Oh just saw the extra 60 deaths guesstimate from TJ above – again I wouldn’t dispute this it sounds like the best number we have. And in terms of my personal experience and my brother’s, I think the limit may be too high – both of us independently have breathalysed ourselves after several pints (over the course of an afternoon or long evening) and found that we’re under the limit. In my case it was on a cheapo self test kit, which might have not worked properly, however his was on one used by his social worker partner for clients that might have alcohol problems, and pretty reliable. There’s no way I would have considered either of us fit to drive, in both cases we must have had 6+ pints, but we would have shockingly passed a breath test.

Maybe we’re outliers in terms of our “well trained” livers mopping up the alcohol quickly, but neither of us drink unusually heavily these days. In any case, as I said, neither of us would’ve considered ourselves fit to drive despite the breath test saying otherwise, so I can easily see that the 60 could be an under-estimate. I would perhaps rather see drink drive based on a sobriety test though, which would thus remove the “oh but I’m not tired so I can have an extra drink” type excuses.

Errr! You’ve posted about police reduction not evidence there’s been an increase in the use of mobiles used while driving.

Ehhh . . but you were trying to say that because less people had been caught recently, this meant that less people were using mobiles, and I’m pointing out that less people have been caught because there are 30% less police on the roads.

Funny also how the numbers of people being caught using mobile phones at the wheel has dropped at a similar time to the recent cuts to police budgets over the last few years, and at the same time as the proliferation of speed cameras and increasing reliance on technology and cameras to police the roads.

Errr! You’ve posted about police reduction not evidence there’s been an increase in the use of mobiles used while driving.

Funny how the reduction in numbers being caught and convicted has also coincided with a drop in traffic police numbers, a recent large cut in police funding and an increasing reliance on cameras to police the roads?

Ehhh . . but you were trying to say that because less people had been caught recently, this meant that less people were using mobiles, and I’m pointing out that less people have been caught because there are 30% less police on the roads.

Over 10 years there is a 30% reduction. Yes I know that but is that real the reason that there was a 50% reduction in FPN following the change in law in the space of one year, of course not.

Colleagues at work in Glasgow are pretty worried about over-doing it the night before & still being above the (Scottish) limit. I must admit I bought myself an alco-tester gizmo, for when I drive in Scotland ‘the morning after’. It’s calibrated so I rely on it. I’m surprised after several pints the night before how low the alcohol levels are, well below the Scottish limits. It’s a non-issue I suspect, unless the boat is pushed well out beyond the surf-line and into deep water

On another tack. I often stop off for two or three pints near home after a regular evening ride (20 mile MTB or so) I do with friends. Out of curiosity I’ve tested myself once I’ve cycled home & been surprised that I’m still under the English limit – must be the exercise I suppose?

My youngest is learning to drive; it’s reassuring to hear him say that it’s strictly taboo for his mates to drink & drive – I think I even believe him.

Have you know thought about reporting him?

Read my post Drac, I’ve never seen him driving away. Short of calling the cops and saying there’s a guy that might be drunk driving, I’m not sure what else you’d expect me to do.

Read my post Drac, I’ve never seen him driving away.

Errrr! Ok I see.

When I used to ride motorbikes if I had one pint I could really notice the difference it made to my riding ability, you don’t notice the difference as much sat in a nice warm car but you’re just as impaired, you just don’t realise it.

Funny because I was once at a track school in France. One day, I popped into the local village at lunch time and had the daily menu – which came with a carafe of wine. I decided to just have a sip but the three courses were so good I drained the whole jug – maybe 500ml or 2/3rds of a bottle.

Anyway, back for the afternoon track session on my 180mph superbike my instructor said “That’s the best session you’ve done all week!”

At the time, I drank a fair bit and had a pretty high tolerance – I guess. I’m sure your average alcoholic wouldn’t be too affected by an amount equal to the DD limit.

I never drink/drive on the road btw although I don’t mind cycling after a few. I’ve got one friend (an ex pro MTBer) who cycles to most social occasions even 20-30 miles away so he can have a booze.

So after the non-existent traffic officers have nabbed you for drink driving you then get sent into our fabulously well-funded and efficient prison system, well known for its present overcapacity and ruthless reduction of re-offending rates?

Not looking at the short jail sentance for rehabilitation – just for punishment.

Oh – and plenty of traffic officers / roads patrols round here.

Yes, but you live in an oil-rich socialist utopia 😉

Not looking at the short jail sentance for rehabilitation – just for punishment.

Best punishment would be to remove license for ever.  Do the same for lots of different driving offences and you would have less cars on the road, the drivers left would be the safer drivers and better public transport because of more use etc,.

Not looking at the short jail sentance for rehabilitation – just for punishment.

