the mud, how much there is and what’s in it. Have you tried the 2.5 Der Baron? It’s bigger than the 2.7 Maxxisses you mentioned and can be hugely effective, it’s not as good in pure slop but in everything else I reckon it’s better and it’s certainly better at mixed tracks.

Not yet Northwind, haven’t really ever moved away from Maxxis after some bad experiences with contis. How is it on muddy off camber high speed stuff? Never got round to riding it as I’d heard mixed opinions about it.

Tyre choice is a dark art. It’s all about the tread pattern anyway, for trail riding I still find 2.35 High Rollers give me better grip than a set of 2.4 Rubber Queens under all conditions – without that great an increase in rolling resistance.

Poor Danny, doomed to spend the rest of his life being chased down by STW forum warriors trying to add some gravitas to our keyboard wafflings.

I was getting irritated by being told that I was berating peoples bikes, I’m not, I just think there are different tools for different jobs – neither did I ever accuse fat bikes of not being fun – they clearly are.

Tom_W1987 – Member

Not yet Northwind, haven’t really ever moved away from Maxxis after some bad experiences with contis. How is it on muddy off camber high speed stuff?

Rounder shouldered and shorter knobbed so doesn’t have the spike of a… dur, spike. It’s just like the Baron really- not a full mud, but a trailbike tyre that’s been adapted for mud. So not a replacement for a spike, just a different thing.

I think mainly what I’m saying is, your examples of big tyres just aren’t that good, rather than it being a big tyre thing. And the situations where a narrow dualply work are very specific so doesn’t really suggest that narrower is better.

Fair point.

I still think for general use big arse tyres are to much and to heavy with decent sidewalls, I’d rather grip came from compound, tread pattern and suspension before width.

Know anywhere where I can get one cheap to try out on the front? Pinkbike review is having me um and ahh on trying it. It seems like it’s a bit compromised at everything, not very stable at braking/in turns, not as good at cutting into mud. Struggling to see where it fits – maybe I should just try one.

Having taken the time to get our pressures dialed in properly with an accurate gauge, we settled on 28 psi up front and 30 in the rear as a baseline from which to work when using standard XC based tubes. For a point of reference the equivalent for when we run Minions is 30 psi front and 36 out back. This will partly be down to the greater volume of the 2.5” Continental over the Maxxis casing. What we did find when on the initial occasions that we flatted was that it would happen precisely where we expected it to – you’d have an almighty hang up on a square edged rock at Fort William for instance and the pressure would disappear. Would a Maxxis have done it differently? Perhaps, perhaps not. Every hit and subsequent puncture is different. They’re perhaps marginally less resistant at the same pressure than the Maxxis (which is after all, the benchmark tire many riders are used to), but once we had the pressures set properly we eliminated punctures from our riding, without a loss of performance thanks to the soft and supremely grippy rubber compound used.

The Rain King/Der Baron is a wet conditions tire, although it is emphatically not a mud tire – that will arrive soon with the introduction of the new 2.2” Mud King. When the ground is soft, loose and damp, littered with roots and rocks and generally pretty gripless these tires do a fantastic job of clawing onto the surface and finding what grip there is. Thanks to that Black Chilli rubber, they hook up well on the roots and rocks so that even when they do inevitably begin to slide it’s predictable and controlled. The first time we tried them was in sub-zero conditions at a Winter race in early 2010. The ground was hard, polished ice and many riders were really struggling yet it was here that the soft rubber came into its own, feeling planted and predictable, really allowing you to push hard.

Under normal conditions we initially felt that the Der Baron didn’t brake as well as some, possibly due to being wider and struggling to cut into soft terrain, also maybe down to a relatively narrow braking edge. But it’s definitely not bad by any means, and it’s still the equal of many others, it just doesn’t instill the same level of confidence as it does in the turns. It is also a large 2.5” which does somewhat limit mud clearance on tight fitting frames. In deep mud though, clearly a tire as large as this isn’t going to be ideal, and so it proved. But if you’re riding thick mud over rocks and roots it still manages to claw back some of the disadvantage it otherwise has in the mud as a result of its size. Overall it’s a very impressive tire, well suited to wet, wooded or rocky conditions where the going is soft, but a spike is unnecessary.

this thread needs more pictures

or less words

The pinkbike review nailed it pretty well I think- it works on slippery but relatively hard stuff. So muddy wet trails full of roots and rocks, rather than deep mud or constant slop. Just the exact job a swampthing was supposed to do, but was never good enough at, really. Probably not a great dh race tyre, too allroundy but ace if you want a one-tyre-does-it-all uplift tyre or similiar. I’ve used it a couple of times for enduros too, probably makes no sense for a really good rider but the confidence in chaosy muddy roots is great.

