Are we being fleeced?

No it’s not as long lasting as the legendary UN72 but then it weighs about 1/4 what that did.

It’s not quite so light when you factor in the increased weight of the crankset…

People often associate higher cost with quality. IME in the bike world you don’t pay for quality you pay for race/pro performance. Which is fine if you are racing and have a mechanic to service your bike after every ride.

Paying more for XTR XX etc. for some bit of kit is daft if you are looking for long life. That’s not what they are designed to do. Modern XTR mechs are not designed to be more durable than XT they are designed to be lighter, so are actually more fragile.

I also think that you hear negatice stories much more. If everyone on here posted a thread about every ride they went on and what didn’t brake then the board would crash. People don’t do it, what they do do is post about exceptions from the norm.

Clothing is the biggest pisstake as far as I’m concerned. My Decathlon and Aldi stuff is bombproof, whereas any branded stuff falls to pieces in a few months.

Mostly due to the rising cost of materials & unfavourable (for the UK) exchange rates.

This is a bit of a smokescreen IMO. Look at motorbikes, much more materials used, much more R&D involved, mostly made outside the UK yet nowhere near the level of inflation seen in bikes. You can bike a moto trials bike with Marzocchi forks for less than the cost of a push bike.

So we’re being lied to, and then fleeced.

The swines!

I’ve owned shimano equiped mountain bikes since 1988. I’ve never replaced an external bb, but I’ve replaced plenty of gritty square taper ones. personally I think for mid-top end components things have improved over the last 23 years.

In 1988 £400 (the eqivalent of £800 today) got me a rigid cro-mo frame, quil stem, shimano lx.

That will buy me a rockhoper comp these days -SLX, Avid disks and rockshox forks.

This is a bit of a smokescreen IMO. Look at motorbikes, much more materials used, much more R&D involved, mostly made outside the UK yet nowhere near the level of inflation seen in bikes.

But an extra pound on a moto fork isn’t gonna get it bad reviews in the media. Bikes haven’t really changed in years. MTB feels the need to reinvent itself every season. MTB stuff needs to be longer travel/lighter/stiffer/more adjustable/blinger/faster shifting year on year (apparently). If people are prepared to pay for that then don’t expect much to change soon.

Not that I’m defending the prices, they are mental.

I got flamed a few months back for

Ignore. Mother friggin Theresa would get flamed on internet forums. The thing with the general public is that a portion of them are mental or stupid – except for you and me, and I have my doubts about you. 😉

Clothing is the biggest pisstake as far as I’m concerned.

+1, the endura and troy lee stuff I’ve had has been shite quality.

Has anyone used those B’Twin rain pants and are they any good?

Anyone got a HT2 that’s lasted as long?

Then:

1989 model Shimano 105 in my Road Bike

Erm….

You’re talking about Shimano Hollowtech 2, right? The system that din’t appear until about 2006/7 on 105? Or are you talking about the square taper?

Soz, bit confuddled….

You’re not being fleeced: the pound is weaker, raw materials are getting more expensive, and demand in the UK and internationally is growing. All this means prices go up for you earning in GBP.

If you think product is over priced, walk away or look at second hand, there’s masses of gear on STW classifieds, I got good forks for £150.

What do people do to their HTII BBs?

I have 2 bikes, 2 XT HTII bbs been in there for over 3 years now, still smooth! Maybe you should all try some maintenance sometime ❓

TheDoctor – Member

What do people do to their HTII BBs?

I have 2 bikes, 2 XT HTII bbs been in there for over 3 years now, still smooth! Maybe you should all try some maintenance sometime

What maintenance can you do on a HTII BB?

10yr old XTR rear mech. Still works. I’ve lost count over the years atthe amount of bikeshops who have said its toast and wise to replace.

Everytime they’ve said it I’ve removed them on the ‘to shop with again list’.

The biggest rip off is clothing. Endura spring readily to mind. Ontop of this are gloves. Absolutely appalling.

