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I looked up things I need to know about including cannabis and the links are proven if the users have some genes.
This sort of thing can be quite misleading; when you read the actual Caspi et al paper that suggests this, the link is nowhere near as strong as indicated in the website above. It's somewhat akin to newspaper headlines screaming 'Bacon gives you cancer!', when the actual research suggests a 10% increase in likelihood if you eat bacon for every meal for 10 years.
I'm not saying that there is not a mechanism by which cannabis is detrimental to mental health, but I am suggesting that much research into the drug gets surprisingly confused between causation and correlation.
JP
Genetics are only part of the story, Google "effects of cannabis on the pre frontal cortex in adolescents".
So weed isn't good but along with load of other shit it's become a part of young people's lives. For a lot more of them than our generation. Stuff that was marginal in my youth is mainstream in clubs these days, so mainstream it's more likely to be circulating in our kids' peer groups.
It's worrying but objectively the kid's today are doing better than our generation did on drink. Only one of junior's peer group has died so far, by his age two of my mates had killed their girlfriends in alcohol provoked motorbike crashes (and they both limp both physically and mentally to this day). In the people around me one person's death can be attributed to cannabis and one heroin (AIDS due to injection), eight have died in RTAs in which all but one riders/drivers had been drinking, one died of liver failure, and several have health issues related to drink. Four suicides (or was one just an RTA and another just a silly fall). And some mountaineering accidents.
It's a crazy old world out there and preparing our kids to make their way in it is hard. We're only a small part of what influences, them. I, like the OP worked hard on making that influence positive, If junior gets to 30 in one piece and of sound mind I'll relax, he's not there yet.
Also further to JPs post above its very hard to separate out the effects of cannabis alone and the effects of cannabis in combination with other drugs including alcohol.
We do know alcohol and cannabis together is a bad combination for performing skilled tasks - far worse than either on their own. does this effect cross over into the long term harm? unclear
We also know that alcohol causes huge harm both to individuals and to society. does that mean its dangerous for everyone? Of course not. does the same apply to cannabis? Obviously as there are millions of cannabis smokers in the UK and only a small % have lasting ill effects from it.
Just thought of another realy positive thing we did, teaching him to drive. Junior had a really cool instructor who was really cool about everything except drink/drugs. Junior declined to drive whenever he knew he was still hot and knew I'd always pay for a taxi for him to get home and go and pick up the car myself. He got drug tested by the German traffic cops and came up negative, he was so pleased with himself.
@Edukator, it's been a while since i've been in country, they still zero tolerance on D and D?
We also know that alcohol causes huge harm both to individuals and to society.
There is a big social difference; the bloke who runs the local offy is not a criminal. People who sell drugs are.
I mentioned this thread to my wife who does safeguarding at a local High School. She told me a tale of a meeting a couple of weeks ago with the parents of a lad near 16. He has been getting into drugs and really likes it. He doesn't want to stop. He has been selling to pay for his habit and got into debt with some of the Manchester bad lads. He owed them £3000. They knew he had a younger sister, what primary school she went to, and what she was called. They offered to cut her up if he didn't get their money.
Could he not return the drugs? No, he sold some and he and his mates guzzled the rest.
The dad paid up.
Dad is now waiting for juniors 16th birthday at which point he is out of the house. For good. Kid has put drugs before family and enough is enough. He refuses to comply with any sanctions and Plod have been called when dad tries to stop him.
It's a slippery slope; it's good there have been some positives on this thread.
Yes - the big social di9ffernce is that alcohol kills thousands of our citizens every year
What you are talking about there is the harm from prohibition - not the harm from drugs
this is why I advocate a harm reduction approach - both for individuals and to society
Something I've thought increasingly as this thread has developed,
You can apply all the sanctions you like, but ultimately he's got to want to change. It has to come from him. Nothing else is going to work, he's just going to push back harder.
Even when he's seemingly on board (or saying that he is), he's still seeking concessions like the occasional joint which rather suggests to me that he's not there yet. It's like the recovering alcoholic going "I'll just have the one..." Sure son, you can have the occasional toke if you want, once you've been clean for six months.
How you get to that point though I've no idea.