TBH I think even if the + size thing doesn’t take off we’ll see more fat “normal” tyres in the near future- there’s the wide rims to support them and manufacturers have got better at fighting the weight down.

PS my brother couldn’t beat Danny Hart but I did once see Danny ride a chicken run, where I had ridden a different but harder chicken run, so I reckon I’m better. And I’ve beaten Crawford Carrick-Anderson * and Lewis Buchanan **…

(* 2 punctures, I still only beat him by about 10 seconds)
(** had to go home for his tea)

If I had a brother he’d have chased down a young steve peat no bother

The pinkbike review nailed it pretty well I think- it works on slippery but relatively hard stuff. So muddy wet trails full of roots and rocks, rather than deep mud or constant slop. Just the exact job a swampthing was supposed to do, but was never good enough at, really. Probably not a great dh race tyre, too allroundy but ace if you want a one-tyre-does-it-all uplift tyre or similiar. I’ve used it a couple of times for enduros too, probably makes no sense for a really good rider but the confidence in chaosy muddy roots is great.

I think this is a maybe for me, I’ll see if anyone I know has one that I can errr borrow. 😈

If I had a brother he’d have chased down a young steve peat no bother

You guys really do viciously defend your fatbikes don’t you. It’s like the argument over 29ers but worse, militant fat bikers – you’re all secretly ashamed of riding them and consequently blow up when someone takes the piss.

(* 2 punctures, I still only beat him by about 10 seconds)
(** had to go home for his tea)

My comment was a bit stupid to be fair, was just getting mildly irritated.

would your virtual brother have beaten my real brother at chasing down the virtual Steve Peat?

You guys really do viciously defend your fatbikes don’t you.

That’s a tad harsh, especially as I don’t have one!

would your virtual brother have beaten my real brother at chasing down the virtual Steve Peat?

😯

That’s a tad harsh, especially as I don’t have one!

😉

of course .. ’tis the season after all.

As far as I can tell the only guy who’s ridden a 650b+ on a proper bike and not some rigid beard machine is Nasher.

The old argument that 2.7″ tyres are too heavy etc is forgetting that tyre technology has improved a little these days, plus we have tubeless, lighter wheels, wider rims, better suspension.

Some mnufacturers are already saying this is the future and 650b is gone on the upper end within two to three years.

Tyres haven’t really gotten any lighter. A 2.8 dual ply is still going to weight in the region of 1500-1600 grams. Maybe 1400 in 1.5 ply.

DI.A 2015 Breakout Sessions | Are 27.5+ Wheels the Future?

There is a lot of controversy with the topic of new standards, namely wheel sizes. Do you anticipate any difficulties with the 650b+ concept gaining traction?

MS: With 29” firmly established and 26” being the original standard 27.5” is being easily accepted. Plus size 27.5” tires can fit existing 29” bikes (if the tire is not too fat) and 26” fatbikes (if riders are looking for less bounce). 27.5” fits more people than 29” and the bigger tires roll faster.

LOL, what? So 27.5 tyres fit people better, so lets make them larger so they don’t.

Pure marketing BS and it will be forced on us like 650b was.

The extra air volume of the so called plus size tires is very confidence inspiring. 29+ wheels make the bike too long in my estimation. Too much gyroscopic energy stored in those big wheel

More bad physics, if your 3 inch tyre is heavier then it’s going to be more cumbersome than the 29er. More BS.

These mid-fat wheels take away much of the rotating weight and rolling resistance of a full fat tire and rim, yet offer significantly more air volume than a conventional set-up. Similar to how 27.5? rims became the standard after 29? proved to be too extreme for many riders. The industry tends to do this (settling between two extremes – remember the Monster T fork?) so we really shouldn’t be surprised.

So what we will be getting is not something that covers snow as well as 26/4 inch fatbike and something that is heavier and arguably no better than a standard trail tyre. Greeeat – more exploiting niches with crap marketing claims to make a bit more cash.

Who says you need 2 ply on a trail/AM bike?

