Sunrise do a wide range 8sp cassette which when split and replaced, gives you 13-34 or 15-40.

Useful to know, thanks – have specced some of these but not got hold of any to try on my own bike.

Based on only my experience, a nice 5-7 speed would suit ebikes

Isn’t this why we get e-bike groupsets now? Aren’t they 7 speed?

Hmm, looks like e-mtb stuff is still 11 or even 12 speed, although I swore there were newer 7 speed options around. My mum’s urban e-bike type thing is 7 speed.

SRAM made an 8s E-bike group. It had some good ideas in it like limiting the shifts to one sprocket at a time, which makes sense over wider gearing gaps. Selling mass-market bikes with fewer gears rarely works out well though.

I wonder how many of the folk saying rohloffs and other IGH are not fit for purpose have actually ridden them much?

A bit like a single-speeder criticising derailleurs 😉

I wonder how many of the folk saying rohloffs and other IGH are not fit for purpose have actually ridden them much?

I’ve seen the price tag. If I won the lottery, I’d buy one. Just too expensive to even consider for most people.

Used to ride nothing but single speeds. Haven’t ridden one with any regularity for several years now since developing knee problems (though it’s getting dusted off tomorrow). Rode the first 5 Strathpuffers SS as it makes sense – no real climbs, and the unpredictable conditions mean that a simple bike makes sense.

Have never had a problem with a derailleur. Calls to abandon them seem to be based on experience of old mechs pre clutch and ore wide range 1x. 12spd Shimano stuff is almost faultless and has a far better weight distribution than a hub gear, and better ergonomics and function. Used a few hub gear options inc Rohloff and dislike them. Sluggish and very unrefined. Derailleurs for me win by a mile.

Different people have different priorities and preferences, which is why there are still options like Rohloff/Alfine etc but to me they make most sense on Urban bikes (where 8 use mine). On an MTB a good derailleur set up can’t be beaten right now as far as I can see.

You can add my name to the list for a simple offroad 3 speed IG hub

Better still, somebody copy the Schlumpf drive and make it enduro tough and half the price

I wonder how many of the folk saying rohloffs and other IGH are not fit for purpose have actually ridden them much?

I had one on my Pompetamine, Alfine 11spd, which was my commuter/tourer. I wanted to like it but I suspect that:

a) 11spd was pushing that design/technology
b) I got one that was right on the QA limit.

It did seem very sensitive to dirt on the arm that the gear cable ran over so it needed regular cleaning and adjusting, much more so than a derailleur cable. I wasn’t riding in particularly dirty conditions either – well drained canal towpaths were about the limit.

Ultimately it broke and I only had three gears which is why I then converted that bike to SS. I’ve not tried the 8spd version or the Rohloff (other than five minutes playing on a mate’s bike that was fitted with one) so can’t comment on those.

Ultimately nothing’s perfect so it’s just choosing what compromises you want to make.

Yeah, a MTB oriented Sturmey Archer hub gear would be pretty good. Pick your chainring:cog pairing for the central ratio then something like 50% and 133% for the other two.

I don’t understand why everybody wants hub gears. As the axle has to go through the hub and it runs on bearings so there can’t be a good seal to the body otherwise there’s too much drag. Any accumulated water will be drawn into the hub and the gears inside. It’s the failure point of every geared hub.

As thols2 points out up there. You’re just swapping one design compromise for another.

The drag isn’t from seals, it’s from meshing cogs, which you get in a planetary gear arrangement in most IGHs.

I’ve designed, in my head, a double speed system with a chain on each side of the bike, and the hub just flips over internally when you want. One gear for hills one for everything else. And no planetary gears so still efficient.

No problems with water penetration in several igh over many many years usage

Even the Rohloff is not expensive – in the ten years or so i have run it its paid back its initial cost in cheaper drivetrain maintenance. Everything last longer and you replace one cheap rear sprocket instead of several cassettes

Yes you have to accept a different set of compromises but the joy in having something that works, works silently and lasts for ever is great

Better still, somebody copy the Schlumpf drive and make it enduro tough and half the price

Engineering isn’t magic. Any system of gears needs precision machining of every part, so you require expensive equipment and it’s very difficult to reduce costs. Saying that you’d buy something if it was half the price and performed better is meaningless because you are saying that it would be great if things could be done by magic.

