and if ethnicity should be discussed maybe we could start with why the (white) police dropped a case concerning (white) girls and it took nazir afzal to pick it up and prosecute it. presumably the bnp and their ilk will be celebrating him.

Many many wouldn’t touch the topic/such case(s) with a shitty stick.

Imagine the stress of someone shouting racism and victimisation etc.

Plus there is the added element that such kids are lost/from the wrong tracks anyway.

Sad all round really.

All along the police and politicians have said there is no racial element to this case. This is patent nonsense to anyone who’s got anything between their ears.

I’m not sure I agree.

The ‘victims’ weren’t chosen because of their race, they were chosen because of their attitudes…which were brought about by their upbringing. It just so happens that coincidentally the young girls concerned were caucasian.

Surely the “racial” issue is not with the victims but the perpetrators. There is no doubt that in northern cities the grooming on the street of vulnerable girls is overwhelming conducted by pakistani asian men.

To ignor that fact does no service to anyone and ultimately only provides ammunition to the likes of the BNP and EDL.

Someoyne has asked me to post this

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LHU-tMSJEo&feature=related[/video]

Question time is in Oldham tomorrow night.

Just seen on twitter that tickets are available.

Surely the “racial” issue is not with the victims but the perpetrators. There is no doubt that in northern cities the grooming on the street of vulnerable girls is overwhelming conducted by pakistani asian men.

Substitute “taxi drivers” for “pakistani asian men” and you have as accurate a statement, but one which is far less emotive.

Substitute “taxi drivers” for “pakistani asian men” and you have as accurate a statement, but one which is far less emotive.

Presumably you are not a white taxi driver?

Surely the “racial” issue is not with the victims but the perpetrators.

No, the real “racial” issue is that, initially, those who were supposed to protect these children and investigate/prosecute the offenders did not do their job properly, allegedly because of the race of the perpetrators.

In other news:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-17822473

Presumably you are not a white taxi driver?

No, I’m not. And I’m not trying to imply that all taxi drivers are all rapists, far from it. Just that the majority of the convicted people in this case appear to be taxi drivers or know each other through taxi driving. They are also of Asian ethnicity.

It makes just as much sense (more perhaps) to link them through their occupation as it does to refer to their ethnicity or their faith. As taxi drivers, they have all sorts of excuses for being anywhere, at any time of night. They get access to young, drunk girls. They have transport (obviously).

Yet rather than looking at this (to me, fairly obvious) link, the press are looking at race. Again.

Junkyard, I think you need to take a breath and maybe consider a few apologies.

Ay right I owe a few apologies but you can say this unchallenged on stw

it is their religious views that make them regard “white girls are worthless and can be abused”, nothing to do with them being Indian or Pakastani.

You sure you are attacking the correct attitude here and the one you dislike the most??

C

learly the race element is worthy of discussion in this case. Its only through discussing things in an open and frank manner that lessons can be learnt. Throwing out accusations at people in a quite vile manner because they dont agree with you is immature and offensive.

Are you defending that view?
.
I don’t know why you think what I said was vile but that quoted was not . I best not form an opinion on that as that would be immature and offensive?
Opposing racism is immature and offensive oh behave will you.
Elf would be ace on this thread 😥

OK JY you were on a rantette, but your use of racist in this context is unnecessary and unhelpful

Possibly true in that instance[tootall ] but they are on dodgy ground IMHO

you can jump on silly arguments without playing the race card and destroy them will equal force.

I did that as well you chose not to quote it

Over/incorrectly playing the race/sex/age whatever XXX, merely provides ammunition to the bigots who discriminate in the first place….imho, of course!

Not sure it does tbh but it can definitely stifle debate

you don’t have to be racist, to recognise that the term racist is often overused and mis-applied especially in the media.

What like PC gone mad and all that? I think the headlines today will in general show the media is still quite happy to play the race card when it is against the dark skinned people but rarely plays it when white folk are doing stuff. I don’t think this [your view]is the case tbh but I accept people think it is.