“Are we being fleeced….”

Sounds like someone is about to discover the virtues of singlespeed. 🙂

I don’t think we’re being fleeced. We’re wanting lighter and better each year, and the cost of that has to be paid.

But also like any industry, any time there is an item that is going to be bought on looks rather than function, there will be a premium that the foolish fashion conscious will be willing to pay.

Don’t forget this forum is largely populated with moany middle aged IT consultants with too much spare cash who feel the need to change bits of their bike all the time, replace things that could just be serviced and buy different tyres because they slid out on wet roots on their last tyre so it must be the tyre’s fault and not theirs.

I bought a Stumpy M2 in 1997 for £1100 that had V brakes and crappy elastomer forks, which was still going until I wrapped it round a 4×4 last year.

For the same price in 2007 I bought a Giant Trance with full suspension and hydraulic disc brakes, so I’d call that progress. I still have it though I might treat myself to a better fitting frame sometime soon.

– Anti-ageing creams.
– Hi-fi.
– Mountain bikes.

bought a Stumpy M2 in 1997 for £1100 that had V brakes and crappy elastomer forks, which was still going until I wrapped it round a 4×4 last year.

Sorry I was genuinely with you until that line. It makes you sound like a holier-than-you type.

Far worse than rampant spenders. Like I said. My cranks were bought new by me in 2002, the pedals until recently were 4yr old DX’s. I only retired them as I saw some as new DX’s for sale cheap on here.

My stems are over a few years old as I tend to stick to the same lengths and my headset (Chris King) has been in every frame bar the latest that I’ve ever owned.

What I do like doing is new frames and forks though- why not?

I think there are some things out there that are really good value for money though. My Dialled Alpine frame for one. Well designed and built IMO.

The raw material prices thing is rubbish. Aluminium is around £1500 a tonne and is actually lower than it was in 2006 ( Aluminium per tonne ) there is around 2kg of aluminium in a frame and around 1kg in a chainset. That’s less than £2 worth. So even if aluminium doubles in price then it should only add a couple of quid to the cost of a frame.

Now I know that certain alloys of aluminium cost more, and there are off cuts and tooling costs etc, but blaming raw material prices for an XT chainset going from £120 to £190 is just dishonest when there is so little metal involved.

The big price hike was caused by the pound falling considerably against the Yen, weren’t it? But hazzunt it ‘recovered’ somewhat? Yet prices are still at inflated levels?

Yes, we are being fleeced. No question…

What maintenance can you do on a HTII BB?

Take them out of the frame, clean all the crap out of the frame. Pump new grease into the bearings with a syringe or something. re fit. 5 minute job.

We’re wanting lighter and better each year, and the cost of that has to be paid.

Speak for yourself. I’d sacrifice a few hunded grams to save a few hundred quid any day.

No the pound is still s1it against the yen (123 to 1 today). A few years back it was nearer 200 to 1. It’s good if you sell plenty to Japan ( we do) but not so good for mountain bikers.

Maybe the price of Japanese and Far East stuff is ridiculous, but the Chorus groupset I bought recently has fallen back in price by 40% from the peak of the euro woes.

In a very narrow range of products, top-end stuff and HT2 bottom brackets, yes the value for money and longevity is pretty crap. For most stuff, no it’s not.

You can now get great disc brakes for much cheaper than the old temperamental systems of yore, off-road hub gears, tyres that strike a balance between working well and not wearing out, cheap Taiwanese finishing kit that looks good, night lights that burn holes in the fabric of the sky for the price of an old set of 5W halogens. I could go on.

Also the RRPs people are quoting (e.g. £190 for an XT crankset) aren’t paid by most purchasers. Whereas we used to go to the only bike shop in town or mail order from the back of mags, there’s now a tonne of cheap bike parts, worldwide, at our disposal. Quite frankly, we’ve never had it so good…

Take them out of the frame, clean all the crap out of the frame. Pump new grease into the bearings with a syringe or something. re fit. 5 minute job.

