surfer – Member
And he seems to be the “darling” of the BBC and whilst he is a nasty piece of work the BBC reaches more people than almost anything else in the UK and nobody would claim he was representative however the alternatives unelected groups referred to above are hardly representative either.

What’s your point, caller? That there’s not really anyone who can speak for Islam as a whole? Congratulations.

Fair enough Lifer 🙄 It does make imans against terror rather meaningless and unrepresentative also, wouldnt you agree?

If Islam is bothered about its image in the West then it needs to be more active in improving that image. If Muslims aren’t bothered about what non-Muslims think then that’s fair enough of course, more power to their elbow. But it seems short-sighted to bleat on about “irrational fear” if the only embassadors to the faith everyone else notices are terrorists. That’s not irrational fear; it’s misplaced perhaps, ignorant even, but it’s pretty rational if that’s all people are seeing. (And of course, that could well be a failing of the ones doing the perceiving.)

Sounds like you’re blaming Muslims for the fact that the media always portrays them negatively, rather than blaming the media.

Why don’t the media report on it, incidentally? Are they not bothered, or are they not allowed?

The media narrative which sells newspapers is that Muslims are the ‘other’ – they are different and scary and full of hate for us and our western values. Anything that doesn’t fit into that narrative doesn’t get airtime/column inches, basically.

I don’t think the Press are anti Islam any more than they were anti IRA, or recently anti UKIP, they have their little biases from time to time if they are given cause.

I do however feel remorse for what happens at times to Muslims over here at a personal level as demonstrated to a prospective son in law when he had the gall to sit with his back pack on a pile of his luggage waiting to be met at Charing Cross, what happened to him was probably what that unfortunate Brazilian lad tried to avoid and ended up being shot for it.

So it’s not just the Press that are prejudiced against Religious or Racial Types. Then again he might have been a Hindu, how were they to know, it wasn’t writ large on his back pack.

But why is it happening? Well we’ll soon not be permitted to know exactly since the Chilcott enquiry isn’t going to show who possibly the real criminal in all this is.

As to the school thing I’m against any religion being forced on kids other than that which has been the status quo for centuries here and is easily ignored without fear of death or honour killing.

If a multi national muslim task force were to say attack and depose Mugabe, then leave, I don’t think I’d be headed out there with a group of Christian soldiers hell bent on jihad, holy war, or whatever, it just wouldn’t happen.

Islam sadly is the religion most likely to encourage war on its behalf, that is a fact we can either appease, or ignore at our peril imv, I don’t think there is another doctrine quite like it, so we should be on our guard however unpleasant it ends up being, but it doesn’t make what happens to individuals at times any less unpleasant.

I don’t think the Press are anti Islam any more than they were anti IRA, or recently anti UKIP, they have their little biases from time to time if they are given cause.

You don’t think the Daily Mail, Daily Star/Daily Express and The Sun are anti-Islam?

[And in what way were the press Anti-UKIP by the way? They gave them a ludicrously out-of-proportion amount of free advertising.]

Islam sadly is the religion most likely to encourage war on its behalf

So what’s our excuse?

surfer – Member

Fair enough Lifer It does make imans against terror rather meaningless and unrepresentative also, wouldnt you agree?

I wasn’t referring to a specific group in my ‘google imams against terror’ post, rather the number of results of different imams/muslims/groups denouncing terrorism.

grum – Member
“Islam sadly is the religion most likely to encourage war on its behalf”

So what’s our excuse?

C’mon grum, it’s never holy war when we do it. Even when our leaders say it is.

Sounds like you’re blaming Muslims for the fact that the media always portrays them negatively, rather than blaming the media.

I’m not blaming anyone, and I thought I’d been careful enough in my wording to make that clear but evidently not.

Whether Islam being treated with suspicion or worse by some non-Muslims is the fault of Islam itself, its practitioners, the media, confirmation bias in the observer, or good old-fashioned racism, I couldn’t begin to speculate. There’s almost certainly room for improvement at all levels though.

For those who claim not to be frightened by either Christianity, the Jewish faith or Islam, I suggest reading Leviticus from the Bible and the verses in the Koran concerning non Muslims.

I’m not going to look at Leviticus if it’s going to frighten me.

I’m not blaming anyone, and I thought I’d been careful enough in my wording to make that clear but evidently not.

Not when you say stuff like this Cougar. Seems pretty clear who you’re blaming TBH.

