I have a 26er Soul with 100mm fork, 2.25″ tyres which are not tubeless (usually 30-35PSI, but my pump gauge is erratic at best so take that with a pinch of salt).

I’ve been on a couple of rides recently where I’ve nearly lost my fillings on rough descents. I get the “use your legs for suspension” thing, and I try to unweight the bike over rougher patches. But for sustained downhill chunk I find I get rattled around so much I develop a “death grip”, which makes me tense up, and then arm-pump, burning thighs, etc, etc. I usually end up having to slow right down while my mates with FS bikes vanish into the distance.

Any tips for getting better at maintaining speed through rougher stuff? Do I just need to get stronger, or is there anything I can do in terms of bike setup or technique which may help?

…I get rattled around so much I develop a “death grip”, which makes me tense up, and then arm-pump, burning thighs, etc, etc. I usually end up having to slow right down while my mates with FS bikes vanish into the distance.

Sounds like downhilling on a hardtail to be fair.

Bfe 26 here with a 150mm fork. Lots of experience riding downhill on a proper DH bike so not scared of going fast. Still get left behind by my mates on their full sus bikes.

Stay loose, avoid the death grip. Let the bike bounce up and down, you don’t have to vibrate with it. My thighs and hands still ache after a big day.

Don’t brake, pump the terrain, saddle down, knees out, keep your weight through your feet, look well ahead.

keep your weight through your feet

To a point, yes, but on really rough stuff trying to push the bike up and in front of you like a full-susser can lead to a staccato of slams and grinding to a halt as you drop into every hole.

I’d add into the mix to try to stay ‘playful’ look to pop and hop and let it kick around under you.

As a seasoned hardtail hero ( 🙄 ) I would advise dropping your tyre pressure a bit first, and go to tubeless. I tend to run about 25-28psi on the BFe, depending on conditions. If your tyres pressure is too high, you’ll ping off all the rocks and get bounced about a lot more.

Next, sort out your contact points. If you’re gripping the bars too hard, this can cause arm pump, so try a few different diameter grips, maybe foam grips to see if that helps. Elbows bent, attacking position. Also, it can be worth adjusting the angle of your brake levers, a 10 degrees either way can make a big difference, particularly if they’re pointing steeply down.

If you’re on flats, ensure the pedals have plenty of pins and drop those heels to drive the bike into the ground.

Actually stand on your pedals. Sounds odd, but centering your weight on the bike, ensuring most of your weight is supported by your legs. Yes, you need to weight the bars for corners, but if you’re holding yourself up with your arms you’ll end up pumped very quickly. Arms bent, holding bars relatively loosely.

Don’t brake! Pick your lines, look for good, smooth places to brake and stay off them the rest of the time. Most of that horrible rocking, jarring motion people complain about on a hardtail comes from breaking through rough stuff.

Hop, pump and weight the bike over rocks, bumps, compressions on the trail.

Hope this helps, I love my hardtail…..and I love it even more when I’m sticking to the rear tyres of my mates on 160mm endurbro gnarpoons 😀

Have you tried shrieking like a little girl, I find that helps 🙂

^Best advice ever!^

Same setup here though 120 Reba and Reverb. I rode this as my only MTB from 2014 for 2 yrs, and did a load of stuff and whilst I may have been out of my comfort zone the bike never was. Now have a 120mm FS as well but ride the Soul more than half my rides.

Wideish bars/short stem help. It is definitely slower on bumpy descents than my Anthem but no less fun 😀

Thanks for the good tips everyone!

I do already scream my way through most descents, so I’ve got that covered 🙂

I get the “weight through the feet” thing, for my usual standing position my hands are just resting on the bars, I could pretty much take them off and not fall over. Going down is tougher, I tend to hang off the back a bit, but this seems to become exaggerated on rougher sections to the extent I’m hanging onto the bars to keep from falling off backwards. I’m also holding on tighter to try to keep the bike pointed in the direction I want I think.

