Any fluent Welsh speakers, I need a favour

I’m creating a graphic about use of space, in English and Welsh. One of the elements is a “Shared Use Space”, ie a path used by cyclists, pedestrians, etc. For the translation I have “Gofod Defnydd a Rennir” which is too long for the caption box. Can it be sensibly shortened? I can shorten the English to “Shared Space” or even something else, if that helps. Would “Gofod a Rennir” be correct? Diolch

I don’t speak Welsh. But I lived in Aberystwyth/Aberaeron for seven years which was long enough to realise that word for word translation isn’t good enough and you need to reformulate.

I googled: “llwybr troed a rennir ” which gave me this plan:

https://www.merthyr.gov.uk/media/6699/p001_03_85_02-a4054_ave-de-clichy_public-consultation-welsh.pdf

which has all the translations you need without making people think you’re talking about office space. It won’t fit in your boxes though.

MrsL isn’t fluent but has studied for a few years and has just completed a masters in planning in Cardiff.
She suggests: “Best short translation would be ‘Lle rhannu’ which is shared space or Lle cyfran.”

Hope this helps but get it checked by a professional translator!

“Llwybr rhannu” Shared path
“Lle rhannu” shared space/place

Also depends where in Cymru you are, in the South there are many dialect differences, to the proper North

Good luck!
Very good friends are as (N) Welsh as they come* and they say that it’s a very hard language with differences between N & S.
Written is even more difficult than spoken apparently!

* They pretty much only speak Welsh in their house but when it comes to official written Welsh documents they always read the English version on the back!!

Hope this helps but get it checked by a professional translator!

Just check you don’t get their out of office reply! This is one of my all time favourite news stories.

“I am not in the office at the moment. Send any work to be translated”.

The welsh language is no respecter of caption boxes 🙂

at least you’re not making interpretation panels of Icelandic volcanos

Just to throw a spanner in the works, “shared space” is not recommended

‘Shared space’ an unhelpful phrase – CIHT

🤣 @sharkbait, that’s pretty much us…

Thanks all. I appreciate the issues with variation in the language. A place I used to work we had the translations done by a language professor at Cardiff uni and we still got people complaining it wasn’t right. Hopefully “Lle rhannu” will do it, I’ll put that on for now while I check. Its a digital label so if anyone complains its very easy to edit

Also why don’t any fonts have a “ŷ”? You’ve made a y and a ^ but you not stuck them together

Just to throw a spanner in the works, “shared space” is not recommended

Interesting point. Having read the link I can’t say that I agree. I much prefer shared space to any of the options they suggest

I think the point they raising is that pedestrians and bikes should ALWAYS take precedence over motorised vehicles. THere’s a “shared space” through Poynton near me and it’s more or less a horrific free for all rather than the idyll I think they’d hoped to create. I’ll give you three guesses why….

In other Welsh news, this turned up in Coventry recently.

Can’t help with the Welsh (I’m barely fluent in English).

Just check you don’t get their out of office reply! This is one of my all time favourite news stories.

“I am not in the office at the moment. Send any work to be translated”.

I can’t not mention this if we’re discussing Welsh translation stories: Ambulance… Ambiwlans – Has dumbing down gone too far? (Pistonheads)

Mae “lle rhannu” neu “llwybr rhannu” yn ddigon cywir.
“Lle i’w rannu” yn well.

Just check you don’t get their out of office reply! This is one of my all time favourite news stories.

A good friend of mine visited Wales a few years ago. He came back telling me about this MASSIVE beach they had, it was signposted for bloody miles! I asked what it was called. “Traeth Beach.”

Just to throw a spanner in the works, “shared space” is not recommended

…according to a report, from one specific group. I also agree with the previous poster that they’re probably well intentioned, but wrong. The suggested alternatives are just meaningless jargon, and very confusing.

In the specific case of Poynton, there’s nothing in principle wrong with the term “shared space” (it doesn’t automatically imply equality, or that no-one might have precedence over anyone else), but it clearly doesn’t apply there so they should have thought up a different name for that scheme in the first place!

