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@enfht not my finest moment I'd agree, his mother is worried he'll end up in care if he complains about that. I'll drop his school uniform off at hers in a bit and see what he has to say about it all if anything.
not my finest moment I’d agree
Don't worry about it, you didn't try to strangle him or thump him.
Sounds like you're at the open war stage. He's going for maximum provocation, you're the target of all his frustrations and anger. Why? I figured it was because he could. Anyone else would have locked him up, beat shit out of him, thrown him out, ostracised him... . It's not you he hates, it's his world, so you could say it's a proxy war.
I wouldn't have handed over the phone. I went to the (French) police for advice but didn't drag him along or give them any "useful" information. That might be because of local values, Vichy France and all that. I let myself be the focus of his anger. Not very comfortable at the time, very happy with the decision now.
You and his mother are the only people he can turn to and depend on, be there.
Just ignore enfht; he's being a nob. After weeks of psychological torture you are excused an over-reaction.
He really is in the grip of this stuff; he seems unable to even pretend to be in control of it. I hope he finds his way back.
Sheesh man. Tough calls again, again and again.
I still don't have much of use for you. I was a fairly wayward kid. Spent a few hours in the cells at times for various things. Eventually i calmed down, but i can safely say that my parents actions didn't co-incide with that at all, in either a good sense or a bad one. I simply 'changed' and sorted myself out.
As for you grabbing him, hell, my parents did worse, i deserved all of it and more... I don't begrudge you that. I don't begrudge them it, even in the future i do understand their actions at times.
One thing though. One particular time in cells i do recall VERY vividly even now sitting here on the sofa i can picture the reality of it, the colours, smells, the door, the locks, the seriousness. So maybe, maybe its part of your answer.
But, we sit and watch things like Ross Kemp, or Prison series, the simple fact is, some people who have good backgrounds, simply turn to crap and offend, just how it is
After weeks of psychological torture you are excused an over-reaction.
Not an over-reaction at all. Can't believe how well your trying to cope with all this, I wouldn't have done half as well. Hope it works out for your son but it does feel like the whole situation has still has got some way to run 🙁
I think we can safely say this thread will reach double digit pages. You never know after we're through this one way or another it may be a good read for others who find themselves in the same boat.
Why the hell would you need a joint that badly I’ll never know!
You don't. Its not addictive is the proper sense of the word at all.
My view very strongly is that this behaviour is from mental health issues / teenage rebellion type stuff and the cannabis is a symptom / self medicating issue. He is making it a trial of strength between him and you and being reminded he is not the strong one in this situation drives the behaviour
As for the over reaction - perfectly understandable - you are human as well.
The consequences for him longer term are severe if he gets this put on his record, even if it only comes up in an “advanced check”... Travel restrictions, limited job opportunities etc.
I’d make him fully aware of the impact of this before involving the Police further.
Criminal records as children do not come up in checks I thought - but I don't know the cuttoff ages. Plese check.
NO entry to the US for example if you have a drugs bust.
No entry to Australia either.
The consequences for him longer term are severe if he gets this put on his record,
Only if convicted, a simple arrest means nothing and doesn't flag up in anything, whether an old Disclosure or even a CTC (counter terrorism) deep dive check. I doubt even with the phone whether there would be anything like the evidence needed to constitute public interest.
As an aside, once he realises you have lowjacked his phone then all bets are off. Phones are cheap and plentiful, if he wants to go dark then he can and will.
He knows about the phone as I took him with me to the station to give him a talking to and hand it over. That's probably why he's not speaking to me apart from when he wants something.
That’s probably why he’s not speaking to me apart from when he wants something.
That's my son's default setting anyway 🙂
Awful situaqtion, I'm full of admiration for how you're trying to go about this.
Only thing I'd add is on the "scaring him straight" type thing by getting thrown in a cell. On the surface, it sort of makes sense and appeals to a good chunk of the British population's sensibilities.
There was a program in the States back in the day where they took wayward teens and took them to supermax type prisons to meet inmates and scare them straight. It was wildly popular but ultimately was shown to be a massive failure (its described here on page 332p. Basically, the kids that were "scared straight" were more likely to go on to get into serious bother. Turns out rather than scaring them away from crime, the trauma of being exposed to those conditions harmed them further. In your case, it might have the additional bother of affecting his record as well. I'd be wary going down this route, unless anyone else has a good justification beyond the anecdotal that it works.