The problem isn’t race. It’s religious and cultural attitudes towards women

Re Salwa al Mutairi
Perhaps you could do a critique of the westbro baptism church and assume their message was typical of Americans or Christians or white people?…every race/religion has nutters but that is no reason to give them disproportionate weight or to think their views are typical of the community to which they belong.

Ann Cryers statement, re the police:
“This is an absolute scandal. They were petrified of being called racist and so reverted to the default of political correctness,” she said. “They had a greater fear of being perceived in that light than in dealing with the issues in front of them.”
Which all goes back to my original point really

But there is no proof the police reason was that she would not be a reliable witness, It plays into people’s perceptions but this does not mean it is true
It’s a funny day when the lefty is defending the institutionally racist police establishment as so PC they were afraid to act due to PC…does this apply to kettling? ..you could not make this up…really you could not

it serves someone agenda to think that PC dogooders stiflled the investigation of sexual crimes but i dont think it is true

What’s shameful is because the BNP were bleating on about Muslim Asian gangs grooming non-Muslim girls for sex, everybody else dismissed it as nothing more than racist lies when it actually turns out they weren’t lying.

Yes we are getting too hung up on race, the Muslim Asian community should have been given the opportunity to denounce the behaviour of some of their community rather than everyone bury their heads in the sand and deny it happens.

And why does religion always get confused with race?

it serves someone agenda to think that PC dogooders stiflled the investigation of sexual crimes but i dont think it is true

Not so much PC dogooders, more that it’s astonishingly difficult to get a rape conviction in the UK, the more so when the victim can be shown to be somewhat less than a chaste convent schoolgirl, and is unable to give absolute concrete facts due to alcohol/drug intake.

That’s the real scandal – the fact that women are treated as second-class citizens by the police and courts when it comes to sexual crimes. Sure, things have got better in the last few decades, but even now, the attrition rate for rape is just 12%. That means the number convicted from alleged offences is about one in eight. The actual conviction rate is just over 50% – so even when the CPS believes is has a solid case, a victim prepared to put herself through the ordeal of court, and unimpeachable evidence, only one in two prosecutions is successful.

This case is particularly shocking (a gang, multiple victims, prostitution), but step back a little and consider that something around 85,000 rapes are reported each year (2006 stats)….meaning that a vast number – maybe 70,000 – of these crimes go unpunished.

Don’t just get angry about this case, get angry about the treatment of women as a whole.

And why does religion always get confused with race?

So why mention Muslim Asians? These men are Asians, certainly, but there’s nothing they’ve done which remotely corresponds to any definition of Muslim that I’ve ever seen.

Ay right I owe a few apologies but you can say this unchallenged on stw

i didnt say it.
By just calling everyone who has a different view to you racist you do somewhat end the debate.

I’m still loving your copy and paste skills though.

What’s shameful is because the BNP were bleating on about A Muslim Asian gangs grooming non-Muslim girls for sex, everybody else dismissed it as nothing more than racist lies when it actually turns out they weren’t lying

remember that paedo childminding gang from plymouth a couple of years back..?
Does that make all white british women paedos..?
NO

ignent redneck cracker

Binners – I think the racial aspect of this has been downplayed – not becuse the cops are afraid of being called racist but because they are trying NOT(edit) to to give the bnp et al ammuninition.

Clearly is a racial element to it – but its not central the case

Yunki are you able to read. How you’ve interpreted it, isnt what was written.

So why mention Muslim Asians? These men are Asians, certainly, but there’s nothing they’ve done which remotely corresponds to any definition of Muslim that I’ve ever seen.

So Catholic priests aren’t Catholic then?

Does that make all white british women paedos..?

Where on earth did you step from a discussion about the problem of “Muslim Asian gangs grooming non-Muslim girls for sex” – and there have been several cases, so its not an isolated occurance – to an paralell with him calling all moslems paedophiles? He didn’t, so I think you should apologise

(Though to be fair there’s a bit of an issue with that Mohammed bloke supposedly marrying a child, isn’t there?)

and yes, the BNP were bleating on about it, so was Jack Straw, So was Anne Cryer, So were lots and lots of other people – its reactions like Yunki’s, calling people rednecks and allegations of racism, that closed down debate and led to this problem being swept under the carpet.