I was considering trying some different grips, so that sounds worthwhile. I have tinkered with brake placement a bit, they’re quite close to level currently such that (in theory) my wrist should be quite low so that the bar pushes into my palm rather than my thumb. Worth tinkering with more though. My bars are currently wide-ish at 740mm (I know, by modern standards that’s narrow…) with stem 50mm or so I’d guess.

On the tire front, I will try dropping pressure a bit, and consider tubeless. I don’t suffer from pinch flats too much, but I do worry about whacking my rims with pressure too low.

Anyway, good suggestions, I will certainly give them a go!

Go to Chamonix like I did with mine in 2002.
You won’t mind as much after that.

Hanging too far off the back = less control and more weight on the hard / no suspension rear wheel = more rattle ? 100mm upfront is a bit low for rougher downhills. TBH a Soul is going to rattle around on such descents to at least some degree (I have a BFe), you might actually have to ride them a bit slower in a mire “technical” style. My BFe has 150mm upfront butbwhatever I do its more skittish than my FS and slower but I find the FS makes some downhill trails “too easy” so I prefer the hardtail experience more overall.

@essel 🙂

I think the general consensus with riding position is try to avoid being too far off the back of the bike, if ever! Once you’re far back, your arms straighten and you’re not as ready for any impending obstacles. I saw a good video the other day which explains it better than I can, I’ll try and find it.

What fork ?

Bars and stem are plenty wide/short unless you’re a gorilla …

Maybe rotate brakes down a bit so maybe 30 -45 degrees to start with then tweak

A good, firm buttock clench is also handy……..

I have only ever ridden hardtails, the tricky thing for me on big rocky days out in the Peaks etc is being fresh enough to ride ‘active’ and fun.

I wouldn’t advocate dropping tyre pressures, but that’s because I built my rear wheel myself and have emotional attachment to it!

Huck to flat/ jump it all

Hardtails are rough blud. Deal with it. 😀

It’s great barking at the heels of your gnarpoon Enduro weapon sled riding mates.

Love my hardtail. (PP Shan, 150mm Revs)

The fork is a Reba Solo Air. I did consider replacing the airspring to bump it up to 120mm (which a lot of folks seem to think the 26er Soul was good with) but it’s quite costly for 20mm of travel. The descents I’m doing are usually not mega steep, but they are rocky. I’m sure the Soul is bike enough for it.

Come on, it’s supposed to be fun; there’s no point in punishing yourself for the sake of it. Some people just aren’t cut out for mountain biking.

Fair enough, mountain biking is a good introduction to cycling, but it’s childs play; people tend to move on to road bikes once they reach adulthood.

Mountain bikers are a dying breed these days, and I think ebikes will be the final nail in the coffin. Get out while you can, get a road bike and enjoy miles of smooth tarmac in absolute comfort.

Just think about it will you.

“Loose as a goose”, Souls work best at speed. I’m on a 26″ Soul with 120mm Reba’s, 50mm stem, 760mm bars and dropper.
Tubeless and “big” volume tyres as soft as you dare make a HUGE difference on a h’tail….and yes, weight the forks. 😉

Another center your weight not hang off the back hardtail rider.

A softer, longer fork that I can make work hard and allowing the back to float along behind works for me (on one 456 & 140mm fork).

I shove weight through the rear to get it to bite for braking but the rest of the time I rely on it skipping along underneath.

The 100mm you have will be harder work though.

Any thoughts on how “big” can I go with volume on a Soul (Mk2 FWIW)? The 2.25″ I’m running currently look to have maybe 5mm ish clearance each side at the chainstays (plenty of space at seatstays) although I haven’t measured it very carefully.

Interesting points on unweighting the rear. I guess I’m a little paranoid of OTB — I did break my wrist last autumn about 6 months into my MTB career so maybe that’s at the back of my mind too! It does make sense to stick more weight through the suspension.

Mk3 with Bontrager xr3 2.35’s. tons of room…

As long as you stay strong and stable, you should be able to overcome almost any obstacle.

It’s not so much unweighting (which would imply a weight shift forward of centre) but being in a position that allows the fork to take the edges off and you to relax your legs a bit and it to move underneath you without chucking your weight forward.

