Sometimes some of the anti muslim thing is just that – Halal meat is one i tend to think is just anti muslim rhetoric. You are eating chickens industrial bred in pens they cannot move and then served to you in a bucket from an american company. You then want to discuss your heritage being ruined and animal welfare issue.. I dont believe you. Ditto schools some just use it as a rod to beat them

+1

Every group has their extremists; however wouldn’t most reputable groups do something about extremists who didn’t actually reflect their views rather than go “nowt to do with us guv,” maybe exercise their majority to try and persuade them that they’re not representative?

I imagine if I was a ‘moderate’ Muslim I’d probably get pretty pissed off about constantly being asked to prove I wasn’t an extremist and to condemn terrorism etc. I don’t recall anyone asking moderate Christians to condemn Anders Breivik.

I know it’s not quite the same because there is a reasonably prevalent strain of Islam that is quite extreme, but still…

Regardless of everyone else’s beliefs or efforts, Islam seems to be making a fair fist of demonising itself in our society at the moment. When it condemns terrorism across the board, renounces Sharia law, stops persecuting its own womenfolk, and promotes blanket tolerance towards non-Muslims, then it can come and play with the other children again.

Or perhaps…
– some people who are Muslims use Islam as an excuse for their own intolerance and narrow-mindedness which we are then particularly made aware of by the established media
– there is no singular ‘it’ any more than there is a singular Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Jewish or atheist ‘it’.
– more terrorism is perpetrated against Muslims than Muslims perpetrate against others but this isn’t brought to our attention
– most concepts in Sharia law are actually very simple, reasonable and have a lot in common with our own laws
– some Sharia laws are perverted by some people to assert control over others when that is not actually supported by Sharia law
– there is not really an ‘it’ which can condemn terrorism. Not one Muslim I know is supportive of terrorism
– Islam is actually more tolerant than most religions…
– the treatment of women restricting their rights is not religious but culturally-based.

Yunki YGM

Every group has their extremists; however wouldn’t most reputable groups do something about extremists who didn’t actually reflect their views rather than go “nowt to do with us guv,” maybe exercise their majority to try and persuade them that they’re not representative?

This is a load of ignorant **** that doesn’t merit a very articulate response. Islam is a religion followed by a billion people who speak hundreds of languages in every country on earth (with the possible exception of the Vatican). It’s not “a group”, it’s thousands of different factions and sects and organizations and mosque, and there is no leadership structure that can issue a press release on behalf of Teh Muslims.

Why won’t the Wee Frees denounce Anders Breivik? Why won’t Christians stop oppressing their womenfolk so that 50% of women in the US and UK aren’t sexually harassed or assaulted in their lives? Why won’t peaceful English people stand up and apologize for the Westboro Baptist Church?

See how easy and facile it is to make up these false premises?

Seems that bearing in mind the above comments a sensible position to take would be to want religion to have nothing to do with the education of children bearing in mind it’s inconsistent teaching, dubious moral value and potential for misinterpretation. I think the Catholic church is also under pretty tight scrutiny too, they even sacked their CEO (for health reasons), so it’s not just Islam. I had hoped that religion was behind us. I think what many fear but perhaps articulate poorly is the general regrowth of any religion as a force in society. Islam seems to be rising as does fundemetal christianity in reponse and I’d rather not be stuck in the bloody middle of two sets of loonies arguing over their imaginary friends.

So as muslims seem so peaceful,has there ever been a time when they haven’t been at war with each other or other religions, they just seem a very sensitive cult/belief

The deep thinkers always come out about midnight and show there sensitive side

Thank God I live in a mainly christian country where none of that shit ever happens

Peace be with you – a cultural reference no doubt lost on you

Every group has their extremists; however wouldn’t most reputable groups do something about extremists …………maybe exercise their majority to try and persuade them that they’re not representative?

In the case of “extremists” within Islam they often see other Muslims as both legitimate targets of violence and often a greater enemy than non-Muslims.

Al Qaeda for example have a policy of killing other Muslims because firstly they believe that violence is necessary to create the conditions of chaos, instability, and eventual overthrow of the existing order, and secondly, because the real enemy for them are the majority of Muslims whom they consider to be guilty of apostasy.

Wahhabism/Salafism considers any Muslim who doesn’t support strict fundamentalist sharia law to be an unbeliever or kafir under takfir.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Salafism

To these extremists a Muslim guilty of apostasy, ie, the majority of Muslims in their eyes, is worse than being a Christian or Jew. There is no death penalty for being a Christian or Jew but there is for apostasy.