(Though to be fair there’s a bit of an issue with that Mohammed bloke supposedly marrying a child, isn’t there?)

there is plenty of bollocks in the bible too, i mean its not like many christians are homophobic is it?

So Catholic priests aren’t Catholic then?

The Catholic element is absolutely relevant – these are supposedly holy men who have acted in the most hypocritical (and unChristian) manner possible, and the Catholic hierarchy has institutionally covered up their wrongdoings.

Not quite the same as labelling these criminals as “Muslim Asians”, is it? Unless you’re certain that the linkage is their purported faith or their ethnic origin, of course.

£300.000 pounds the cost to Merseyside Police in proteccting the rapists from the public,while at court.

Then there is the cost of the Criminal Injuries Compensation to be paid to the girls involved, and bed and breakfast for a number of years for the rapists and perverts.

nickf – Why?

its a fact, isn’t it?

I can’t see anyone suggesting that all moslems are paedophiles, or that all asians are paedophiles

however in this case they were, its a statement of fact, and the judge, who heard all the evidence stated that

“All of you treated (the victims) as though they were worthless and beyond respect… One of the factors leading to that was the fact that they were not part of your community or religion”

Also, perhaps of note, perhaps not – one of the perpetrators was “The religious studies teacher at a local mosque”

“All of you treated (the victims) as though they were worthless and beyond respect… One of the factors leading to that was the fact that they were not part of your community or religion”

Tell you what Zulu, why don’t you actually tell us what you think? Instead of bleating from the sidelines like some frustrated right-wing cheerleader with hair. Do you agree with the judge?

(I realise that from before, you intimated that you’d experienced some kind of racism hell in your time, but try not to let that colour your opinion here.)

EDIT: Oh, and Wunundred 😀

Darcy – I didn’t see and hear all the evidence,none of us did – I’d suggest that the judge is in a better position to comment on what factors played a part than any of us is.

as for what I think – I said before that I’ve heard tales of this from friends in the Keighley and Bradford area for years, so I’m not at all suprised, and I think its a very sad reflection on the people that should have taken action nothing was done about it sooner.

Avoiding all the personal hatred above and going back to the title.
I would say yes.
If our society is supposed to be one big happy mix then talking race is trivial.
Is it really that important anyway? How much smething costs me is more important than their colour or politics.

Well ain’t that typical Zulu 😆

[edited – there’s really no point arguing with those who refuse to see]

So, what do you think darcy?

Is it acceptable to not prosecute wrongdoing in the name of maintaining racial harmony?

is it really acceptable if nothing was done to protect these girls, just so that the BNP didn’t stir up trouble?

Ay right I owe a few apologies but you can say this unchallenged on stw
i didnt say it.

I never said you said it I said you did not challenge it in my original post followed by
You sure you are attacking the correct attitude here and the one you dislike the most??
Hardly likely to say that if I though you said it.
The use of you was unhelpful as I did not mean you. Still you could have challenged that view twice but you chose to attack me for saying some posts were racist both times.

By just calling everyone who has a different view to you racist you do somewhat end the debate.?

We seemed to have debated since so i would say that is not true or the thread would have died

I’m still loving your copy and paste skills though.

And I still admire your ad hominem attacks whilst accusing me of doing this because I said some posts were racist. Perhaps you could practice what you preach re “calling” people?

So Catholic priests aren’t Catholic then?

You forgot to mention their place of origin whilst making that non point 🙄
Place of origin was the point muslim asian v catholic …does it need spelling out for you?

Nick f an excellent point re rape convictions rates which are truly shocking. When you consider that many go unreported because they know it is unlikely to be proved. I don’t have an answer tbh but it is lamentable

Is it acceptable to not prosecute wrongdoing in the name of maintaining racial harmony?

No.

is it really acceptable if nothing was done to protect these girls, just so that the BNP didn’t stir up trouble?

Not evading, but should the “if” be a “that”?