And studies have shown this to be ineffective for other offences, what makes you think it would be effective for this particular offence?

Edit – assuming you want to see a reduction in offending and are not simply vying for revenge against someone who hasn’t actually done any harm (yet).

Have you somehow missed all the stuff in the news recently about our prison system that is presently bordering on total collapse? Awash with Spice and the resulting assaults to such a degree that prisoners are requesting to be put in solitary with the nonces just to feel a degree of safety, and prison staff are openly protesting out of desperation?

I think there are probably slightly more effective solutions than that to be had

I’ve had a driving ban when I was young and stupid. 6 months for a tot up of speeding points (naughty me) and I can tell you that it’s a right royal PITA! When you’re used to being mobile then all of a sudden you’re not, everything you took for granted becomes a mammoth effort. Going shopping? Getting to work and back? All of a sudden they all become a logistical nightmare. I won’t be getting bloody banned again!

The problem isn’t coming up with ever more Daily Mail style punishments. The problem is enforcing the laws in the first place to issue the punishments already there. If you live in more rural areas, drink driving is endemic. When we moved out here I was genuinely shocked to a lot of peoples blase acceptance of it. Loads of people do it because they know their chances of being caught are absolutely infinitesimal

Having watched the programme last night they interviewed the guy who came up with the 0.08 level back in 1967.  That level was based on a study, in Michigan IIRC, that they did analysis on and determined that the doubling of risk of accident was at the 0.08 level. He was asked if he’d apply the same limit today given the knowledge we now have and he said no.

His one counter argument was the cost of doing so in that if a traffic cop pulled someone over for a breath test and they failed then it generally meant that the cop was tied up for the rest of his shift taking the offender back to the station for the “evidential test”. He did say that there were now Evidential Test Meters that could be deployed in vehicles so if you failed the first one then the cops could do the ET there and then. Of course that also involves a cost in equipping at least one such meter with each force or station.

Binners, again, spot on.

I have driven with 2 pints of normal brew normally after a ride and i can cofindently say it has no effect on my driving if anything it makes me a better driver as I am more conscious of my surroundings and other drivers.

And the more you drink the more confidently you can say it.

His one counter argument was the cost of doing so in that if a traffic cop pulled someone over for a breath test and they failed then it generally meant that the cop was tied up for the rest of his shift taking the offender back to the station for the “evidential test”.

A bit of crap argument against it.

Anyway, back for the afternoon track session on my 180mph superbike my instructor said “That’s the best session you’ve done all week!”

You did a good track session because your addled brain was suppressing your self-preservation instincts.

I think it’s well established that a low level of alcohol can improve performance. However you won’t find many officials shouting it from the rooftops.

I think the statistic we really need is how many deaths are caused by people under the limit that have had a drink?

I have been calibrated when I was followed from the Watermill in Ings at kickingbout time and beathalysed. Two pints of 3% ale and well under the limit.

Ebforcement is the only way to make laws effective. I think breathalysing is so rare now compared to the early 90s.

<div class=”bbp-reply-author”>franksinatra
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The lower limit in Scotland is better as it removes the question fir me about whether you can drive on one or two pints. Now I just don’t drink at all if driving. No grey area.

Yup. And the other benefit is that it kicked away the slippery slope. Used to be people would go Pub? I’ve got the car… Ah well I’ll just have one. And then well, you’re pretty sure you’re under the limit at 2. And then it’s ages since the first one and you ate and go on go on go on. Lots of people don’t set out to drink and drive but end up doing it, by having to make the decision of when to stop once they’re already a bit drunk and their judgement is ****ed.

I can’t even be trusted with ebay while drunk never mind a car. And for everyone who thinks “I’m fine on X pints” or “I drive better”- even if that’s true for you, do you think it’s true of most people? I am pretty sure your own perception is wrong but it’s not actually that important if it is or not- because it’s not just about you, laws never are.

Except for that one law about having sex with tapirs, that one’s all on me

tomaso – the chap in the article quoted by the OP said around 60 a year.

“…it generally meant that the cop was tied up for the rest of his shift taking the offender back to the station for the “evidential test”.”

A somewhat sweeping statement. There’s every reason to fast track the custody process to secure the evidence, i.e get the driver on the evidential device

The whole argument smacks of – lets punish everyone to send a message to the few who drink and drive (and will almost certainly continue to drink and drive whatever the law says because they know they can get away with it) that it’s not acceptable.

I deplore anyone drinking and driving and have never personally done it, however here is no conclusive evidence that small amounts of alcohol, say a single pint effects anyone’s driving for the worse since everyone’s reaction to alcohol is different.  For some, particularly if they rarely drink, a pint will make a bit of a difference to their perceived coordination and will of course be measurable if they were hooked up to some sort of simulator test.  For others, a pint barely registers on the system.  For me, sometimes I feel it, sometimes I don’t.  I do know that after a couple of pints though I’m a much better snooker player, and snooker, much like driving is affected by coordination, observation, decision making and mental sharpness.