So any Muslim trying to “persuade them that they’re not representative” are unlikely to succeed and more likely to be targeted. Haven’t you heard that Al Qaeda kills rather a lot of Muslims ?

So as muslims seem so peaceful,has there ever been a time when they haven’t been at war with each other or other religions, they just seem a very sensitive cult/belief

Bloody Muslims, they’re just as bad as those bleedin Christians. And as for the Jews – don’t get me started. Them and those Buddhists can piss right off with all their troublemaking. Course, if it weren’t for the Hindus and all their palaver, you wouldn’t even have to look past the Confucians and Sikhs for bad tempered and warlike. If if there’s one thing I can’t stand, it’s the bloody atheists pretending they’re any better than the rest of them – I mean, did you see what happened in the Soviet Union?

Still, I don’t mind the animists too much, but I’m probably a bit biased, being a Zoroastrian meself…

Every group has their extremists; however wouldn’t most reputable groups do something about extremists who didn’t actually reflect their views rather than go “nowt to do with us guv,” maybe exercise their majority to try and persuade them that they’re not representative?

Who are we talking about here, I couldn’t find the original post. Kind of looks like your describing Tony Blair and his friends leading us into Iraq and my subsequent response.

See how easy and facile it is to make up these false premises?

Except its not is it? There is a reasonable expectation that like minded people should condem those around them. For example British Muslims openly criticising the murderers of Lee Rigby. You may find a few words of condemnation if you look hard enough but hardly an outpouring.
If you cant see that Islam is a greater threat from all of the other “groups” that you list then you are naive. They all have their nutcases however few people live in fear of Sikhism for example.

And there we have it.. that is the net result of the demonisation in a nutshell

were you frightened of Muslims before 9/11?

How would that happen though?

When a little girl gets kidnapped, their parents come on the radio and plead with the kidnappers to send her home. Last time I heard a spokesman from a Blackburn mosque on the radio following some terrorist activity or other the gist of his sentiment was to distance them from ‘real’ Muslims. Which is a good start, but where’s the “so if you’re listening, please stop it”? Where’s the “so we’re talking with other Imams to try and root these people out of our communities”? Where’s the “we’re preaching to our flock that this is wrong”? And if they’re doing all those things then at the very least they need to work on their PR.

When a Christian person or extremist group performs an atrocity do we each personally as part of a global Christian community jump up and stride out into the world to calm everyone down and allay fears?

Do you?

Well, I don’t, because I’m not a Christian. But if someone was committing atrocities in my name then I’d like to think that I’d be doing whatever I could to get them to stop it. Seems like the decent, sensible thing to do to me.

Why won’t peaceful English people stand up and apologize for the Westboro Baptist Church?

Plenty do. People rally against their rallies these days. There was no funeral for Fred Phelps (as far as I know) due to their fear of protesters, as a random example.

So any Muslim trying to “persuade them that they’re not representative” are unlikely to succeed and more likely to be targeted. Haven’t you heard that Al Qaeda kills rather a lot of Muslims ?

That’s a very good point. But,

Islam is a religion followed by a billion people

A billion people follow Islam but, what, they’re all too scared of their own religion to speak out against the more extreme bits of it? Have we really got a situation where a billion people are all following a mob mind that many of them don’t actually fully believe in?

And there we have it.. that is the net result of the demonisation in a nutshell

were you frightened of Muslims before 9/11?

I’m not sure of the point you are trying to make. Are you saying Islam is “deomonised”? If so are you saying people are irrational who fear Islam and/or are you saying the demonisation is unfair?

Surfer – yes, yes and yes and emphatically **** yes with big fat hairy balls on!!

You can read back through the thread to find my exact stance on this with all points very clearly laid out

Cougar – I think that you’re kinda talking nonsense there a bit mate – when it all kicked off royally a few years back the Immams and mosques were doing precisely what you say they are not doing..

this is in danger of becoming an obtuse thread now

You can read back through the thread to find my exact stance on this

Fair enough Yunki I dont have time to follow it closely. You are wrong however there is nothing irrational about fearing Islam and ref your last point if they were they were doing it incredibly quietly.

surfer – Member

Are you saying Islam is “deomonised”? If so are you saying people are irrational who fear Islam and/or are you saying the demonisation is unfair?

