no one knows quite how far it is prepared to go to get there.

It’s done so already by selling everything it can to Western folks. It’s been massively, surprisingly, unaccountably successful at it. What in the world would it do in all seriousness to impact that? It’s managed to essentially take over the economies of massive parts of the world without firing a shot. In comparison to Western democracies since ’45 it’s been peaceful to the point of pacifism*

*by all means makes the Augustinian comparison of Ceaser “We’ve created a desert and called it peace” But arguably the Chinese have been hugely less aggressive in the last decades than we have. It’s high time we come to terms with that, and I don’t think sending a paltry wee carrier half way across the globe really does, do you?

*by all means makes the Augustinian comparison of Ceaser “We’ve created a desert and called it peace” But arguably the Chinese have been hugely less aggressive in the last decades than we have. It’s high time we come to terms with that, and I don’t think sending a paltry wee carrier half way across the globe really does, do you?

The response it gets from the Chinese undermines your idea that it’s a paltry move. And at the end of the day, to rebalance the South China Sea and get the area operating under the rule of law everyone needs to chip in again. Flat tops are still a useful option to deny sea lane access if you really need or want to.

and it needed reminding that there were Superpowers that were angry and sent a flotilla to say, Panama? How’d that go down; d’you think?

China is already doing things like that – again a lot of these trawlers are armed.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/25/chinese-fishing-peru-us-beijing-row

China is already doing things like that – again a lot of these trawlers are armed.

That article says the Peruvian govt were somewhat embarrassed by the obvious inaccuracies of the claims made by the US, and I don’t think you can really compare a few deep sea fishing boats (armed or otherwise) to the Royal Navy in your actual back yard, can you?

 and get the area operating under the rule of law

To anyone in South America or the Middle East those words would ring hollow, don’t you think?

To anyone in South America or the Middle East those words would ring hollow, don’t you think?

And that means South East Asia and democratic Asia should acquiesce to more of it and we should abandon our regional allies? You’re arguing based on (as a leftist myself) lefty emotionalism as opposed to having any kind of coherent strategy as to how we go about reinforcing the rule of law in a world where Russia helped put Trump in charge.

We need more multilateralism and co-operation with countries that share more of our own values, not less of it.

and I don’t think you can really compare a few deep sea fishing boats (armed or otherwise) to the Royal Navy in your actual back yard, can you?

You can when they are used for armed shipping lane denial as they are in the South China Sea.

I don’t think it does yet either.

I do think it’s a start – but we need to start co-operating and reaching out to our friends in a much more productive manner than we have been. The UK has become a very inward looking country since Brexit, we have this ridiculous notion that because we’re an island we can afford to lose our friends, whether it’s from a right or left wing point of view, we’re doing too much gazing up our own arseholes as a country and we don’t understand the interconnectedness of the world and how important our allies are to us and our own wellbeing.

Not for a while, but this is a good read.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Tragedy_of_Great_Power_Politics

Don’t rule it out, the post world war 2 peace could just be a blip in the ocean.

I remember a few years ago many on here were beating their chests like deranged gorillas trying to explain how wrong it was when Corbyn said he wouldn’t use nuclear weapons. Funny how things change. 😄

Not sure much has changed “on here”… it’s just that people on this forum have differing views… it’s not a hive mind. I’m with Corbyn on this one… and Labour keeping a policy against his personal judgement/views must have been tough for him. Interviewers had great fun tripping him up, even though he was clear… he’s pro nuclear disarmament, and said he would never use those weapons if he was PM, even though Labour policy was to keep the arms unless the world disarmed together (probably what most people think). What has changed is that we now have a PM and government willing to increase our nuclear stockpile… that sends a dangerous message to the smaller nuclear powers, and those trying to get their first weapons. How can we insist they can’t gain or increase their own nuclear war capabilities? It’s a dangerous and backwards step.

I remember a few years ago many on here were beating their chests like deranged gorillas trying to explain how wrong it was when Corbyn said he wouldn’t use nuclear weapons. Funny how things change

What you’re remembering here is pretty much peak Corbyn. After being mocked by everyone he finally reached what he no doubt believed to be an acceptable accommodation with himself.

He’d go ahead and build the nuclear subs, so as to keep the jobs in labour ‘red wall’ constituencies, but he wouldn’t equip them with any nuclear weapons.

It all made perfect sense. We’ll not spend billions on a nuclear deterrent, we’ll spend pretty much the same billions to NOT have a nuclear deterrent. Bless him. It probably made sense to him at the time

On the plus side, expanding Trident and the UK Nuclear fleet means billions spent in UK ship yards and UK engineers building / maintaining it all, which is good for the economy and British engineering, which could really use some good news.

Mm yes but we could be spending the same money on engineering and science and end up with something useful like a fusion reactor or a quantum computer etc etc etc. Spending money on nuclear weapons is about the least useful way to spend it, I think. I’ll get more use out of HS2.

everything to do with the dangerous idiots now running the country.

I think its about what they set up now that gets misappropriated by the next mob.

The current rhetoric is alarming thou and the new fox type right wing channels, not looking good for the future.

It probably made sense to him at the time

Makes sense to the Japanese as well who use exactly this method.
Allows them to claim the high ground whilst being able to spin up a nuclear strike capability in less than a year.

and everything to do with the dangerous idiots now running the country.

Idiots yes, but hardly danerous. Sending a carrier on a tour of some distant ocean is pretty standard stuff – not going to start any wars.

I am somewhere between this being Brexit Empire building (an appealing proposition to many, my MIL included) and ‘oh look, an otter’…

They’ve been moving to more of an offensive capability for a few years

happy to be corrected, but doesn’t their constitution prohibit offensive forces?

There’s also a significant US military presence in Japan i.e. 50,000 personnel, about a quarter of the entire UK military – quite what difference Boris’ gunboat diplomacy is going to make I’m not quite sure. We can send one carrier, but can barely muster a destroyer and a couple of frigates to go with it.

Wait until they work out how much to send the boats there. It’ll take years at 1/4 throttle.

Anyway when Scotland gets independence and instantly becomes a nuclear state we can bully our non nuclear neighbour to the south. Maybe sell BJ back his subs and warheads. (😃)

From shonky, knock-off Soviet aircraft to self built stealth fighters in about 40 years?

erm…so the same time scale as everyone else then?  here’s a fact that will blow your mind. The F14 now is as old as the Spitfire was when Top Gun was made…

 What, in any way, do you think China, circa 1975, was as technically advanced as USA/UK/France

In the 70s China was producing the Chengdu J-7, essentially a MiG21 reversed engineered, and they made 2500 of them. The only real difference is it’s fuel system. The MiG21 was more than a match in A2A  (in fact probably better than) many 2nd Gen NATO aircraft.

Do you think it’s credible that they didn’t learn anything from doing that? They also evaluated the MiG23/27 and incorporated elements of that into J-9…It’s bad thinking to suppose that they didn’t develop the technology further