There’s a “proper” shared space near me – not even any actual pavements – which was very controversial obviously but has proved successful I think (even Clarkson was forced to u-turn his opinion on it!)
The usual reaction upon driving up to it the first time is utter bewilderment – but in 99.99% of motorists the result of this is slowing right down & paying a huge amount of care/attention!
https://www.kentonline.co.uk/ashford/news/mocked-by-clarkson-and-comedians-but-has-it-been-a-disaste-276289/

nothing to do with the OP of course, but interesting!

and it’s more or less a horrific free for all rather than the idyll I think they’d hoped to create

Indeed. And the road surface looks like it would be the slipperiest surface known to man in the wet so I always expect to crash when I ride through there (I haven’t yet)

He came back telling me about this MASSIVE beach they had, it was signposted for bloody miles! I asked what it was called. “Traeth Beach.”

🤣

Can I piggyback on this. Love this Pendevig track – but can any native speakers give me a gist of what it’s about?

I can’t not mention this if we’re discussing Welsh translation stories: Ambulance… Ambiwlans – Has dumbing down gone too far? (Pistonheads)

It’s the Pistonheads ‘Is Crown Race included?’ thread!

Can I piggyback on this. Love this Pendevig track – but can any native speakers give me a gist of what it’s about?

Not a fluent speaker by any means but I understood enough to know the bloke is professing his love for her and she’s telling him how much she hates him, a la Fairytale of New York. But the poem bit at the end (which I loved) reveals that she always loved him, as she’s crying while sewing his old shirts. That’s what I got anyway, caveat emptor. It might be a christmas song lol. Very good, though.

OP – as others have said, llywbr rhannu would get the job done. Rhannu ceir is carsharing, for e.g.

Mae “lle rhannu” neu “llwybr rhannu” yn ddigon cywir.
“Lle i’w rannu” yn well.

Dwi’n cytuno.

Mae “lle rhannu” neu “llwybr rhannu” efallai’n golygu llwybr sydd wedi ei rhannu.

</rusty Welsh>

OP: ‘gofod’ is the wrong sort of space – it’s the one with stars and spaceships in.
‘Lle’ is a better word (area / place / location) or ‘llwybr’ (=path).

I think that ‘Rhannu’ can also be translated as ‘divided’ so might be ambiguous if you’re trying to convey that it specifically *isn’t* a divided place, but a place for ‘dividing’ (i.e. sharing) which is what dafydd17’s comment was about:

‘Lle i rhannu’ ~~ Space to share.

(I wouldn’t say lle i’w rhannu – I would translate that as something like: ‘A place where [something refered to previously] is shared’, but I’m very rusty.)

You could say something like ‘llwybr cymysg’ (=mixed path)

ETA: You need to translate the concept, rather than the words

Very good friends are as (N) Welsh as they come* and they say that it’s a very hard language

It’s really not. I mean, any language you don’t speak is hard, but there are far harder ones out there.

Google Translate also offers llwybr ar y cyd meaning something like ‘united path’, since rennir seems to mean divided which is quite literally the exact opposite of what you want to achieve, and would not require a sign 🙂

OP: ‘gofod’ is the wrong sort of space – it’s the one with stars and spaceships in.

That would be brilliant on a sign. 😀

A good friend of mine visited Wales a few years ago. He came back telling me about this MASSIVE beach they had, it was signposted for bloody miles! I asked what it was called. “Traeth Beach.”

My family are Welsh but don’t speak the language. My brother at some point on a drive up to North Wales commented that there were a lot of hotels in the Gwesty chain, according to the ‘Gwesty Hotel’ signposts he kept seeing.

I like llwbyr cymysg the most. Also, isn’t Ffordd more like ‘way’ rather than specifically a road? So, maybe you could use that : ffordd cymysg.

Rhannu (rannir) is also used to mean divide by in a maths sense (naw rhannu tri yn hafal i dri, 9/3=3) but definitely means share too.

If I was riding down a path and the sign said “llwybr cymysg”, I’d expect it to change from tarmac to gravel halfway down 😉

In other Welsh news, this turned up in Coventry recently.

Surely if it’s in Coventry it should just be blank?

‘gofod’ is the wrong sort of space – it’s the one with stars and spaceships in.