I am.

Cougar – Moderator
A billion people follow Islam but, what, they’re all too scared of their own religion to speak out against the more extreme bits of it? Have we really got a situation where a billion people are all following a mob mind that many of them don’t actually fully believe in?

Really? There are plenty speaking out against it FFS.

Surfer – I disagree.. I think it’s lazy and ignorant to fear Islam, and irrational in the same way that it is irrational to fear spiders

Really? There are plenty speaking out against it FFS.

But they appear to be mainly outside the faith. Unless you are talking about Ayaan Hirsi Ali? Maybe she is just “lazy and ignorant! however she is under constant armed guard for the crime of apostasy.

You may find a few words of condemnation if you look hard enough but hardly an outpouring.

Utter utter BS /blind ignorance nearing racism and absolutely wrong

Will you avail yourself of the facts

https://www.google.co.uk/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=muslims%20condemn%20lee%20rigby%20murder

http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2013/may/26/muslim-community-responds-woolwich-killing

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/05/24/british-muslims-condemn-savage-attack-on-drummer-lee-rigby_n_3329691.html

I am not sure whether you believe that

If you cant see that Islam is a greater threat from all of the other “groups” that you list then you are naive. They all have their nutcases however few people live in fear of Sikhism for example.

Well if that does not prove my point that we have demonised them enough for us all to be terrified of them then what will

Out of interest what would your view be if a multi national force of Muslims was invading countries and then carrying out drone attacks on foreign lands — that us by the way- still we should be shit scared of the threat they pose us and they are the war crazy ones eh..PFFFt facts **** them I dont want them to get in the way of my rant

he very least they need to work on their PR.

You say this like you are some sort of expert on Muslims and what they do, What sort of access do yu think they have to media? Do you think after an attack the media
1. Knock on the door of a moderate typical Iman who will deplore the attack
2. Goes to finsd a loon who will rant about infidels?

Still that is there fault eh

if someone was committing atrocities in my name

They are not doing in the name of ordinary muslims – did you read ernies post at all?

A billion people follow Islam but, what, they’re all too scared of their own religion to speak out against the more extreme bits of it?

They do speak out in the mosques and their community events and withing their communities

unfortunately neither you nor the UK media attend these events nor reports on it

Its verging on lunacy [ and it is a whopping lie] to think they do not speak out about it tbh.

If you read 1984 it argues that s the country needs something to fear to keep the folk in line . No one knew what it would be after communism – remember they wanted to klill us all and destroy oiur very way of life as well – and now we have Islam to threaten our very way of life and a fabricated document to justify war….still bloody war crazy Muslims eh 🙄

Its BS we are invading them they are not invading us.

Are you basing how many Muslims ‘speak out’ against extremism on the amount of coverage it receives in the media? I don’t see what else you can be basing it on and that’s pretty idiotic IMO.

I have a problem with certain aspects of some versions of Islam – expecting them to all feel responsible for a lunatic fringe is ridiculous though.

JY +1

surfer – Member

Really? There are plenty speaking out against it FFS.

But they appear to be mainly outside the faith. Unless you are talking about Ayaan Hirsi Ali? Maybe she is just “lazy and ignorant! however she is under constant armed guard for the crime of apostasy.

Google ‘Imams against terror’

Just because they don’t copy you in on the minutes doesn’t mean it’s not happening.

surfer, I’m not arguing with you as I don’t have the time to de-programme you..

but think about folk that had to be protected when they spoke out against the IRA.. we didn’t all go round being scared of our catholic grannies as a result did we?

enough of this nonsense.. It’s making me feel sad

Have we really got a situation where a billion people are all following a mob mind that many of them don’t actually fully believe in?

No. And seeing that’s the premise of your nonsense, that’s something you should reflect on.

A billion people follow Islam but, what, they’re all too scared of their own religion to speak out against the more extreme bits of it?

Well you obviously haven’t noticed that they are fighting wars against the extremists, such as in Syria and elsewhere. And that “we” often support and encourage the extremists, as we did in Afghanistan, and still do elsewhere.

Or had you noticed but that Muslims killing each other simply isn’t enough for you and you want something a little more pro-active ?

“the treatment of women restricting their rights is not religious but culturally-based.” This is an argument I’ve heard a lot. However on my limited travels in maybe half a dozen different muslim ccountries and Kashmir I’ve never seen it. Also if choice is involved, I’ve always been fascinated by how in some countries all the women seem to make the same choices about their attire.