Is it acceptable to not prosecute wrongdoing in the name of maintaining racial harmony?

Have you got any actual proof that this happened?
no one would think that the law should do anything other than be applied universally to all hence why you gave the weighted question.

i could reply with do you think we should prosecute someone with insufficient evidence because of their skin colour?

I just treated the question as if it wasn’t weighted…probably a bit naive of me…seeing as it was Zulu-I-may-have-been-the-victim-of-racism-Eleven posting it. 🙂

You forgot to mention their place of origin whilst making that non point

Nope – the comment made was that their actions meant they were not muslim – Read it again

but there’s nothing they’ve done which remotely corresponds to any definition of Muslim that I’ve ever seen.

To which I replied:

So Catholic priests aren’t Catholic then?

No mention of Asian, no mention of white – only that disowning them with “their actions mean they are not muslim” is a rather poor, typical leftie get out, like saying Blair was not really a socialist.

😉

Have you got any actual proof that this is what happened

Just as much proof as you’ve got to form the opinion that it didn’t

it serves someone agenda to think that PC dogooders stiflled the investigation of sexual crimes but i dont think it is true

See that – you’re demanding proof that it did happen, but you’re quite happy to dismiss the possibility that it happened, despite the equal lack of proof that can be levelled against your own argument!

The answer to Have you got any actual proof that this is what happened is Have you got any proof that it didn’t?

Z-11 ok you are correct on the first point so mea culpa 😳
I am fairly confident Blair would say he is not a socialist but then again he is not good with the truth so who knows 😉

Have you got any actual proof that this is what happened
Just as much proof as you’ve got to form the opinion that not

so that is an elaborate way of saying no i dont have any proof then 😕

you’re demanding proof that it did happen,

Forgive me for my rationalist position to the discussion and demanding evidence to support a view I shall try and refrain and present more unevidenced points whilst debating 🙄

but you’re quite happy to dismiss the possibility that it happened, despite the equal lack of proof that can be levelled against your own argument!

do you know the difference between think and know?
You are in danger of becoming religious here and demanding I prove a negative. If someone asserts something then they should offer proof. It is perfectly reasonable to ask for proof in this case and it is perfectly clear you cannot.

And the Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre (CEOP) said it was “investigating why there may be a majority of Asians in these particular kinds of offence”.

This suggests that there is enough evidence for the CEOP to consider it worth investigating. Hopefully they’ll come up with some strategies to reduce the risk to vulnerable girls. They may even answer the “stw” question, but until they report their conclusions it’s premature to suggest anything can be proved or disproved on this thread.
It’s obvious that big decisions taken in the 2008 inquiries were totally wrong. The IPCC should tell us what caused these mistakes, and also which theories should be discounted. It would be totally wrong to dismiss such possibilities before these investigations.

It was also revealed in court that a 15-year-old victim who became pregnant by one of the defendants went to the police in August 2008.
After the verdicts, GMP and the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) apologised for failing to bring her case to trial following her cry for help.
The Independent Police Complaints Commission is spearheading an investigation into that failed inquiry.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-17989463

If we remove the colour from this its not racially motivated. However I understand these were all white girls that were abused. I also understand though possibly incorrectly that these individuals preyed on white girls because they see them as lower value, unworthy etc.

Now that may be incorrect.

But if you have a white guy attacking a black guy the first thing that is tagged is a hate crime. Now which is worse the sexual aspect or the racist, if any aspect.

Unfortunate there are and will always be racism, however there are over generalisations. Somone who says something once may be considered racist but the context may be similar to calling someone fat etc. Dependent on social circumstance ie how they use the language etc. Does telling a joke about a minority make you racist. Simply by segregating the population demographically is that not racist.

Because you may be a different colour and I have seen this first hand does not preclude racism. Minorities are just as good and bad as the majority.

I wont rule out a racist element but the lilly livered liberal element have made a rod for everyones backs. Some BNP policy is good, however the motivation is not.

Was it religeous? Not classed as a hate crime I believe as statutes rely too much on the colour of your skin. Is north v south as bad as white v black. Yes it is, violence due to difference and intollerance is always bad.