Utter rubbish. Everything on a mountain bike was “magic” before it was developed.

Engineering limitations cannot be altered tho. Gears are heavy and need precise machining and epicyclics create drag

but the joy in having something that works, works silently and lasts for ever is great

As well as my derailleur set up? I doubt it.

Engineering limitations cannot be altered tho. Gears are heavy and need precise machining and epicyclics create drag

This is basically the nub of it, efficiency trumps having a sealed box/hub full of gears thats easier to keep clean.

Considering the measley avg ~0.25hp your standard human will provide, efficient drive is still a priority, the closest we’ve ever come to the “Magic box” was probably the RN01 which was basically a mech in a box.

I still think some variation on that concept has more promise, but the cycling world still has quite a lob on for rohloff/Alfine hubs and pinion boxes…

Nickc. Better. No dropped chains or mishifts. Can change gear when stationary silent running

Engineering isn’t magic. Any system of gears needs precision machining of every part, so you require expensive equipment and it’s very difficult to reduce costs. Saying that you’d buy something if it was half the price and performed better is meaningless because you are saying that it would be great if things could be done by magic.

The Schlumpf drive is over £500: building a two speed chainset for half that price does not require magic

Using the puffer as a baseline for the how reliable mechs are is silly, muddy, frozen, tired gear changes, it’s a fairly non standard measuring stick.

I’ve MTB’d since 2003, a relative newbie, and have lost a rear mech (or indeed hanger) in less than 5 occasions I’d say, I can only recall 2, but I’m sure there’s been a couple more.

I think that’s fairly reliable.

I’ve MTB’d since 2003, a relative newbie, and have lost a rear mech (or indeed hanger) in less than 5 occasions I’d say, I can only recall 2, but I’m sure there’s been a couple more.

I’ve been MTBing since 1990, and, as far as I can remember, never lost a rear mech.

BUT, I still want there to be decent alternatives, and I still have a love for alternative drivetrains.
It’s about choice for me.
I love to fettle, and IGHs, gearboxes, etc. tick certain boxes that interest me more than a derailleur does.
I still run a ‘normal’ geared set-up on a couple of bikes though, as it makes sense on those particular bikes and their intended use.

The Schlumpf drive is over £500: building a two speed chainset for half that price does not require magic

If you think it can be done and there’s a market for it, why haven’t you done it?

Nickc. Better. No dropped chains or mishifts. Can change gear when stationary silent running

So, the sole advantage is changing gear while stationary, while. I’ll admit; sounds cool for the couple of occasions up some techy climbs, my drivetarin has all the same benefits, I can’t remember that last time I dropped a chain, my system doesn’t mishift, and it’s completely silent, and this on a 12 speed SRAM. Modern systems are utterly reliable, and surprising longer lasting that the 8/9/10 speed systems I’ve run in the past.

Sorry dude – derailleur systems are not silent. You get the noise of the chain threading thru the jockey wheels. You don’t notice it until you ride and IGH bike when the silence is noticeable.

The other main advantage is the longevity including that of your chains and sprockets. You are talking one chain every few thousand miles rather than a chain and cassette every thousand or so

the main disadvantage is a very small amount of drag and clunkier gearshifts. I’ll swap that for the advantages every day

sorry – the rohloff does whirr a bit in the lower 7 gears. the alfine and the SA are totally silent

Advantage of SS or IGH to me is the lack of maintenance time needed plus a general simplicity in the ride that I like enough to outweigh the disadvantages of no/fewer gears.

12 SRAM in particular has got a good durability rep though. And mech systems do keep going in a suprising amount of filth but eventually get overwhelmed (it can take a long ride to do that, rides I don’t do that often). I don’t have the time / CBA to clean it after pretty much every ride though and if I don’t things deteriorate rapidly.
Eg, my gravel bike goes off-road maybe 10-15% of the distance ridden in winter and that’s ok for ride:maintenance ratio on a 2×10. My SS MTB gets used more often in worse conditions so some sort of mech-less system appeals. Both have pros and cons, both match the ride needs well.