Incidentally,
Have you shown him this thread? There's a lot of impartial advice on both sides of the coin from people who don't have a dog in this race, and it might also drive home how much of a worry he's causing his dad.
What you are talking about there is the harm from prohibition – not the harm from drugs
Laws can be so inconvenient.
especially when based on racial prejudice.
Look into the history of cannabis prohibitiuon
Evidence based practice, harm reduction. Our drug laws are neither
Can I suggest this thread is perhaps not the best place to discuss drug laws and policy?
apologies for my part in hijacking it
I'll show him this thread, not sure if he'll bother reading it or that it'd actually sink in. Driving will be a good one, his sis is already asking so I'm going to buy a cheap old banger and get down the local industrial estates.
Yes he's got to want to change, at the moment I'm not sure he's in that mind set and I've no idea how to get him there. He's a typical unmotivated grumpy teen, we've all been that in our lives. 16 and above is a big transitional phase, lots more responsibilites and choices.
All I can do is keep trying with positive things and hope that this will work, at the moment he just wants to chill out with his friends, which will almost inevitably lead to more drug usage.
The plan for tonight is that we'll see the Young Addaction counsellor (A friends son has the same counsellor and it took him 6 weeks to click) so I'm hoping that will start working. Also I have a survey to do on a job in Kettering, I've asked Laurie to come with me, it'd do him good to see what the old man does.
My contribution, for what it's worth, is similar to Cougar's immediately above.
The weed / other drugs / scamming aren't the problem, they're symptoms. The problem _seems_ to be depression, anxiety or some other mental health issue that he's self-medicating to avoid dealing with. That's why counselling and basically just talking is so important, and why sanctions and punishments and monitoring won't work in the long term, because they don't seem to be dealing with the heart of the issue.
The moment when you went in and found him fitting his new fish tank heater, and you hugged and talked, sounds awesome. I think that's what he, you and everyone else wants - warmth, kindness, openness and communication. It's also what we all shut down readily when we're pissed off, angry, tired, wanting to blame someone or wanting to avoid dealing with something within ourselves.
My family went through a big upheaval when I was 17 and I think it was only because I was too naive that I didn't get into drugs as a result, but I remember after months of fighting and arguing that a few sessions of family counselling, where people outside the family actually made us stop and listen to each other and find out and express the things we were _really_ upset about, that we started to change.
Every family's different and I don't mean to try and diagnose your problems from across the internet, but I think focussing on the drugs themselves can distract from dealing with the bigger problems - which need time, talking and love. I wish you all the best.
at the moment he just wants to chill out with his friends, which will almost inevitably lead to more drug usage.
New friends might help,at 16 does he have a partime job or is he going to college? When I went to college in the nearby city most of my friends stayed locally in the 6th form at the school, I didnt see them half as much. Also getting a part time job in the evenings gave me even less time to see them but the opportunity to meet more people and socialise outside of work. These two things saw me lose contact with people I would have called best friends but pick up new friendships I have had for years now.
Has he ever been mountain biking?
If I was a 16 yr old lad dealing with a few challenges in life and I found out my Dad was openly talking about me and these challenges, worts 'n' all, on a public forum. I'd feel let down by him and possibly quite f$$ked off about it.
Just saying.
@boomerlives is it actually possible to kick a kid out at 16? - I thought parental responsibility lasted until 18.
I can empathise with the OP - my step-son was dealing at the age of 18. He then went to Uni which we hoped would be a new start only to find that dealers were handing out "business cards" at the halls he was staying in at Manchester.
@timbog160 yeah, he used to love the biking, obviously being a yoof uplift is the way forward 🙁 I'll tempt him with BPW Wales soon, worst case scenario we go on a satruday, get back late and he's not going to want to go out on the saturday night, or the friday night beforehand for that matter as it's a good 3hr journey each way!
Maybe don't show him the thread, or at least check with your wife or whoever.
Might not be well-received.
is it actually possible to kick a kid out at 16? – I thought parental responsibility lasted until 18.
Apparently not. Under 16 the rozzers can bring him home and the parents have to take him in. (so long as there is no danger at home).
Over 16 the authorities have to deal - the parents can effectively wash their hands of him, if that's what they want. He'll be 'in the system'
It's an extreme step, but if there are other kids in the home being endangered then your options shrink and become less palatable.