Regardless of everyone else’s beliefs or efforts, Islam seems to be making a fair fist of demonising itself in our society at the moment. When it condemns terrorism across the board, renounces Sharia law, stops persecuting its own womenfolk, and promotes blanket tolerance towards non-Muslims, then it can come and play with the other children again.

“the treatment of women restricting their rights is not religious but culturally-based.” This is an argument I’ve heard a lot. However on my limited travels in maybe half a dozen different muslim ccountries and Kashmir I’ve never seen it. Also if choice is involved, I’ve always been fascinated by how in some countries all the women seem to make the same choices about their attire.

As someone who has grown up around different types of Muslims from many different countries and counts many Muslims as good friends – many far more like family, I have had a lot of exposure to Islamic and cultural perspectives, values and customs. They are not the same, they are not homogenous and religion and culture can be seen as different but not isolated things. It’s also worth remembering that causation and correlation are not the same thing.

If Islam is bothered about its image in the West then it needs to be more active in improving that image.

That’s a good point – maybe the CEO of Islam could issue a press release and then appoint a rebranding subcommittee from the board of directors.

Oh and Junky +100

I really did phrase that spectacularly badly. Sorry.

The key word there was “seems” (and this is the second time I’ve tried to clarify that). And it does seem to be; those are the impressions I get. If there is a fluffy side to Islam then it’s not as readily apparent; as religions go it comes across as one of the more inflexible ones. There doesn’t appear to be a lot of wiggle room like there is with, say, modern Christianity, where people can go to church for Christmas mass and forget about it for the other 364 days of the year. I don’t think I’ve ever encountered anyone who would define themselves as slightly Muslim.

Now, my perception could be way off. And that, as I said, could be my own failing, or the fault of the media, or the fault of the religion itself. I live in an area with an above average Asian population and even then I really know comparatively little about the culture religion, so it must be even more impenetrable to the UKIP-voting middle-class middle-Englanders.

Farage-a-like makes spectacular U-turn 😀

I don’t think I’ve ever encountered anyone who would define themselves as slightly Muslim.

I have certainly met semi-lapsed Muslims.

Asked how important religion was to them 78% of British Muslims said very important, but 48% of them also said they never attended a mosque, with another 6% saying they only attended for special occassions.[/b]

NOP Poll of British Muslims

I don’t think I’ve ever encountered anyone who would define themselves as slightly Muslim.
I have certainly met semi-lapsed Muslims.

Me too. They definitely exist!

That’s a really interesting read Ernie, thanks.

They definitely exist!

I don’t doubt they exist, I’ve just never knowingly met one. I’ve met people who have renounced Islam completely though (but not many, I can think of two offhand).

Course, it’ll not be that obvious when you meet a slightly-muslim or an ex-muslim, unless they have it on a t-shirt.

Can I request a “lapsed atheist” T shirt?
😀

I’ve just never knowingly met one.

Perhaps they are reluctant to let you know because of how they perceive your attitude to be ?

I encourage people of different cultures/nationalities/religions to talk to me about their culture/countries/religions because I genuinely find it fascinating. And when you show interest it’s surprising how much people like that and want to tell you about their culture/countries/religions.

I really did phrase that spectacularly badly. Sorry.

The key word there was “seems” (and this is the second time I’ve tried to clarify that). And it does seem to be; those are the impressions I get. If there is a fluffy side to Islam then it’s not as readily apparent; as religions go it comes across as one of the more inflexible ones. There doesn’t appear to be a lot of wiggle room like there is with, say, modern Christianity, where people can go to church for Christmas mass and forget about it for the other 364 days of the year. I don’t think I’ve ever encountered anyone who would define themselves as slightly Muslim.

Now, my perception could be way off. And that, as I said, could be my own failing, or the fault of the media, or the fault of the religion itself. I live in an area with an above average Asian population and even then I really know comparatively little about the culture religion, so it must be even more impenetrable to the UKIP-voting middle-class middle-Englanders.

The focus of your commentary has changed to you from The Muslims and The Islam.

And when you show interest it’s surprising how much people like that and want to tell you about their culture/countries/religions.

Doesn’t work so well when you look like you’re desperately planning escape routes, looking for wires sticking out of their bags and muttering panic stricken prayers to yer maker

konabunny – Member
The focus of your commentary has changed to you from The Muslims and The Islam.