It's always so very easy for those of us who are not having to face this situation every day to be able to make comments or offer advice. It's a horrible situation to be in and I cewrtainly feel for you. There is a huge tension between trying to love him through this with unconditional love and hold a disciplinary hard line. As others have said, sometimes kids just go through a wild patch and there seems no rhyme or reason for it from our perspective. And most will then come out of it the other side although for some of those it may well still take a number fo years before they are able to comprehend the horror of what they put their family through. And then some don't reach the turning point before it's too late. I have a similar situation with my nephew. He started going off the rails a few years ago and seems to have absolutely no ability to associate his behaviour with consequences. Started off mostly by being angry and throwing / smashing stuff about. My brother was a lot more tolerant and softer with him than I would have been. It then progressed to drinking (under age) and then smoking weed and hanging out with "the wrong crowd". He was a reasonably bright kid who had a lot of potential. Now, at 19 he has thrown pretty much msot of his future away. He is still angry, still drinks but looks and sounds like a 40 year drug veteran - no lights on, no one at home. He left school with zero qualifications and pissed away two apprecntice opportunities. Not even sure he is still at the "world owes me" stage or that it is even relevant anymore. The police interventions did nothing to change his attitude. At this rate he will probably be doing well if he is still alive by this time next year. Absolutely tragic.
I'd get proper Legal advice now regarding his potential arrest and the consequences. Under absolutely no circumstances would I recommend anyone allow themselves to be arrested without representation from the earliest opportunity, even if they are freely admitting their guilt.
I appreciate that walking in to the station with your Son and already having a Solicitor present somewhat undermines the shock tactic, but you've no idea how it plays out once he's under arrest. He could easily incriminate himself or others with all sorts of unforseen consequences.
Just a thought that occurred to me while catching up with this thread: rather than try and "scare him straight", can you get him to spend some time with a charity that deals with addicts?
I've never thought that tougher sentences were much of a deterrent, despite how much they please the tabloids; by the time someone's in the situation where a tough sentence is a prospect, they've already made a string of bad decisions and wilfully ignored appreciating the consequences might happen to them.
I know a couple of ex-psychiatric nurses and one current one who have said that an awful lot of the young men they see as in-patients have psychiatric problems as a consequence of drug use and abuse. Yes, smoking weed doesn't harm some people, but for others it can really mess up the chemistry in their heads and it isn't always fixable.
"Helped people help people" is a real cliche, but if he can spend some time with a drug addiction / homeless charity I think it _may_ open his eyes a lot more than slinging him in a cell for a few hours.
I know it's easy for me to offer free advice from afar on the Internet, I really hope somewhere in this thread you find help and comfort and know that many of us want to help in whatever small way we can.
Thought about that and approached a few places, they seemed reluctant to introduce kids, safeguarding issues etc.
I know that the shock tactics may not be the right thing to do but nothing else seems to be working, maybe it's worth a try. Kids mum has spoken to the officer involved so let's see what they've come up with.
Police officer has informed me that there is evidence in the phone that Laurie has been buying coke and weed for his friends before Christmas
Anyone who thinks the Police will turn a blind eye to this is being rather naïve imo. The above advice about seeking legal advice before proceeding is spot on.
Good luck op.
I was a nob for a long time growing up (15’ish to 25’ish) to be honest. Drugs, alcohol, few police type issues and a night or two in the cells.
I didn’t listen to anyone - my parents were ineffectual (not bad, just not helpful), and when I got in trouble at work and they tried to talk sense into me I wouldn’t listen. Police never got through either, I didn’t really give a damn. I was convinced I knew better and they didn’t understand me. They didn’t but as I didn’t understand myself either who can blame them.
I got into a bad relationship and struggled right through to my late 20s. I just sort of grew out of things(drugs and alcohol and destructive behaviour). I didn’t decide to sort myself out, I wouldn’t have had the willpower. I just grew up a bit and changed naturally.
I guess I was lucky that I got through it relatively unscathed, I could have been in real deep sheeite on many, many occasions.
It’s only now nearly 20 years later and having been belatedly diagnosed with depression and anxiety etc and plumbed the depths with those that I see how bad I was growing up. I thought I was cool and knew best but I didn’t. I was an arsehole sometimes.
I think the only real thing that would have made a difference to me is having a respected ‘father figure’ type to take me by the arm or give me a boot up the arse when required and lead me in the right direction. I can see more structure and a physical outlet may have helped along with counselling but I can only see it now, not then.