When they have served their sentences will these sad individuals be deported. I very very much doubt it. Why because we have a totally inept government, no difference from Labour in that respect.

But if you have a white guy attacking a black guy the first thing that is tagged is a hate crime.

is it? in every single case? I am pretty sure people of different colours can have a fight without it being racist.

Because you may be a different colour and I have seen this first hand does not preclude racism.

has anyone suggested only whites can be racist this is a spurious line trotted out for some reason on these threads.

I wont rule out a racist element but the lilly livered liberal element have made a rod for everyones backs. Some BNP policy is good, however the motivation is not.

could you elaborate on what “lilly livered liberal” stuff is bad and what BNP stuff is good?

JY pulling every post apart because your right and we are wrong.

Yes generalisations, observations. Which is what a lot of the posts here are. So everyone is wrong and you are right.

Try letting people have there say.

But if you have a white guy attacking a black guy the first thing that is tagged is a hate crime.

is it? in every single case? I am pretty sure people of different colours can have a fight without it being racist.

Did I ssay in every case!

Because you may be a different colour and I have seen this first hand does not preclude racism.

has anyone suggested only whites can be racist this is a spurious line trotted out for some reason on these threads.

Spurious line trotted out on these threads? What other threads? Did I suggest that people are only suggesting whites can be racist?

Bad “lilly livered liberal” stuff, defending the indefensible, changing our own culture, even as far as not being able to Christmas and fly our own flag due to “racial” sensetivities, when the only people getting their knickers in a twist are usually councils and “lilly livered liberals”

BNP stuff thats good, limiting imigration, not necessarily in the realms they wish but certainly imposing more greater control. Being able to fly our own flag and celebtrate Christmas.

Anything else or are you off back to the Guardian!

BNP stuff thats good, limiting imigration, not necessarily in the realms they wish but certainly imposing more greater control. Being able to fly our own flag and celebtrate Christmas.

God that is pathetic. “Being able to fly our own flag and celebrate Christmas”….. because of course it’s illegal 🙄

And “limiting immigration” has been the policy of every single government I can think of.

There’s no such thing as “good stuff” from the BNP.

Yunki are you able to read. How you’ve interpreted it, isnt what was written.

sorry, you’re right.. I got the wrong end of the stick.. 😳

Of course there was a racial element to this – on a couple of levels, this makes sense.

Firstly, it is easier to brand other nationalities/races/language groups as one thing or another when you are in many ways culturally distant from them. How many English men go on Stag Dos to other countries with a known sex industry? If they showed up at a brothel and propositioned a prostitute who answered in their own home town accent, I bet a fair few would find this disturbing, but it is no problem getting beered up and having sex with an Eastern European prostitute because, well, they’re all like that aren’t they?

Secondly, in Islam there is a very strict culture regarding sex, probably breeding some frustration among some men in those communities who enjoy the ‘masculinity’ of having a ‘little woman’ at home, but crave something they deem to be more ‘exciting’.

Now blend some genuine evil into the mix and you have your ‘motive’ right there.

A broader point, though, is one of the blatant criminality – if you view this one case in isolation, then after arrest, you can take the race element out of it – crime is crime, pure and simple. Lock them up and it’s a shame we cannot mete out the sort of ‘justice’ that some of these mens’ cultures would prescribe.

However, you then have to come back to the issue of prevention, whatever the potential outcry, if there is a proven correlation between men of a certain ethnicity specifically exploiting children of a different ethnicity, then the police should act with this in mind – prevention of crime is a far better outcome than prosecution of perpetrators.

There is one further issue here – what on earth are girls or boys of the ages in this case doing hanging around the streets at night – and bear in mind we are not talking village streets and evenings, we are talking city streets and early hours of the morning. No one should have to ‘learn lessons’ like this, but if anything good can come out of this it is that some sets of ‘parents’ realise that their children are likely to be in danger and do something about it.

Let’s hope the perpetrators of this crime rot in this life – and the next.

Those countless westerners that have flocked to the east for decades in search of easy to purchase underage sex.