I’m not sure I’m explaining it very well. Sorry.

I’m also holding on tighter to try to keep the bike pointed in the direction I want

Have you tried different settings on your fork? Damping, in particular – if you have too much, the fork will pack down, really hammer your arms and be difficult to control. It should pretty much go where it’s pointed, otherwise.

The best thing Ed Oxley taught me was keeping my knees wide, giving the bike room to move around between your legs, and stay loose. Let the bike bounce, don’t try and stop it.

From Jedi, the adjustment of my brakes closer to the horizontal cocks your wrists, stopping rotation over the bars.

You have to send it with fed ex. Look for smooth bits and try and unweighted the bike as much as possible on the rough stuff, hopping off roots, rocks, lumps n bumps. A looser grip on the bars might help too as you allow more blood flow through your hands and it helps keep you relaxed on the bike. Getting and riding a hardtail made me quicker on my full sus too.

These videos are very good (IMHO) – gets onto steeper stuff in part 3.

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3QWGy2EwAw[/video]

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap0rjisRWEM[/video]

[video]https://youtu.be/48O–5pF4pY[/video]

[video]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lyrpt01xgaQ[/video]

Any thoughts on how “big” can I go with volume on a Soul (Mk2 FWIW)? The 2.25″ I’m running currently look to have maybe 5mm ish clearance each side at the chainstays (plenty of space at seatstays) although I haven’t measured it very carefully.

I just got some 2.8 Rangers on i29 rims in my mk3 Soul. The back tyre rubs on one of the chainstays when I’m out of the seat climbing back up the hill though (singlespeed, so standing and honking) 😆 As for not clattering so much, try and be ready/able to hop over and down stuff rather than ride over it which, to be honest, is easier typed than done.

You need to stay loose etc, I’d be cautious with reducing the pressure as it’s easy to pinch flat on the rear of an ht. Longer forks will help a bit as rear end does benefit from the front suspension. You’ll always find some trails fs has a bigger advantage, and you’ll fatigue more and faster on an ht.
On that note, changing the frame for a fs one would totally sort the problem… Or conditioning. I find rock climbing good for my grip strength.

2.25 for rattling down proper DH tracks, just no! and 100mm travel is obviously not ideal.

You want some high volume tyres to give a little compliance without having to run crazy hard tyre pressures to avoid pinch flats. Obviously line choice and being a decent bike handler is paramount on a HT or you will be in for a battering, at a snails pace, at the least.

I’d get a genuine sized 2.4 front (60 TPI carcass an absolute minimum definitely not 120 unless double) with soft compound tread (40-55 Durometer) and a sturdy (Double Down or similar) 2.3/2.35 on the rear, clearance allowing.

TBH I always found keeping my feet on the pedals was the biggest problem on a HT, at rough DH tracks, once you start piling on the speed. Suppose being clipped in would help, it would just be your teeth then 😆

Don’t brake, pump the terrain, saddle down, knees out, keep your weight through your feet, look well ahead.

This, along with dropping the tyre pressure (possibly investing in tyres with tougher carcasses), centring your weight and staying loose is basically the Zen of HT descents. Learning to leave the brakes alone is possibly the hardest lesson.

My Soul275 ran a 140 Rev for ages, it’s now on a 130 Pike. My Solaris ran 120 Reba for a while and is now sporting a 120 Yari.

Both are currently wearing 2.35 Vigilantes in Tough carcasses, High Grip on the Soul and Fast on the Solaris (because WTB don’t make the tough/high grip combination in 29″ for some reason…). Both have 2.25 TrailBosses in Tough/Fast on the back. The Solaris has a second wheel set that currently has 27.5+ 2.8 Trailblazers on it. All are tubeless.

Take a good look at your bike setup. Do pay close attention to the angles you have the bar controls at as this will inform your hand position (see point above about Jedi and brake levers – brake levers want to be a little under the horizontal to suit arm position with a straight wrist. not too high, but definitely not anything like the straight down position everyone used to go for. Play with the bar angle itself. Rolling mine forward a few degrees made such massive difference it was unbelievable but may well not work for everyone.

