@johndoh

you sound like a good chap to work for. What industry are you in?

i wasn’t trying to belittle your generosity and I’m amazed by a lot of the response that seem to think you are some kind of arse for taking people to Milan.

crazyjenkins01
That being said, all those going should book Monday as leave.

What is it with people wanting to punish people! 😆 Why in the hell would you do that. Just give the guy the friday off. 😆

They’re going with the boss. Surely it’s up to him ?

If the weekend isnt work, then Monday is a normal work day. If they are travelling back from a non-work event (therefore in their own time) yet not having to book leave/are being paid for it, then the one left behind would surely be losing out??

Pffft! I got a Hero chocolate for a successful resuscitation last night. Beat that.

Was it stuck in the patient’s throat?

Also, what flavour? If it’s eclairs or caramel, you should file a complaint.

i wasn’t trying to belittle your generosity and I’m amazed by a lot of the response that seem to think you are some kind of arse for taking people to Milan.

I don’t think anyone has suggested that.  Its the treatment of the team member who being told to work after having the audacity to cite personal reasons for not giving up his weekend which is the issue.  The contribution of said team member doesn’t seem to be of value, because there is not an alternative being offered in sympathy.

My main concern (as a trade unionist) is fairness.
One member of staff not being treated the same, for what sounds like an unavoidable restriction, is the issue.
If the weekend isn’t work/in work time, which sounds like the case, Monday is a normal work day for all staff and as such time not at work (travelling back from a free holiday) should be treated the same as having a day off to have a lay-in/take the kids out/go for a bike ride etc.

crazyjenkins01

Member
My main concern (as a trade unionist) is fairness.
One member of staff not being treated the same, for what sounds like an unavoidable restriction, is the issue.
If the weekend isn’t work/in work time, which sounds like the case, Monday is a normal work day for all staff and as such time not at work (travelling back from a free holiday) should be treated the same as having a day off to have a lay-in/take the kids out/go for a bike ride etc.

Madness! Ye balance things up by adding something positive, not taking something away.

That’s kind of my point. Fairness.
Either add something to the last member of staff (a day off) or the others give up a day off. Each has its pros and cons, but then its fair.

If the other staff are travelling back from a non-work activity in work time and therefore being paid for it, and the boss/owner is happy with that (which seems John is) then expecting the last staff member to still work seems unfair. If the other staff are taking a days annual leave for travelling back, then expecting him/her to work is totally reasonable. The problem is, it sounds like whats being talked about is a mish-mash of both.

Unless I missed something @johndoh?

I don’t think anyone has suggested that. Its the treatment of the team member who being told to work after having the audacity to cite personal reasons for not giving up his weekend which is the issue.

Giving up his weekend? Or being given the opportunity to take part in an enjoyable trip?

Unless I missed something @johndoh?

To be honest I don’t know anymore. I thought we were doing something nice (and the team seemed to think so last year, including this person) yet it seems we have screwed up and it has taken much more of my day, my business partner’s day and our office manager’s day than we’d expected.

We won’t be doing this again next year – we’ll just bung them £100 (with usual taxable deductions) in their December pay packet. I hope I don’t offend anyone of different religious beliefs…

Unless I missed something

You did.  It is by definition a work activity, as its being funded and organised by their employer.  Whether its in working hours or not is irrelevant albeit the attending employees have chosen to give up their non work time to attend.

Monday’s activities then are acceptable as deemed by their manager and upward, but the question of fairness remains.

“We won’t be doing this again next year – we’ll just bung them £100”

Sounds a much better idea, tbh. The only things your employees will never have issue with are being given time or money.

I’d take a hundred quid over losing my own weekend to attend some ‘team building’ jolly every time. As would most, I feel.

Edit: Not being dismissive of your gesture, John, But surely you can see that a weekend in Milan with colleagues in your free time is not for everyone.

young children, other family commitments, fear of flying, whatever?

The reasons are complicated and I would rather not go into them, but it’s none of the above and they attended last year.

Seems they’ve got a genuine reason, and would have liked to go, unlike some of the miserable grinches on this thread that want to clock 37 hours a week without speaking to anyone and waiting for their pension to kick in.

Did you try to gauge availability before organising?

As someone suggested – a day of phone and email answering (from home if the technology allows) while watching youtube/netflix; plus let them have a dinner with their partner on expenses. That way everyone is equally tired and hungover Tuesday morning.

Someone who doesnt want to engage in interaction with their colleagues is a fairly rubbish team member in most circumstances.

Johndoh,

Irrespective of what else, you have my respect for trying. Brilliant job fella.

Once again I despair at humanity and STW

I want to work for jondoh !!

Once again I despair at humanity and STW

I don’t see why.   OP’s done a good thing for most of his employees and in the main received some good alternatives about how he should manage the one who can’t make it.

You ask the questions on here and get a range of mixed opinions, some of which you don’t like – we’ve all experienced that.  Its how you disseminate that information and use it that really counts.