^ That was/is my firm belief, but I see ‘Rhannu gofod â …’ has made it into the Welsh translation of the Highway Code as a translation for ‘sharing space with …’

Rheol/rule 63

Rhannu (rannir) is also used to mean divide by in a maths sense (naw rhannu tri yn hafal i dri, 9/3=3) but definitely means share too.

My daughter said this too so yeah.

or llwybr Cyffredinol which means ‘general (use) path’
or llwybr Sawl defnyddiwr – several users path

Or, try these guys at Aber Uni:
https://www.aber.ac.uk/en/cgg/translation-and-support/translation/

Still favouring llwybr rhannu as a shorthand way of putting the OPs llwybr defnydd a rennir. Also, the llwybr Mawddach is signed ‘mynediad a bawb’ (access for all) which carries a slightly different meaning but might work?

I’m creating a graphic about use of space, in English and Welsh. One of the elements is a “Shared Use Space”, ie a path e

Is it a space, or a path?

Multi-use space = Man aml-ddefnydd (example)
Multi-use path = Llwybr aml-ddefnydd (example)

These aren’t subject to north/south differences.

I applaud everyone’s efforts, but I’m afraid they’re all wrong to varying degrees.

Gofod Defnydd a Rennir = space of use that is shared
Gofod a Rennir = space that is shared
llwybr troed a rennir = footpath that is shared
Lle rhannu = sharing place
Lle cyfran = place of proportion
Llwybr rhannu = path of sharing, or dividing path
Lle rhannu = place of sharing
llwybr sydd wedi ei rhannu = path that has been shared
Lle i rhannu = place for sharing
Lle i’w rannu = place to be shared
llwbyr cymysg = mixed path (this is the best of the bunch)
ffordd cymysg = mixed road
llwybr Cyffredinol = general path
llwybr Sawl defnyddiwr = path of many users

Its a digital label so if anyone complains its very easy to edit

Regardless of whether people complain, I don’t think you want to be wrong. People will notice your (or your client’s) lack of taking the matter seriously.

Llwybyr aml-ddefnidd is how I’d translate the phrase. I think I’d also accept Llwybyr cymysg.

Interesting to see how many different suggestions we’ve seen in this thread. Just goes to show how difficult it can be to translate a common phrase.

Yes, partly because English can be so economical and we condense things to put on signs because it saves space.

and also to a large extent, translation is a very difficult task no matter the source / target language, which is why the rise of “auto-translation” servies is not great as it means it’s harder for professional translators when every one goes for the free version, even though the output might well be rubbish

and also to a large extent, translation is a very difficult task no matter the source / target language, which is why the rise of “auto-translation” servies is not great as it means it’s harder for professional translators when every one goes for the free version, even though the output might well be rubbish

Hmm, yes, but auto translation services are pretty good now. They are AI-driven based on the same text in multiple languages. They’ve improved markedly over the years too as they learn. When translating a common language say French into English, I find it hard to fault the English but then again there may be nuances in the French that I am missing.

They are always worse with less common languages, because there’s less stuff out there to work with, but even they have improved loads. I think the issue in this case is that the original text is a sign, not part of some text that AI can extract meaning from.

it’s harder for professional translators when every one goes for the free version

For most people with most tasks there’s no way it’s practical or affordable to hire a professional for some small job every now and then, so it’s Google Translate or nothing. I don’t think people are using Google Translate for novels to save some cash.

Actually that gives me an idea….. 🙂

Shared use space – Defnydd yr ardal wedi ei rhannu.

 I don’t think people are using Google Translate for novels to save some cash.

I helped run a french conversation club for a while, befpore the pandemic. We once had an author ask us to review the french translation of his book – quite apart from the fact that it was a self published diatribe of unbelievable drivel in dire need of professional editing, the auto-translation was horrendous – and that’s from me as an english person reading french.

Actually, I think the “self published” bit may explain the “dire need of professional editing”, I reckon i was turned down by everony how looked at it

surely this has to be the thread of the week?

I had a chat with chatGPT in Welsh the other day. Fair play to them, they were a very well spoken young AI, I was very impressed. First time I’ve ever talked to an AI in Welsh, so that was nice.

surely this has to be the thread of the week?

sgwrs ar-lein yr wythnos

(Apologies in advance for the Google translate)