What if 650b+ with 28mm inner width rims and single ply 2.7″ have a lot more grip than 2.3 1.5 plys and 650b wheels?

I don’t know but I suspect that is the case.

They aren’t talking about 27mm inner rim widths but 40mm inner rim widths and 3 inch tyres.

What if 650b+ with 28mm inner width rims and single ply 2.7″ have a lot more grip than 2.3 1.5 plys and 650b wheels?

There’s such things as to much grip, when it either becomes a hindrance due to rolling resistance or weight.

Who says you need 2 ply on a trail/AM bike?

Anyone who races or rides in places that are rocky.

Can someone explain to me the point of this bike for example?

Look at that tread patten? How is that going to give you anymore grip than a tyre with a better tread pattern at a lower weight, that exhibits less undamped tyre deflection and roll. What the hell is the point? It’s still not going to be a proper all terrain bike like a full fat fatbike.

I just wish they’d hurry up and make/import the bloody thing!

On the side: the tread is a fairly narrow 58mm wide. . So the casing extends well beyond the protective shield of the tread rubber.

http://twentynineinches.com/2014/08/22/wtb-trailblazer-27-5-x-2-8-tires-exclusive-b-review-intro/

LOL

So we have a tyre that’s been made taller to make it a bit more like a 29er, however it’s squirmier – more prone to being gashed open on rocks, heavier…..oh and the tread pattern actually isn’t actually wider than many standard tyres. To top that off, we’ll replace some nice damped suspension travel with undamped tyre volume…cuz the casings bigger and therefore more comfortable.

Genius.

Some mnufacturers are already saying this is the future and 650b is gone on the upper end within two to three years.

oh, so I should hold off from dropping three grand on a carbon 140mm 650b-er then?

Can someone explain to me the point of this bike for example?

I’ve used a 29er spearfish for bikepacking. This just takes it a bit further, more traction, minimise additional drag, additional comfort of softer pressure. When you start using a bike for other things, maximising ability to grip vs speed is not a constant.

To top that off, we’ll replace some nice damped suspension travel with undamped tyre volume…cuz the casings bigger and therefore more comfortable.

You’re assuming FS, what about on an HT?

I’d give it a whizz on the rear end of a 29er, certainly.

There is a certain market of people (of which I’m one) who don’t have an FS because they CBA with the maintenance, cost, setup faff, and technology.

Matt, I can see the point of it on a hard tail and rigids. I can see the point of full on fat bikes – I think we’re about to be in for a wave of marketing guff that will dwarf the 650b debacle though.

I’ve used a 29er spearfish for bikepacking. This just takes it a bit further, more traction, minimise additional drag, additional comfort of softer pressure.

It has a 58mm wide tread pattern though, no wider than many normal tyres. So it’s about comfort, which begs the question – why use it on a full suspension bike? Not only that, why one would want an air sprung bike for adventure touring is beyond me.

There’s such things as to much grip, when it either becomes a hindrance due to rolling resistance or weight.

Too much grip? Don’t you just go faster?

We’re talking 10mm off a 2.3″ 29″ diameter tyre so there will probably be an improvement in rolling resistance over a 650b 2.3.

Again, Nashers Enduro 29″ in this thread was only slightly heavier than standard. That’s the kind of bike people are saying are rapid.

Too much grip? Don’t you just go faster?

If that was the case people would have run 2.7 high rollers. They never did.

We’re talking 10mm off a 2.3″ 29″ diameter tyre so there will probably be an improvement in rolling resistance over a 650b 2.3.

Much like that huge gain in rolling resistance we saw by going to 650b.

Again, Nashers Enduro 29″ in this thread was only slightly heavier than standard. That’s the kind of bike people are saying are rapid.

I see the point of 29. I don’t see the point of some bollocky half way house between 27.5 and 29 that is compromised and then spun by marketers that it’s not and actually great for those who don’t want a 29er.

Tom_W1987 – Member

Well brake dive, and the way your body positioning/weight distribution has a drastic effect on the performance of the suspension.
IME after riding suspension for a long time you only notice the positives but take it away and the negatives become apparent.

And you will get those exact same effects with balloon like tyres, except they are undamped.[/quote]

And you will get those exact same scaled down effects with balloon like 3″ tyres, except they are undamped.

Anyway this is becoming less relevant to the thread so we’ll leave it for another eh..
I was originally simply stating my experience of my first rigid bike in 20years which happens to have a incomprehensibly humongous balloon tyre on the front.

