I think spesh made the old tee shirt. “Innovate or die”

At least one of my local rural pubs has a shuttle bus that will collect you and drop you off after a meal and drinks

They are doing well.

Oh well done you’ve posted a link from the Express. 😂

Kananga – have you read the north report I linked to? I suggest you do if you think thre is no evidence for changes to the law. ~This is why scotland has a lower limit.

TJ, there are some strong arguments for reducing the limit sure, there are also some strong arguments against it and instead of targeting those who drink responsibly (penalizing everyone), why not simply direct resource towards targeting those who do drink and drive.  This would involve more police on the road in problem areas.

As has been shown in some other countries, having a lower drink drive limit does not necessarily reduce drink drive casualties over a country with higher limits.  Better enforcement of the current limits would almost certainly reduce casualties however since people would realise that they just can’t get away with it (which they easily can at the moment).  The biggest gain is not targeting everyone but instead targeting the problem drinkers.

Did you not see my statistic above that 70% of people involved in driving driving related accidents have alcohol dependancy issues?  This implies that it’s not those having a single post ride pint who are the big problem.  I suspect most of the rest of them know that with few police on the roads, they can just get away with it.  Do you think a change in the drink drive limit would discourage them?  Not a chance!

do you think at least 60 deaths a year is a reasonable price to pay for keeping a few rural pubs open?

Well, I don’t know about where you live but certainly here in the West Country all of our lovely country pubs are only able to stay in business due to the throngs of drivers piling into the bars to drink their single pints before carefully driving off to their AIM courses.

@postierich

when I lived in Kendal, there was 4 ex postmen who worked at my firm. Three of them were heavy drinkers (at least one was an alcoholic, we found cans in his van), the fourth one was teetotal, he used to tell me how great it was working for the post offiice, when I asked him why he left he said because virtually nobody made it to retirement because of the heavy drinking culture there , people just pegged out, every day it was in the pub for the remainder of the afternoon after your shift.

There is zero evidence that the scottish lowered limit has had any effect at all – and anyway do you think at least 60 deaths a year is a reasonable price to pay for keeping a few rural pubs open?

You may also find though that keeping rural pubs open provides a better quality of life for everyone.  If you’re that bothered by deaths on the road though them why haven’t you taken your advanced driving test?  Or do you just prefer to preach to others about what they should or shouldn’t do?

I know it’s fashionable to get all pious about these things and I’m sure lots of hand-wringers will jump down my throat but frankly 60 deaths per year is **** all when you consider the size of the at-risk population. It’s not even a large proportion of road deaths. 60,000 (yes, sixty thousand) die of alzheimer’s and believe it or not we all die of something.

believe it or not we all die of something.

Would be of boredom if TJ and Drac got their way!

If you’re that bothered by deaths on the road though them why haven’t you taken your advanced driving test?

Why are so obsessed by this?

Would be of boredom if TJ and Drac got their way!

One pint in a pub will never be very exciting.

If you’re that bothered by deaths on the road though them why haven’t you taken your advanced driving test?

Why are so obsessed by this?

Because if you haven’t done anything yourself to improve your own skills then you are not really in a position to lecture to others about possible shortcoming’s in theirs.

Drac are you just here to troll?

One pint in a pub will never be very exciting.

Maybe not for you but for others, me included then it’s a looked forward part of a ride or Sunday lunch etc.

One pint in a pub will never be very exciting.

One pint in a pub with some friends can be a very enjoyable way to relax. If you need to get plastered to have fun I respectfully suggest you’re the one with the problem.

I’ve done my defensive driving courses through work for driving in the USA, west africa and other places with terrible driving.

I may have missed the part where they talked about having a pint before driving defensively.

Because if you haven’t done anything yourself to improve your own skills then you are not really in a position to lecture to others about possible shortcoming’s in theirs.