Anyhoo, not sure if that’s at all helpful in this situation but just thought I’d put another spin on things. If it helps I’m now 48 and doing alright. Have been for a while thankfully!
TS
Ps I can see you’re doing your damnedest trying to sort things out, hope it all works out for the beat.
Dealing with a teen in a rage, that is as big as you/bigger than mum, sometimes you need to step in. Anyone blaming to OP for shoving the lad out of the way, needs to be in that situation.
My lad is Type 1, 19, and is regularly running in high blood sugars. I have had to jump on him and restrain him a couple of times since he was 16. He doesn't remember. He got in a crazy mad mood with mum, went off on one, kicked her, etc, so I went up, saw this and just sat on him and restrained him - a teen in a rage is very strong, but Dad trying to stop this getting worse is even stronger. My word was I upset after, but it stopped the trouble. That's just a medical condition.
It's hard enough having teens these days, they don't realise 'media' is complete shite. OP's lad is withdrawing from drugs/under drugs. It's not nice doing some things, but life ain't straight forward.
I'm lucky my two teens are great, but we don't still have some big issues...
I really feel for OP, as a parent of similarly aged kids, it's bloody hard these days, with media/connectivity. I just went out with mates and messed about - no cameras. My dad was a right nightmare - I'm only finding this out now he's in his 70's and let's 'go' after a pint or two...
Drugs are shite though.. it's not the taking, it's the other shit that can follow (friends have had this with their son).
Just heard from his mum, she's spoken to the police and he's got to be interviewed under caution with a solicitor present. Depending on how he performs in interview, and how the supervisor takes it will decide if there's a prosecution.
Unfortunately for Laurie he's chosen to deal coke, left circumstantial evidence on his phone, and now has to deal with the consequences. He'll get as much support as we can give him, but it's his actions that have got him to where he is.
Jonesyboy, you're being very stoic and pragmatic.
Virtual hugs.
Most people are convicted on evidence they give themselves IIRC from my days on the prosecution side of court cases. I hope that solicitor is going to do more than just be present. Your son needs advice on what to say.
Maybe if they treat him like an adult grown up criminal it really will be a reality check.
When they book him in , fingerprint him, cavity search etc then remove his shoe laces , trouser belt , phone , wallet . maybe DNA , although that might not be till charge time.
If he gets 3-4 hours in a cell to stare at the wall with no drugs or phone or X box and no one to get angry at , followed by a full recorded interview under caution he might see its gone beyond abit of a laugh , and life isnt like Breaking Bad and prison / Young offenders is on the cards it may just be enough for him to step back
Probably wont last though, as being a cool rebel at school , rebelling against society with a WGAF attitude the cliché is oh so very common . Evetone knows girls love a bad boy , even 15yr old ones , its edgy and their way of rebelling at their parents without getting themselves a criminal record. And there is alot of anger in teenagers .
Does he carry a knife yet ? That appears to be the route to A & E.- fags , booze, weed, class A's , dealing , knife for show / protection / defense and all of sudden he becomes a statistic.
I hope you manage to work it out. Leaving him school clothes is awork of genius , no self respecting dealer trades wearing a school jumper and some Clarks shoes .
Unfortunately for Laurie he’s chosen to deal coke,
I can't be the only one that thinks you are seriously overreacting to this? Getting a bit of weed and coke and sharing around few mates is dealing? Nuts, that's just how it works.
Anyhow, all the best. I hope your approach works, but I honestly think you are making the problem worse here. All you are really teaching him is that he better not get caught. And your influence will be reducing by the day btw, he's 16, not 12.
Anyhow, as I say all the best and good luck.
Getting a bit of weed and coke and sharing around few mates is dealing? Nuts, that’s just how it works
Maybe in your world. Not mine.
Getting a bit of weed and coke and sharing around few mates is dealing? Nuts, that’s just how it works
Maybe in your world. Not mine.
But it is how it works, and hopefully it hasn't gone past that stage. There's always one person in a group who knows someone and the others "ask" him or her to get something for them. In fact lads like the Op's son are often nagged by their friends and class mates to buy stuff for them. There's no pushing drugs onto people, it just so happens he's the one with the contact. Things can go a lot further but normally it doesn't.
But yes in the eyes of the law he is a dealing and there's no getting away from that.