On the FS / B+ combo thing, bigger low PSI tyres do a great job of taking out the smaller high-frequency stuff that suspension may not react fast enough to deal with, or it may be that the tyre taking it out early on is an effective way to go. The concerns about a bit more unsprung mass lessen when the suspension’s not being asked to do that really high-frequency stuff. If the suspension’s set up well the tyres won’t need to deform very far so the pogo-rebound shouldn’t be an issue.
There will be a balance point for different riders + bikes – full fat full sus maybe an oddity for most but 2.8-3.0 B+ with wide carbon rims on a 140-150mm trail bike sounds like fun to me.

On the FS / B+ combo thing, bigger low PSI tyres do a great job of taking out the smaller high-frequency stuff that suspension may not react fast enough to deal with, or it may be that the tyre taking it out early on is the most effective way to go. The concerns about a bit more unsprung mass lessen when the suspension’s not being asked to do that really high-frequency stuff. There will be a balance point for different riders + bikes – full fat full sus maybe an oddity for most but 2.8-3.0 B+ with wide carbon rims on a 140-150mm trail bike sounds like fun to me. If the suspension’s set up well the tyres won’t need to deform very far so the pogo-rebound won’t be an issue.

Which one can do by running lower PSI with procore.

That won’t mean a new frame, fork and wheels though. So the industry won’t push it.

Tom_W1987 – Member

Anyone who races or rides in places that are rocky.

Not my finding personally… And it doesn’t really get much rockier than kinlochleven, if it wasn’t for the boulders you’d just sink up to your neck in the swamps. I’ve used heavyweight singleplies tubeless (specialized sx) for dh racing at glencoe and fort william too (and ironically the one time I used dualplies for the endurance dh, I flatted) I tend to use fairly thinwalled singleplies- butches and barons. Mind you, I’m not fast, midfield in most races.

Which one can do by running lower PSI with procore.

Sure, another way to do something similar but a 2.35 at 20-25psi won’t soak up as much or have as low rolling resistance as 2.8+ at under 15psi. Whether you want that or not .. And I don’t know how resistance to pinching changes between the two ideas. Procore should be better?

So the industry won’t push it.

I expect only Schwalbe will really push Procore : ) It’d be great standard kit on a complete bike but more of an aftermarket item generally, whereas B+ gives brands a new thing to do – or something else to worry that their competitors will do sooner / better than them.

BTW Tom I’m not disagreeing with you or very pro-B+, just interested. I’ve got B+ kit here. Personally I think I’d rather have some 50mm carbon rims on my 29er with 2.5s and a procore system of sorts.. but that’s on a beardy hair-shirter rigid bike.

What’s the bike pictured above? It looks like a womens shopping bike.

I’ll always remember removing my 2.7 Maxxis tyres from my Bullit when my guiding was done, and throwing on some prototype Specialized 2.3 DH tyres that I’d been given and hitting Whistler Bike Park. Of course I thought I’d die a horrible death, but I was surprised to find that for many trails there was actually a significant improvement. The trails came alive! I was cornering on rails!

Of course, now I’ll only be happy when I have 700d rims, 140mm wide and made from Berillium. And a really long beard.

Its coming to be called 29ER+ watch this space.

As a home mechanic, and who doesn’t ‘do’ Enduro, Procore looks like a bunch of faff. Pass.

walleater.

I’ll always remember removing my 2.7 Maxxis tyres from my Bullit when my guiding was done, and throwing on some prototype Specialized 2.3 DH tyres that I’d been given and hitting Whistler Bike Park. Of course I thought I’d die a horrible death, but I was surprised to find that for many trails there was actually a significant improvement. The trails came alive! I was cornering on rails!

Was that before or after you and scruff cried when Phil made you carry your bikes up a bit of a hill? 😉

As others have said ride what you want and don’t worry what anyone else is doing.Afterall it’s got fuckall to do with you. 🙂

If I had a brother he’d have chased down a young steve peat no bother
You guys really do viciously defend your fatbikes don’t you. It’s like the argument over 29ers but worse, militant fat bikers – you’re all secretly ashamed of riding them and consequently blow up when someone takes the piss.

Not really millitant or viciously defending fat bikes just taking the piss because you think you’re the bees knees because your brother once beat another child riding Down a hill & the child grew up to be world champ.