HT2 b/bs don’t have grease ports. If you have to service a non-serviceable product to get it to last, it isn’t fit for purpose.

HT2 b/bs don’t have grease ports

That is correct, but you can take the plastic bearing cover out and do it that way.

That is correct, but you can take the plastic bearing cover out and do it that way.

It’s not designed to be removed, and breaks easily. That was my point – we’re having to service a non-serviceable product.

retro83 – Member
What maintenance can you do on a HTII BB?

It’s more preventative measures than maintenance I find, mainly down to correct fitting, checking/readjusting the preload after a few rides and keeping the degreasing solvents and high pressure water away from the bb area.

To be honest, many cyclists have a shocking level of mechanical sensitivity/skill, many of the ‘problems’ are caused by ineptitude and misapplication – no two ways about.

It’s not designed to be removed

Says who? Shimano?

, and breaks easily

It’s all in the wrist action 😉

I’ve done this for ages, just because it says it’s not to be dissassembled doesn’t mean it can’t. I remember my dad saying i’ve not to take his lawn mower to bits 😳

How simple do you lot need it!

Take care of your kit and it will continue to take care of you.

Use a tiny bit of common sense buying first generation mechanical parts (they will be fresh from testing, so need another generation to iron out problems).

Don’t but expensive components if you think they look after themselves, they take more care.

When you compare like with like… In my garage is a 1991 Carrera Krakatoa, which was a fairly decent £350 rigid atb in its day. And also, til recently was a 2008 Carrera Kraken, which was a fairly decent £350 hardtail. Now the Kraken had some parts which wore faster- suspension is more complicated than rigid! But it’s a far, far better bike. If you took it back in time to 1991 it’d have been much like delivering a hoverbike to us today.

xiphon – Member

My ‘6 inch travel All-Mountain bicycle’ (so it sounds like the latest 2012 marketing!) is a Patriot ’00 frame… and Fox 36 ’05 forks…

My ‘top-of-the-range race-ready hand-built full suspension DH bicycle’ is a 222 ’02, with Boxxer Race ’04s. Brakes are Hope M6/M4 from ’03 IIRC.

…So basically as good as a Five and a 224 (unless you’re a world champ bicycle ninja)… but probably £5k cheaper?

A good way to save money is to be deluded about the kit you have.

Says who? Shimano?

Yes. They’re the people who made it. If they say that it’s not user-serviceable then it shouldn’t need servicing. The product is not up to the job.

A good way to save money is to be deluded about the kit you have.

A good way to save money is not to be deluded about the shiny new kit available 😉

Strong,light,cheap………pick any two.

dunno.some stuff is bonkers money.but you can still get downtube levers,bar end shifters for about 50/60 pounds,DA7800-7900 stuff.
you can still get 5-6 sp freewheels.but they cost about as much as a 7-8 sp cassette.
you can still get hardtails with rigid forks pretty cheap.or cheap forks,toras,sektors,etc.they’re not crap,they are compared to something higher up though.
AFAIK all shimano bb (ht2) are the same.so a 10pound tiagra/deore one is pretty cheap.
you can get sd5 for 13eu,levers for about 12eu.that’s cheap.
deore discs are cheap.
some nice hardtail frames to be had pretty cheap.
plenty of decent hubs,rims if you don’t have to have stans-hope,ck,whatever.
As somebody wisely said above,buy wisely,don’t buy first,don’t buy bling.it’s as expensive as you want it be.
but I think we generally want things to be expensive,they seem more iomportant that way.

The relative cost of bike stuff has gone up loads, yet the actual quality gone down, in the 20+ years I’ve bin MTBing.