That does not require an AIM though, you can make you driving safer without one of those. Stop speeding, drive at a sensible speed to the conditions, keep you car maintained or not have any alcohol when driving. They’re just a few things that can be done. You being presumptuous that anyone who mentions drink drivers hasn’t done anything about their own driving.

No I’m not trolling I’m still puzzled why you think the AIM is a god send and allows you to comment on drink driving laws.

One pint in a pub with some friends can be a very enjoyable way to relax. If you need to get plastered to have fun I respectfully suggest you’re the one with the problem.

No I don’t need alcohol to have fun or relax for that matter but it has been known. I’m very partial to a pint or 3, funnily enough I was out Saturday night for a few which meant the car didn’t move until yesterday evening.

Maybe not for you but for others, me included then it’s a looked forward part of a ride or Sunday lunch etc.

Not sure that is a definition of excitement.

I may have missed the part where they talked about having a pint before driving defensively.

Can you still drive defensively after a single pint though, sure you can.

No I’m not trolling I’m still puzzled why you think the AIM is a god send and allows you to comment on drink driving laws.

I’m more puzzled why someone who seems to care so much about road deaths would not have done such a course, or similar?  I’m not a member of the IAM by the way, although have taken and passed their course in the past.

You know you’re on thin ice when you start quoting the Express.

I’m more puzzled why someone who seems to care so much about road deaths would not have done such a course, or similar?

So you’re saying you would accept my opinion if I’d done such a similar course and was assessed every 5 years, held a certificate rather the just past the AIM course some years previously?

Interesting.

You being presumptuous that anyone who mentions drink drivers hasn’t done anything about their own driving.

I have asked and only one person has come forward.

Why should anyone need to get extra training?

There is a legal standard of driving that is required to be met once.

The law makers have not deemed it necessary to make any significant changes to this for years.

I will have a pint before driving.

I tow stuff without any extra training.

I occasionally speed on motorways.

The only extra training I have had was a Lantra Off Road course for work.

So you’re saying you accept my opinion if I’d done such a simily course and was assessed every 5 years, held a certificate rather the just past the AIM course some years previously?

Interesting.

Nope I’m saying that if you care about deaths on the road – go and get some further driver training before complaining about what others do or don’t do.  If you have then great.  If you haven’t then I suggest you do and that if everyone did then it would have a HUGE positive impact on road safety – a far, far bigger impact than reducing the alcohol limit by a few %.  Stop trying to twist my words Drac to try and catch me out to win your own pedantic little argument.

I suspect Drac given his job and his training is one of the highest trained and most highly skilled drivers on here.

I suspect Drac given his job and his training is one of the highest trained and most highly skilled drivers on here.

That’s great TJ – but are you?

Nope I’m saying that if you care about deaths on the road – go and get some further driver training before complaining about what others do or don’t do.

Ok this is why I’m not twisting your words. This is a nice thing for people to do and I’d recommend people do a AIM I’ve said this before on previous threads. However it does not mean you can’t complain about driving standards especially drink driving without one. People can alter the driving standards easily enough as I pointed out above.

Not sure I’d go that far TJ but cheers.

However it does not mean you can’t complain about driving standards especially drink driving without one.

But why would you complain about the driving standards of others but then not seek to improve your own standards – it doesn’t make any sense?

All it demonstrates is that people are happy to whinge about what others should do, but cant be bothered to do anything about it themselves.

But why would you complain about the driving standards of others but then not seek to improve your own standards – it doesn’t make any sense?

How do you know they haven’t? Biggest change I did was to stop speeding that was years after I did my training. Once again so you get it, you don’t need an AIM to change you’re driving standards.

How do you know they haven’t?

Because (as I’ve said for the third time) I’ve asked on here and only one person came forward, TJ not included.

Oh and it’s IAM, not AIM.  Plenty of other options there though as you said.

I give up. Suns out so off to do some work at the cricket club, might have a pint too.

A bunch of the folk on here are emergency vehicle drivers.  Trained to a much higher standard than most.  I don’t know if any of the coppers are pursuit trained – IIRC the highest level

Personally – I did a good few hours of advanced training with an ex police biker and IAM assessor.