Once again I despair at humanity and STW

You know how at work there is always ‘that person’ the one that nobody really likes and always has to be a bellend about absolutely everything, well I think they’ve all replied in force on this topic 😉

It’s impossible to please everyone in situations like this but it looks to me like you were just trying to do something nice for your staff.

If I ever had a question where I needed an opinion from a group of normal people theres no way in hell it would get asked on here 😂

Burn the witch!!

🧙

“We won’t be doing this again next year – we’ll just bung them £100”

Awaits the “Staff member being bullied for spannering next years Xmas euro piss up” thread.😉

Johndoh you have my sympathy, you sound like a top bloke. Hope you find a compromise that works for all.

It’s great what you’ve tried to do you can’t please everyone and that small little gesture to the one who couldn’t make it of another gift might have just sealed it but yes a bonus is much easier.

Once again I despair at humanity and STW

It would be a shit place if we all agreed. Also labelling it as team building day is what through people, simply calling it a paid weekend away would have been easier to understand.

Once again I despair at humanity and STW

Agreed. Possibly the thing to take is the variety of reasonable information you did get so you’re better informed

No one here knows the exact details so comments are to a level assumptive

I wish I worked for a firm like yours. The principal of idea and the engaged team (from what I understand) sounds like a breath of fresh air

Next year you’ll have a clearer stance on how to manage it 🙂

Team building, morale building, extra rewards etc I just don’t get any of it tbh. I prefer just to do my job and get paid, it’s why I’ve spent my whole life on price work or quoting. If someone doesn’t work hard enough they don’t earn enough and won’t be given anymore work. If you do the job right you’ll get more work, I don’t need to be told great job I just want the money. The reward for doing your job right is the money you earn, there’s nothing more needed.

As nice a gesture as it is taking folk away for a weekend I’d never give my weekend up for work unless it involved a lot of money and never to spend social time with employees 👍

Just to point out that I would never attend an event like this unless compulsory and being paid – and the 3 days becomes 2 weeks work if its compulsory as its 24/7 for the time away. 80 hours to be paid. Want me to attend. Pay me for it. You only get my time when I am being paid

I cannot think of anything worse workwise than giving up a weekend to do an event like this – thats my personal take

Work is work, my time is my time. the two do not mix ever

I work to live, I do not live to work

johndoh

Member

We won’t be doing this again next year – we’ll just bung them £100 (with usual taxable deductions) in their December pay packet. I hope I don’t offend anyone of different religious beliefs…

That’s also mental, those type of trips aren’t for everyone, but that doesn’t mean you should still do them, just think you should have an alternative idea.

It’s a good idea, defo don’t give it up, just because of some piss taking on here…

It’s a good idea, defo don’t give it up, just because of some piss taking on here…

I read it as it was too much effort as it took too much time of 3 senior staff.

If I ever had a question where I needed an opinion from a group of normal people

TBF, I cannot envisage a scenario where I’d ever want an opinion from normal people. They’re boring idiots, I’ll take the opinions of weird and interesting people any day.

morale building … I just don’t get any of it

The beatings will continue until morale improves?

It depends on the industry. I can understand if you are overstretched and underfunded frontline police, NHS, fire service etc busting your balls every shift, then being asked to attend unpaid “team building” would warrant a sharp rebuff.

However in johndoh’s example I’m assuming private sector, relatively successful small/medium sized business, everyone’s wages/bonus depends on the continued success of the business – such jollies are excellent management. It both rewards the team and generates cameraderie and is genuinely good fun.

I think the mutual incomprehension on this thread maybe down to this differing perspective.

People being people, you then you get the outliers who chuck a spanner in the works.

My sympathies johndoh. No good deed goes unpunished.

I have used STW for exactly this – when you have a situation you are not sure abut asking on here will get you a range of views from a range of people. You do have to be thick skinned but it is very good at getting to the crux of the issue and to seeing it from different directions

Facebook / your friends tends to be an echo chamber. this place most certainly is not

OP should have stuck this on the AIBU section of Mumsnet for a quick flaming. Would make any criticism on here look mild!

Just to point out that I would never attend an event like this unless compulsory and being paid – and the 3 days becomes 2 weeks work if its compulsory as its 24/7 for the time away. 80 hours to be paid. Want me to attend. Pay me for it. You only get my time when I am being paid

I cannot think of anything worse workwise than giving up a weekend to do an event like this – thats my personal take

Work is work, my time is my time. the two do not mix ever

I work to live, I do not live to work

My boss is a friend, we spend a lot of time together, we MTB together too. I find it deeply saddening you’re in a job where you wouldn’t want to spend time with the people you work with.
Whilst I’m not best mates with all of them, we get on well.

I get on with my colleagues. I even like some of them.
I have no need or desire to share my time away from work with them though. That’s what family and friends are for.

A work jolly in Milan or time off at home is not a tricky decision for me.

I’m not amazed that some people think I’m odd though.

EDIT: I should say, I’ve been on rides and evenings with them and it’s not been unpleasant. It just means I feel I haven’t left work and got away.