I have stop here. As it’s just plain wrong. Compare the prices of bikes 10-15 years ago and see what you can get for this price nowadays. I remember I 2003-2004 I bought my frame second hand from the LBS owner for what was at the time a bargainastic 8000 Fr about 1300 of today currency (€). For this sort of money you could have a brand new FS bikes from kona last year (the kona tanuki) that works better, weight less and which shock is actually of higher quality than the one on the Rocky mountain. You could probably check the prices of a 2003 stinky and compare it to the price of a 2011 tanuki. You would still get better value for money in 2011 than you did in 2004.

Are we being fleeced?

as a workshop manager at a very busy bike shop belonging to the UK’s largest “quality cycle retailer” (hint: not Halfords)

I would say from my first-hand experience that companies have definitely cut quality control in their off-shore manufacturing in the past 1-2 seasons

in the workshop we PDI (pre-delivery inspection) all bikes we receive from our suppliers, we have to make sure these bikes meet British Standards for road-safety

we have noticed recently that the quality of wheels on complete bikes is decreasing, both on entry level bikes and mid range bikes from all brands

this requires additional mechanic time to true the wheel, before the PDI is complete

I’ve had brand new boxed bikes from “big brands”, where the wheel rim is damaged beyond repair as the spoke nipple was ripped through the rim wall by the wheel building machine, or the freehub body is so wobbly that the gears cannot be indexed.

other items we are having increasing problems with are poor quality gear derailleurs (from both Shimano and SRAM), poor quality gear / brake cabling, bad disc brake bleeds (on all brands) and the poor quality of unbranded components including v-brakes, mechanical disc brakes, wheel hubs, bottom brackets and finishing kit

basically where the bike company has cut costs by using cheaper parts, to maintain the bike’s pricepoint

the manufacturer lowers their QC (which is a genuine cost) assuming the bike shop will pick up their slack

where a £450 bike would have had a shimano bottom bracket and shimano v-brake calipers in 2008, it now has an unbranded bottom bracket which goes rough before the FOC (4-6 week first free service) and constant rubbing from the brake pads on the rims as the unbranded v-brake calipers cannot be balanced using the spring’s screw adjusters

its a casualty of increasing costs for manufacturers, and the reduced buying power of British Sterling

there are very good value, tough parts on the market (like Shimano SLX) and it really pays to be a smart shopper when choosing kit, use the correct tools (how many home mechanics have facing tools, a torque wrench and actually follow service intervals for suspension parts?)

esher i didn’t took that into account. Tis is true, but from my point of view in cheap bike and what I call super market brands (such as specialized and giant). For example, scott bike RARELY need more than screwing the peadls in, and putting the seat post and the stem. I have noticed (and as you actually work in a bike shop you would have too), the packing on a 2000€ road bike is much better than a 450€ commuter. Problem in brake are from my experience only in Avid.
But I still think that for mid range mountain bikes (about 2000€) you have much more bang for you buck than you use too 10-15 years ago.

It makes you sound like a holier-than-you type.

dunno what you mean but i’m not religious. The trance has lasted well too and most bits that originally came with that, apart from the ISIS BB that didn’t last long, are on my commuter bike now. the bits that didn’t break in the crash on my Stumpy are now on my gf’s commuter too, except for the crankset as I couldn’t find 5 hole chainrings that weren’t stupidly expensive.

If you have to service a non-serviceable product to get it to last, it isn’t fit for purpose.

ARGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG if you go downhill with steps on it with an XT you cant say it’s not fit for purpose as you should use saints. It’s mtbing FFS nothing is going to be fit for purpose but the heaviest DH stuff. I can get as much life out of my HTII than I could do out of my HTI. And they are both taking as much dust. Explain that to me.

To be honest, many cyclists have a shocking level of mechanical sensitivity/skill, many of the ‘problems’ are caused by ineptitude and misapplication – no two ways about.

Amen to that. The number of people with creaky squeezy bike that complain about bike is just ridiculous. If people were maintaining the cars the same way they did with bike, cars would be disposable too.