I don't think the OP is overreacting significantly. I agree there is a difference between dealing and getting some for a mate from a mate. However the boys behaviour has been atrocious. I still think the drugs are a symptom not a cause here. But again - I don't have kids.
My lad arrested by the Police when he was 16 (seven years ago). Him and some friends had been messing about around some houses where some burgalaries had recently taken place. They were apparently in the garage of a house where a kid in the same school year was living.
They were held in the cells overnight and the Police turned up at our house at 5am to search his bedroom (he was meant to be staying at a friends house).
A couple of the group had some cannabis on them (not our boy). They were released after about twelve hours in the cells during which time they had been fingerprinted and had their clothes taken away and dressed in what I would describe as black "loungewear". My wife spent about four hours at the station awaiting his release.
There seemed to be a big element of the Police trying to scare them by showing them the process that happens to criminals. We went along with this rather than demanding his release and it did have some effect and nothing was put on his record.
The effect of this soon wore off though. He changed schools for A-levels and fell in with a crowd of kids from well off families whose lives revolved around drink, parties etc. He did not do well enough in his A-levels to go the the university he wanted to and so we paid for him to re-take two of them the following year.
During this year he spent a few months working for an organisation that housed recovering addicts, troubled kids etc. which we thought would help him understand the downsides of drink, drugs etc.
This did not work as he became increasingly detached from us and kept very odd hours disappearing for days on end and when he was home sleeping for long periods. He had also started wearing a black backpack which he was never without. One time when he came home and had slept for 12+ hours his mum searched this bag and found various drug paraphenalia including a large "rock" of something (think it was MDMA) which was far more than for personal use.
His mother dragged him out of bed and demanded an explantion. It turned out that he was dealing to friends and could not see why we thought it was a problem. This was two weeks before he was due to start university. I tried to get through to him by showing him news articles about people of similar ages who had been prosecuted for dealing but he did not seem to relate to them.
In the end he went to university and was staying in a hall of residence where the local dealers hand out business cards. I know he has continued to smoke weed as his rooms have reeked of it but I think the dealing stopped when he went to uni.
He is graduating in the Summer four years after starting (he failed some of his second year exams and insisted on having a year to retake them rather than doing it straight away) and hopefully will get reasonable grade - to be honest I will be delighted if he scrapes a 2:2.
Sorry for the rambling story - I think what I am trying to say is that kids do not see anything wrong with drugs. He has seen the inside of a cell and been a care worker for damaged addicts but still takes drugs. Basically what his peer group think of him is much more powerful than us, the Police or his future prospects.
I still think the drugs are a symptom not a cause here.
Having been in a similar state as a youngster i would agree with this. Not that i would have had a hope in hell of expressing the causes at that age though.
Sorry for the rambling story – I think what I am trying to say is that kids do not see anything wrong with drugs. He has seen the inside of a cell and been a care worker for damaged addicts but still takes drugs.
Different drugs are different! some are harmful to the individual, some are not, some cause massive social damage, some do not. for most the harms of prohibition far outweigh the harms of the drug. Taking you getting the lad to work with addicts - I assume heroin addicts or perhaps crack - If he is smoking weed then he does no look at them and see "that could be me". He looks at them and sees junkies while he is a smoker. He will not identify with them.
This is one of the problems with the " just say no" approach and " all drugs are bad". When your own experience tells you that what adults are telling you is wrong in some particulars in some ways then its easy to distrust the rest of what they say.
People want to get high. Thats a given. In this country for most it is alcohol which is far more addictive and far more damaging to both individuals and society that many illegal drugs.
this is where the harm reduction, informed social policy and informed choices come in. give kids the real information.
People want to get high. Thats a given.
Is it thought? I think there's a huge element of people thinking whatever they do is "normal" and everyone else is either reckless (one side of the scale) or a prudish bore (the other end).
On the one hand you get people like the guy on QT last night and seosamh77 claiming that coke use and dealing is an entirely normal thing to encounter and be involved in.
On the other hand 30% of 16-24 year old people don't drink alcohol at all. Scotland may be different.
sauce: https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/10/young-people-drinking-alcohol-study-england
Now assuming it's a sloping trend with perceived less harmful stuff being widely used (everyone loves a cup of tea right?) and herroin at the thin end. Then it's a reasonable extrapolation that >30% (probably by a significant margin) of young people don't infact "want to get high".
Tinas - pretty much every culture throughout history has had drugs they use. Even some animals ( drunk elephant anyone?)
I wonder what the crossover between those teetotal kids and those that use cannabis is?