You do know what Drac does as a job don’t you?

You do know what Drac does as a job don’t you?

Why don’t you just tell us instead of speaking in riddles TJ?

He drives the fake taxi. Highly skilled.

IIRC he is a senior paramedic training other paramedics.  Trained himself to a very high standard of driving for driving emergency vehicles.  Far higher standard that you.  I am sure he could say more

Several of the other contributors to this thread are also emergency vehicle drivers.  Dunno if any are pursuit trained – obvuiously the cops need to hold their cards close

so when you are arguing in ignorance against that level of expertise you do end up looking somewhat foolish

@kananga – my we are a sensitive little soul aren’t we?

You’re not getting the subtext of all his postings. Check out the windsurfing one for example on page 1 or 2. He’s not a sensitive little soul, he’s a hard drinking, hard living adventurer, living life on the edge and not playing by anybody’s rules. If I was a woman I’d be throwing myself at him.

so when you are arguing in ignorance against that level of expertise you do end up looking somewhat foolish

So in your eyes TJ in order of hierarchy of people qualified to comment it goes as follows:

1 – Emergency vehicle drivers.

2 – YOU

3 – Everyone else.

4 – Those who have done some additional driver training off their own back, but who don’t agree with you, relegated below 3 as you believe that it makes them too confident for their own good.

You are a complete clown.  Get off your high horse and stop being argumentative for the sake of it.

pot kettle black

😉

You have been told you are wrong by folk much better trained than you, You have been shown thr evidence that shows you to be wrong but still you insist drink driving is OK.

pot kettle black

You have been told you are wrong by folk much better trained than you, You have been shown thr evidence that shows you to be wrong but still you insist drink driving is OK.

TJ I have not said that drink driving (as defined by the law) is OK.  Only you and a few highly vocal other are saying that the law is wrong.  I have seen and read the evidence which you posted, I accept that there is some merit in this but have also posted my own evidence to back up my argument as to why there might be a better way to tackle the drink drive problem, which you choose to simply ignore because it undermines your own rabid zero tolerance of anything agenda.

I am saying that the big problem is not with those having a quick pint very occasionally before driving – it’s the serial offenders, often people with alcohol issues, well over the limit that are causing 70% of the accidents.  These people couldn’t give a stuff about the law.  The rest I suspect occasionally drink and drive because they know they’ll get away with it.  A reduction in alcohol limits is only a distraction and will do nothing to catch and prevent these abhorrent people – only more police on the road, which I wholeheartedly support will do that.  This is where the changes and money should be spent.  Can you not understand these basic principles?

To be fair, I’m not really getting what all this talk of driver training is all about. It would be great if we were all trained to drive at a higher standard. However, it’s my understanding that most accidents are caused by things like impatience, distraction, and drunkenness. The latter being what this thread is about.

On the other hand, I see some appalling driving from some of these ‘highly trained’ drivers. Not that long back, while cycling, I was passed by a police car on a clear road, on the inside of traffic island. He left about 6″ of space between me and him. Perhaps they possess the skills to carry out such manoeuvres due to their superior training, but who are they to say I have the same skills and ability to hold my line?

Unfortunately people make stupid decisions regardless. The big problem is an emotional one. No amount of training will prevent people getting angry, or feeling the need to rush, or the will power not to check their phone, or end their alcoholism. There’s some poor driving out there, for sure, and I’d be happy to see stricter standards. But generally speaking, the kind of people who voluntarily go for advanced driver training, are probably the ones who need it least.

I was passed the other day by a hearse which went by me in the inside lane.

Thought to myself, “Mmm, typical undertaker”.

I’m here all week folks.

TJ, you’re wasted on this forum mate…. you should be out there in Parliament Square with your placard, demanding a change in the law!

Surely you mean outside holyrood?  😉  ah – but we already have the lower limit here