Perhaps the term should be Muslamic? Yes! 😈 Waited 7 pages to say this … 😆

Oh ya btw if you ever lived in a Muslamic country then you should know that they practically anti all other belief systems. i.e. opposite to yours. I used to live there I know and can’t be arsed to debate about it anymore. A waste of time really so just have machete style conflict will do. Plenty of zombie maggots there when religion is concerned. 😈

that’s not what I heard from their appointed spokesmen on the radio and I don’t recall any other media saying much different at the time.

I think you need to look at the media here rather than Muslims.
I have explained

Why don’t the media report on it, incidentally? Are they not bothered, or are they not allowed?

Have you read a newspaper ? The DM – really you need to ask?

don’t think I’ve ever encountered anyone who would define themselves as slightly Muslim.

I know one who would describe himself thus but the reality is he is a non Muslim too scared to tell his folks

What exactly is wrong with being anti islam? I am also anti all the other religions too, however that doesn’t make me a racist. Why do some people insist that religon and race are inseparable when they clearly are. I think playing the race card is a cheap way out of justifying an unjustified position. Reason and religion are irreconcilable and thats the issue I have with it.

Dont forget, the fundamentalists (Muslim, Christian etc) are chopping each other to bits in quite a few contrys in Africa at the moment.

Religion – causing problems since…………well, since their imaginary wizard made the planet.

Dont forget, those old biddies who make tea in the church on sunday support an organisation who has followers that think its OK to stone gay people to death.

Where’d the ‘race card’ come into it?

well..

for all my selfless and vehement defence of Islam on here the last couple of days, the fella in the filling station just scowled at me like Jihad couldn’t possibly come soon enough..

Suicide bombing, woman stoning **** **** 🙁

Here are the typical responses of singletracks racists, that I see in threads like these. Oh and….IBTGL (In before the Godwins Law).

“I’m not a racist, I’m a race realist. I believe that races are all different and multiculturalism is a bad thing”

“I’m not a Neo-Nazi, I just don’t believe in the Zionist propaganda about Hitler being evil”

“I’m not Islamophobic, I just don’t think that Islam has a place in the Western World”

“I’m not an antisemite, I don’t hate semites.”

Funny, isn’t it.

Criticise Christianity and you get accused of bullying.

Criticise Islam and you get accused of racism.

Hitchens criticised Islam but one could never really accuse him of racism, maybe you can have a think as to why that is. Is it because, perhaps, that he tended not to attack Muslims in general but the religion and it’s Imams instead? He also attacked Christianity, he was clearly a man who understood that there was really no difference between the types of people that called themselves Christian and those that called themselves Muslim. Instead Muslims and Christians are simply opposite sides of a terrible, terrible coin.

According to many enlightened left wing bigots, if you have a genuine concern with Islam it can only have come about through ignorance and not mingling enough. If this blinkered narrow mindlessness wasn’t sad enough they then award themselves the right to throw their worst possible insults at the those who don’t share their opinion. Predictable but very stupid.

Most people don’t have genuine or informed concern though, do they? That’s clearly demonstrated by this thread (I’m a Hitchens fan btw).

enfht thank god you were wise enough to not fall into the trap of insulting those whose views you disagree with, a beacon to us all

As you just did everything you objected to it is another of those brilliant internet posts that could be satirical genius but is, sadly, hypocrisy/stupidity.

Criticise Islam and you get accused of racism.

I think it is the way you have done it*

You have conflated what Islam stands for and what a tiny minority of nutters do in it’s name and this is the reason you are getting grief IMHO. You do this whilst criticising the majority for not speaking out [ when our media gives them no voice and google will show they do]essentially you have created a straw man, of fear, and opposed that.

Like you i dislike all religions and i can dislike them for good reasons or for bad ones.
IMHO this is a bad one

Hate the terrorists not the religion.

* I am not accusing you of racism here though it can be read that way

I wish to see active discrimination against people who persecute, attack, stone, murder, masacre, alienate … others in the name of what is written in very old books. If people think my humanist attitude makes me anti-religious, racist, xenophobic, or antisemitic because the people doing it claim to be acting in the name of some God then so be it.

You have conflated what Islam stands for and what a tiny minority of nutters do in it’s name and this is the reason you are getting grief IMHO. You do this whilst criticising the majority for not speaking out [ when our media gives them no voice and google will show they do]essentially you have created a straw man, of fear, and opposed that.

I think you can critique Islam but not tar all Muslims with the same brush, which is the feeling that I get from this thread. I dislike the religion but in general don’t let that affect my day to day perceptions of Muslims.

Unfortunately the Koran does help enable a small band of nutters.