Tinas – pretty much every culture throughout history has had drugs they use. Even some animals ( drunk elephant anyone?)
Not sure how that's relevant, except to point out that not everything that happened i the past is a good thing.
Should we bring back slavery and concubines just because they've existed in pretty much every culture throughout history?
I wonder what the crossover between those teetotal kids and those that use cannabis is?
Of the same age group,
77% don't smoke
80% don't use any illegal drugs in th epast year
There's probably some crossover, but your implication that young people are taking illegal drugs instead of drinking seems at best far fetched.
Sauce:
and https://www.drugwise.org.uk/how-many-people-use-drugs/
The teatotal kids - I didn't mean to imply anything - it was just an idle thought - are they teetotal because they smoke or are the teetotalers non smokers as well?
The point about other cultures is that there seems to be something in all humans that is a desire to get high. Its not just our modern western society. Its a universal across all societies since the beginning of modern humans and also exists in other mammals. chocolate for example started life as a stimulant drink. flying reindeer are fly agaric hallucinations. Coca has been used for centuries in south america. Khat in east Africa. elephants and chimps seek out rotting fruit because it contains alcohol
The point about other cultures is that there seems to be something in all humans that is a desire to get high. Its not just our modern western society. Its a universal across all societies since the beginning of modern humans and also exists in other mammals. chocolate for example started life as a stimulant drink. flying reindeer are fly agaric hallucinations. Coca has been used for centuries in south america. Khat in east Africa. elephants and chimps seek out rotting fruit because it contains alcohol
Yes, but my point was none of that makes it a good thing.
People want to get high
Some people, maybe most people, but not all. I have never had the desire to get high.
I agree. Its just an "is" and something we have to work with. Its perhaps a part of the reason for "just say no" not working. so if you accept that drug use ( and I include alcohol) is going to happen then harm reduction is the key
If we had sensible drug laws Leah Betts would not have died. The drugs did not kill her. Her and her friends ignorance and unwillingness to seek help killed her.
gauss - do you drink alcohol? Ever felt " I need a drink" after a bad day at the office?
Depending on how he performs in interview...left circumstantial evidence
Advise him not to say anything. Go through the process by all means but don't say a word.
Because it "will be taken down and used as evidence"
He needs shaking up; not locking up.
do you drink alcohol? Ever felt ” I need a drink” after a bad day at the office?
It wasnt aimed at me, but in the past maybe, although tbh i think i just drank a lot becsuse it was normal. I definitely dont anymore despite working with some big drinkers, im quite happy drinking soda water. I quite like a beer, but I quite like alcohol free beer too. And never particulalry feel the need to 'drink'.
Which goes back to my original point. People saying "its normal to want to get high and deal small amounts" are possibly correct in their own social circle, but their world view isnt reflected in the population at large who mostly dont take drugs, and increasingly dont drink either.
gauss – do you drink alcohol? Ever felt ” I need a drink” after a bad day at the office?
Not really. I’m not teetotal, I don’t have anything against drinking alcohol per se. But, if I’m with people drinking wine at dinner I might have a third of a glass to be sociable, certainly not to get high.
I don’t have a problem either with people taking drugs, but as far as I’m concerned they all have their risks and I’m very risk averse (for whatever reason). I do not need to take drugs to have a good time. I find it ironic that generally people who don’t drink or take drugs are seen as rather dull. I have been around many people drinking alcohol and enough taking drugs to know that they tend to be incredibly boring and annoying and are best avoided. I cannot think of anyone I know who is better company whilst drinking alcohol or taking drugs.
Oh, and no I have never felt ‘I could do with a drink’ when stressed. Which is just as well as it doesn’t seem to work.
Oh, and no I have never felt ‘I could do with a drink’ when stressed. Which is just as well as it doesn’t seem to work.
Great attitute. I'm coming to the conclusion through practice that it doesn't work, but drugs and alcohold are almost in the DNA of the UK so very hard to step away from. Interestingly Nietzsche hated alcohol, basically he put people who drink (even if they were athiests) in the same bucket as religious headbangers. Using something external to avoid and escape reality.
Random fact - most high hazard sites in the UK have D&A testing. One place I worked for brought it in from having nothing. Instant 30% fail rate for class A drugs. Almsot mindblowing how prevalent drugs are in society. Let that sink in next time you see a big scaffold somewhere - nearly a third of the guys that built it were probably wasted.