I’ve always been fascinated by how in some countries all the women seem to make the same choices about their attire.

And the men don’t seem to make the same choices about their attire ?

You can’t get a clue concerning what country you might be in by looking at what attire the men choose ?

Regardless of everyone else’s beliefs or efforts, Islam seems to be making a fair fist of demonising itself in our society at the moment. When it condemns terrorism across the board, renounces Sharia law, stops persecuting its own womenfolk, and promotes blanket tolerance towards non-Muslims, then it can come and play with the other children again.

😯 wow! just **** wow! 😯

Yes but we all know you are the intolerant lot* 🙄

* SATIRE CONTENT

we didn’t all go round being scared of our catholic grannies as a result did we?

I was scared of my Catholic granny but that was mostly because she smelled funny and hit me with a wooden spoon, not because of the 32 counties.

Anyone here been following the Tower Hamlets election fiasco?

Seems to have been some remarkably dodgy dealings going on!

There’s a certain irony of claiming that Muslims in “our society”, as Cougar puts it, are intolerant of others when the parties of intolerance made huge sweeping gains throughout Europe last week.

I guess it was a commitment to tolerance that attracted all those votes which resulted in UKIP winning a nationwide election last week 🙂

when it all kicked off royally a few years back the Immams and mosques were doing precisely what you say they are not doing..

Good. But as I said, if that is the case then they have a PR issue (and / or we have a media issue, but we knew that), because that’s not what I heard from their appointed spokesmen on the radio and I don’t recall any other media saying much different at the time.

You say this like you are some sort of expert on Muslims and what they do,

Far from it, and I’ve never claimed to be, though I’d like to know more. But we are discussing the wider populace’s perception of the Islamic faith are we not? Those perceptions aren’t necessarily accurate.

If Islam is bothered about its image in the West then it needs to be more active in improving that image. If Muslims aren’t bothered about what non-Muslims think then that’s fair enough of course, more power to their elbow. But it seems short-sighted to bleat on about “irrational fear” if the only embassadors to the faith everyone else notices are terrorists. That’s not irrational fear; it’s misplaced perhaps, ignorant even, but it’s pretty rational if that’s all people are seeing. (And of course, that could well be a failing of the ones doing the perceiving.)

What sort of access do yu think they have to media?

That’s a very good point of course. I’ve never seen a brown person on television.

They do speak out in the mosques and their community events and withing their communities

unfortunately neither you nor the UK media attend these events nor reports on it

And there’s the rub, isn’t it. There’s not enough visibilty, not enough communication. And if all that people see is negative, rightly or wrongly, then the rise of the opposite fringe, UKIP and worse, is all but inevitable. It’s all rather depressing.

Why don’t the media report on it, incidentally? Are they not bothered, or are they not allowed?

That’s a very good point of course. I’ve never seen a brown person on television.

Cougar – Moderator

their appointed spokesmen

Who do you think “appoints” them? What usually happens is you get random imams or “community leaders” rolled out but it’s like listening to the Taxpayer’s Alliance or Jeremy Clarkson, the person you’re hearing is the person who wants to be heard not necessarily the person “the community” would choose to speak for them.

An Imam from a mosque is in a position of leadership of that mosque; they’re representative of their specific community by definition, are they not? Have I missed something there?

Well, the media often present them as such, but is that a reflection of the actual situation? Mr Khan, anyone?

They’re the spiritual head of that tiny part of the community, yes. That doesn’t make them authorities that can speak for them, especially on non-religious matters, let alone for the wider community. How much heed would you give to a random church of england preacher, if they were suddenly on the news telling you how christians think?

You also talk about “muslims” as if it’s all one group, but you’d not accept the Pope speaking for the Church of England, or a church elder from the Wee Frees.

Anjem Choudary gets (or has had) more airtime than any other ‘spokesman’ yet represents a few hundred people. But his views are divisive and will cause a stir. Gory makes story.

Anjem Choudary gets (or has had) more airtime than any other ‘spokesman’ yet represents a few hundred people. But his views are divisive and will cause a stir. Gory makes story.

And he seems to be the “darling” of the BBC and whilst he is a nasty piece of work the BBC reaches more people than almost anything else in the UK and nobody would claim he was representative however the alternatives unelected groups referred to above are hardly representative either.