The key Oxley lessons are the wide knees and low position over the top tube letting the bike move freely and CHIN UP!!! Trying to keep your head level while rolling a pump track is a very good exercise for position.

Some really good comments, thanks everyone.

Just to be clear — this isn’t “proper” downhill I’m talking about, it’s more steepish natural trails involving lots of rocks. Isolated rough patches I’m OK at unweighting over, but when it’s just rough all the way the unweighting tends to go out the window, possibly because there’s no smooth patches to go from and to.

Lots to think about and work on though. I will definitely be looking at grips and tyres some more, as well as tweaking my cockpit.

Speaking of Ed Oxley, I was planning a session with him, but he’s stopped coaching now to concentrate on HebTroCo, which is a pity (for me). Any recommendations for other awesome coaches in the North West appreciated, but in the meantime I’ve got a couple of hours with WeRide booked at Northern Grip, so hopefully get some good pointers there too 🙂

My technique when coming to a steep rough downhill may be worth adopting.

Just as you come into it, adopt a loose grip, weight your pedals as suggested, then shut your eyes.

You can rely on gravity delivering your bike to the bottom at much the same time as you… 🙂

tomparkin – Member
Some really good comments, thanks everyone.

Just to be clear — this isn’t “proper” downhill I’m talking about, it’s more steepish natural trails involving lots of rocks.

This sounds like much of the stuff that I’m riding in Greece at the minute – just two dry stone walls and raw lumpy limestone bedrock in between – the football sized rocks that have fallen into the trail off the walls just serve to add extra spicyness….
As I’m not having to be bothered about keeping up with or ahead of anyone else (cos I have no friends and am always out on my own) my technique is usually as slow as possible (to let me pick the good lines) and only as fast as necessary (to avoid stalling between the rocks).

This is on a Genesis Alpitude with Marzocchi 55’s, for what it’s worth…..

Go to Chamonix like I did with mine in 2002

As did I with two hardtail pals. Our guides for the week watched us pull 3 hardtails out the car and sucked air through teeth… Showed em a thing or two, didn’t we 🙂

My recommendation is to do lots of pressups. It’ll always be rough so being strong will help.

Just thought I’d report back with findings so far, for the benefit of future hardtail mincers if nothing else.

Being a scientific type, for my Sunday ride I decided to change a whole load of variables all at once:

* tweaked my control placement (just slightly down from level, this wasn’t a big change from where I had them before)
* added a couple of clicks toward ‘fast’ on my fork’s rebound setting (it was dead center previously as I’ve not really tweaked it much)
* rotated my bars slightly forward
* dropped my tire pressures
* tried to heed the good suggestions about body position, weight distribution, and dynamics

And the difference was remarkable!

In terms of the difference each thing made, it’s maybe hard to narrow down the impact, but I can try.

In terms of the changes in settings for control, bars, and fork, I felt the new bar position was much more comfortable immediately; the other changes didn’t seem to make much odds — however, I did find myself with much less death-grip on the trail, so that’s probably an argument for them having been beneficial.

The change in tire pressure made a big difference; much less chatter/judder, and much more grip. I think I probably went a little far with the rear as I did feel a few little clunks of rim on rock, and picked up a slow pinch flat. So I’ll be thinking about tubeless, and probably larger volume tires too.

The dynamics/position/weighting made a big difference too. I was trying to ride much more actively all the way down the trail, so lots of playful popping and so forth, even in the rougher bits. This helped keep the wheels lighter over the chunkier bits, and had an unexpected dual benefit of avoiding muscles starting to burn by keeping them moving. The wide knees tip was bang on, it forces your weight lower, and made me feel much more stable and balanced without putting all my weight right back.

I knocked 10% off my Strava PB for one rough descent (my previous PB was on a full suspension bike, too!). But more importantly, at the bottom of all the rougher hills I could ride away without needing a short break to wait for my eyes to cease vibrating.

So thanks again for all the tips and pointers. Still lots to work on, but there is light at the end of the tunnel 🙂