This isn’t an argument that we should all be having a couple of pints before driving, merely that we shouldn’t be demonizing people who enjoy a single quick pint after biking, or tarring them with the same brush as those who persistently drive well over the existing drink drive limit.

however here is no conclusive evidence that small amounts of alcohol, say a single pint effects anyone’s driving for the worse since everyone’s reaction to alcohol is different.

Yes everyones response is different but even at levels just below the limit EVERYONE is impaired.
Well proven.  I see if I can find the data

Ah, snooker, cool analogy bro.

Well proven. I see if I can find the data

To prove your point?  Don’t bother!  People are obsessed with demonizing the slightest transgression of a speed limit, the slightest amount of alcohol when driving, when the real elephant in the room is basic poor driving standards.

If all those people who rant on about speed and alcohol limits had put half as much energy into improving their own driving standards, and perhaps campaigning instead for increased testing, or mandatory and periodic further training after passing the driving test then so many lives could have been saved.  Are you aware that someone who has done their advanced driver training is between 30-50% less likely to be involved in an accident?

Yes everyones response is different but even at levels just below the limit EVERYONE is impaired.

What about driving when you have a cold?

What about driving when you are feeling depressed?

What about listening to Rob on The Archers?

Surely all of these will situations will result in your driving being impaired?

Should all of this be subject to a prison sentence?

or tarring them with the same brush as those who persistently drive well over the existing drink drive limit.

I find it so disappointing that attitudes like this still exist.  A lot of laws exist to protect us from the lowest common denominator. Lewis Hamilton is an awesome driver but he still needs to obey speed limits. You can’t legislate for different levels of ability, you therefore have to baseline.

Finally, despite various claims of driving awesomeness, I simply don’t believe anyone drives better when they have been drinking.

I am in favour of a zero tolerance approach to roads policing, massively increased fines and bans, mandatory retesting every 5 years and a much tougher driving teest

However deaths from drink drivi9ng are easily dealt with and just because some other aspects of road safety are hard to pursue does not mean we can continue to allow dozens of people being killed every year because englands drink drive limit is too high.

Driving with medication or a really heavy cold  would hamper my driving abilities more than 2 pints of 4% ale, I can tolerate more alcohol maybe than a normal joe! I drive for living so I know the consequences could be a pain in the ass for me. Like I say the limit is about right IMHO.

About making my better driving better its more of being the same level just more aware of my surroundings then again I ride better after a couple of pints FACT!!!!!

Like I say the limit is about right IMHO.

All that means is that the limit is about right for yourself. Sadly drink driving laws probably need to be set for puny individuals like me who would be utterly shite behind the wheel after a couple of pints!

I agree about the medication/illness point, but the only real difference between that and alcohol is the lack of any way to measure it,  or set a threshold which is comprehensible to your average punter.

We’ve all probably driven when impaired in some form or another – it just shows that people are not so hot at self-regulation, just as they were in the pre-drink drive law era, when they happily got into cars knowing they were **** and more likely to kill someone.

Driving with medication or a really heavy cold  would hamper my driving abilities more than 2 pints of 4% ale, I can tolerate more alcohol maybe than a normal joe!

You do realise it is illegal to drive if impared by medication?

Is there any chat of EnW lowering limits like has happened up here?.

Postie – utter bullshine.  At two pints your chances of having an accident are greatly increased.  Its just you do not have the self awareness to realise this.

I also very much doubt you are under the limit after two pints.  Seriously dude – reassess this. All the evidence says you are wrong.

i dont understand what possible reasoning one could reasonably justify not having a just above zero limitation. other than being selfish based on the existing actual data rather than anecdotes of i felt fine and got lucky after 27 pints stories.

If you require a drink to exist dont drive. simples.

There is no one forcing you to drink alcohol in a pub and taxis exist if you must.

or tarring them with the same brush as those who persistently drive well over the existing drink drive limit.

I find it so disappointing that attitudes like this still exist.  A lot of laws exist to protect us from the lowest common denominator.

Yes so all of us see our freedoms and enjoyment of the basic elements of life reduced because of a few idiots.  Should we shoot all of the sharks in the ocean because a small minority of sharks choose to bite a person?  Should we all be banned or restrict from cycling in cities because a couple of pedestrians have been killed by cyclists recently?

The current balance is about right I would say – we just need more enforcement of those that take the mickey, perhaps more random testing in the hills around Bolton, that’s the real issue.

at times like these one must remember driving is a privilege not a basic element of life.

Folk have learnt that the hard way (binners) its a right chav when its is actually taken away.