I can understand if you are overstretched and underfunded frontline police, NHS, fire service etc busting your balls every shift, then being asked to attend unpaid “team building” would warrant a sharp rebuff.

Loved ours last year we had a great day out in Edinburgh but it was made clear it was a social day, was great fun. We’re planning our next one for the beginning of next year but we pay for it ourselves.

Sorry, skipped from page 2 to page 7….

My take – it’s like a Christmas party. It a voluntary thing most people think is nice to be at and go for the pleasure aspect. It happens out of hours and no one grumbles because it’s a nice thing and you are not forced to go. The company put it on not because they think xmas is amazballs but because it is an attractive retention perk to many and a bonding experience which hopefully reduces the recruitment agency bill and increases the annual efficiency of the staff body. It’s ultimately a canny move not an altruistic one.

Because of the employer benefits from the shindig you are prepared to donate a day of work to get the ramble back home. You are doing this because of the benefits to the company. If you are not on the trip you don’t need to travel home so you have no need to miss out on valuable mouse clicking time.

However – given the the trip is about employee buy in and retention IF you want the keep the none attender and IF the reason is a bit sad (looking after a poorly relative or all manner of horrible shit people have to do at the weekends) I’d probably be having a quiet word and telling them to not bother coming in. If its just their normal weekend fun it too much fun to miss to come with you then no, they work the Monday like every other Monday.

To add – I think I would spend a weekend in Milan with my work colleagues with a heavy heart. It’s the sort of thing that I would have signed up to two month prior and on the night before be kicking myself for being a dick and not saying I was painting my nails.

weeksy – its not sad at all from my point of view. I find it sad that people have such empty lives that this sort of thing appears to be something worthwhile. I have friends among my colleagues and even see some outside of work. However my time is my time to spend as I wish and I would never want to send a weekend with the people I work with. I have better things to do like having a life!

Its just a different outlook on life and understanding that my life is not my work. same as I will never and have never attended any sort of team building type stuff. Its loathsome to me

Neither is right or wrong – its just a different attitude and set of values

weeksy, I’m in the same boat as you mtb and holidaying (even at my own expense) with workmates, but there are a lot of deeply impersonal and antagonistic/adversarial workplace environments out there. Agree that state of affairs (rather than the individuals trapped within it) is saddening.

Did you try to gauge availability before organising

Yup – we tried various alternatives and this was the only weekend everyone could make (including the person in question). We booked flights and the hotel then they came back to us with the reason they couldn’t come (which, if true, they would have known about when we asked the question) so we gave their place to a student who comes in once a week. Subsequently they asked for a day’s holiday.

Please don’t go down the hundred quids route. It reeks of lowest common denominatorism. £100 will not generate esprit de corps.

Subsequently they asked for a day’s holiday

I think if it is a reward weekend for everyone than I probably would have offered them a day off, unless, as it seems, this is a personal thing and you want to punish them by making them sit in an empty office as they bloody well should for not being grateful.

I totally get where you are coming from, but keep it simple. Reward everyone. If one of the team feels penalised I think the whole point has been lost.

Also, ignore the reasons given for  non-attendance as you seem to be a little sceptical. Maybe they are just not telling you the real reason.

£100 will not generate esprit de corps.

I think that is the intention.

‘Nah, no expensive holiday this year because someone ruined it last year by not coming, here’s a few quid. You know where to direct your complaints’

Even if not the intent, then I would imagine that some employees would see it like that, which wouldn’t help anything.

@convert is wise.

You’ve admitted this is a perk, a reward to the team rather than any form of real work. Which changes everything, why then does Billy No-Milan get nowt cos he can’t make it?

How much are you spending per head on this trip? If they genuinely can’t attend due to ‘personal reasons’ (that they may well have known about when asked but kept quiet as they didn’t want to ruin it for everyone else) which are sufficiently sensitive that you can’t discuss here, why not bung them the base cash value of the trip instead on the proviso that a) they don’t expect it next year and b) they tell no-one in case it gives anyone ideas? Have them WFH on Monday to save you the cost of a temp, but give them an extra day off in lieu as Joseph has suggested about 17 times so far in the last two pages.

An argument was floated earlier about “fair.” What’s fair is that you’ve offered this jolly to all your staff and one has declined. You haven’t excluded anyone, that’s totally fair on your part. What isn’t fair is the outcome, for whatever reason someone can’t accept your offer so they’re the only one getting **** all as their annual bonus.

Cos, really, all other things aside what’s the downside to you here? The cost of a temp for a day when you can afford to take everyone on holiday and you’re already quids in anyway because one less person is going? The only problem I can see is as I said in my first post, you could be setting a precedence; tell them it’s an exception and to keep quiet about it and that’s mitigated.

ignore the reasons given for non-attendance

As I said before, they shouldn’t need to give a reason. “It’s personal” should be sufficient.

‘Nah, no expensive holiday this year because someone ruined it last year by not coming, here’s a few quid. You know where to direct your complaints’

Even if not the intent, then I would imagine that some employees would see it like that,

All of the This.