IGHs sit somewhere in the middle yet currently don’t cover enough advantages generally to swing it for me – Alfine 8 was pretty good but the weight distribution felt a bit odd on an MTB. Rohloff is more than I need. Nexus 7 on my city bike has been great and Nexus 3 always feels nicely direct. Some sort of minimal MTB IGH would get my £ as an experiment, it might need a clean or oil dip 1-2x a year but I’m replacing bearings in my Hope SS hub 1-2x a year anyway.

Sorry dude – derailleur systems are not silent.

If I could be bothered, I’d go out and record my 18month old XO1 and let you hear just how quiet they are nowadays. But trust me, set up properly they’re just as silent as hubs now. Times have moved on since you last used them no doubt.

NOpe -I have a modern derailleur setup on one bike – it whirrs like the roholff and in all gears. You just do not notice because you are used to it. The chain running over the jockey wheels makes a noise – it has to

If the noise level from either system is coming up as a pro or con the argument is getting very thin.

good point but it is one of the things I like . I like silent bikes

NOpe -I have a modern derailleur setup on one bike – it whirrs like the roholff and in all gears. You just do not notice because you are used to it.

Well I rode your actual bike and I have to say the whirring was noticeable in certain gears – ok so there was a lot torque going through it. But it’s different to the noise that a derailleur setup makes, and derailleur noise doesn’t get significantly louder with torque.
But derailleur setups aren’t silent in general.

For the record I’ve long fancied a Rohloff, but the cost has always prohibited it. Sure, you could argue (somewhat dubiously, in my view) that over a decade they’re cheaper, but that doesn’t make it any easier to find £1200+ on the spot right now. And to be honest the efficiency puts me off as well. Now that I use chain wax which more or less inures my drivetrain to mud, the key benefit of IGH for me is much less significant.

Bottom 7 gears MOlgrips and it keeps on getting quieter as it wears in.

Sure if weight and efficiency is your main concern a dérailleur is better. If ease of use, longevity and convenience is your main aim then IGH

it keeps on getting quieter as it wears in.

Would be interesting to see if there was a measurable difference in drag once it wore in.

I don’t notice any drag but it must be there. I would assume so tho as every oil change is full of fine metal dust

Thing is, if it gets quieter after wearing in, there must be some reduction in drag. Question is whether it’s actually measurable. TBF, the only reason I don’t have one is the cost. However, if I was racing seriously, the drag (even if it’s only 1%) would make it a non-starter.

Sturmey goes variations of tick tick tick (silent in one gear). Different tick tick to my childhood ones due to the revised driver setup that eradicates the nasty hidden neutral.

Shimano 3 speed silent clutch freewheel but still tick tick tick.

Alfine 8 silent – annoyingly so, as lack of audible freewheel makes you spook walkers.

Just going back to the infamous SFB submerged Rohloff saga. As I remember, they didn’t fail in service, just later bearing failures once corrosion set in. Just the same as happens to freehubs, hub bearings, ballrace jockey wheels and ht2 bbs if you drown them and then ignore…. Admittedly you can service or bin some of those items without sending to Germany (but they are still trashed).

How do e-bikes get on with repeated full submersion? Are they still fit for purpose if they don’t survive?

I’ve MTB since 1989 and I’ve had rear mechs break when sticks go into them, crashing (shouldn’t crash and then they won’t break) or in the case of early SRAM just fall to bits because they were shit. Also spent many a year on a SS and really like the simplicity of SS.

Iirc you can change main bearings in a rohlf without sending to Germany but I ha e had no sign of water ingress

Alfine 8 silent – annoyingly so, as lack of audible freewheel makes you spook walkers.

I miss my Alfine most for this – absolute silence when freewheeling. Just the thrum of the tyres on the road or trail.

NOpe -I have a modern derailleur setup on one bike – it whirrs like the roholff

Then it’s set up badly, a bad workman and all that.