In answer to greenskin, it's not zero tolerance on D and D in either France or Germany (drink an drive or drink and drugs?) except for the first couple of years after passing a driving test in France when alcool 0.2 is effectively zero tolerance. It's .5 otherwise in France and Germany. The UK is the highest allowed level in Europe IIRC.
On the drugs front there's a risk of failing the saliva test for cannabis for about 24 hours. If you're in an accident and they blood test the glow is several days. In Both France and Germany you'll get industrial quantities of shit to deal with if you fail a test.
@Edukator, ah makes sense then. When I was posted there I was a new driver, that'll be why we were told it was 'zero tolerance' as the limit was so low. Bit of artistic licence to scare us into not doing it. Doesn't surprise me the highest allowed level, we seem to be dragging behind continental europe in many ways.
On topic, I've applied for a couple of volunteer roles with a charity here in Leeds intervening and supporting those with substance issues. Hopefully I make the grade and can turn it into something meaningful. 24 years in the Army and I'd rather use my skills and knowledge to help others rather than make some douche in a suit richer.
England and ~Wales and NI Edukator not UK. Scotland lowered the limit a few years ago
On the drugs front there’s a risk of failing the saliva test for cannabis for about 24 hours. If you’re in an accident and they blood test the glow is several days. In Both France and Germany you’ll get industrial quantities of shit to deal with if you fail a test
The last sentence is very much true. A while World of shit to deal with.
As a father of 2 little ones, I have to say this thread is very scary in someways.
In how little I relate to any of it !
All this about not being able to or maybe not wanting to stop him taking drugs, there always going to dabble as a teenager, wanting to rebel against parents etc etc .
Means nothing to me.
Its not that I was nt angry as a teenager. There were plenty of kids at school I hated, plenty of things I wished I was better at, ie the usual socialising, being cool and talking to girls.
But i'd have never of thought of any of it as my families fault, they were generally doing as good a job as they could. I had a warm house, some good toys and decent holidays in Wales as a Kid what more could I ask from them ?
And I never thought of going against them while I lived at home.
Once I'd gone to uni I did smoke a couple of times, but that was about it.
If my kids turn out to have all these feeling of rebelliousness or anger towards me it would come as a major shock and I'd be totally ill-equipped to handle it.
The sort of issues I'm expecting are them wanting to play too many computer games or sit in painting warhammer models instead of getting outside and doing real stuff.
If my kids turn out to have all these feeling of rebelliousness or anger towards me it would come as a major shock and I’d be totally ill-equipped to handle it.
The sort of issues I’m expecting are them wanting to play too many computer games or sit in painting warhammer models instead of getting outside and doing real stuff.
I imagine he felt like that before this thread too. I imagine all of us are the same.... but these things happen and they happen to nice people.. Sometimes there's not a lot you can do about it.
He was allowed up town yesterday, meet me at 3pm as agreed, then the 6pm curfew passed. He was only 8 minutes late, but I saw him put something in the hedge. Couldn't find anything this morning though.
The ex came over for a brew, I saw Laurie ironing a top and thought nothing of it. One minute later I heard the door shut and he'd buggered off again. Went after him but he was long gone. Messaged him to say it's about time he stopped acting like a Muppet, and that dinner was at 6pm. He turned up at 5:45 slightly stoned.
So his newer mobile phone that I took to the police station can stay there for another week. I'll be searching his room tomorrow and burning anything I find. 20 months until he's 18 and can then go and find his own way in life if he's not stopped being a disrespectful idiot.
Forgot to mention he'd got at least a grade lower in every subject below his predicted for his mocks. He'd scrape into a levels as it is, so I thought maybe that would have got him a bit more focused.
Maybe it's just an escape at the weekend.
On the flip side his sister did amazingly, and is super focused. I can only nag so much, it's down to him.
It's an incredibly tricky situation, I used to be a care coordinator at a drug treatment project for just over a decade. We'd get terrified parents in a similar situation dropping in or phoning up practically daily (although we didn't work with people younger than 18, we'd have to refer them somewhere else).
From what I've read, I'd say you're playing it practically pitch perfect. Getting that optimum position between wanting to be there as a parent and letting the kid know that their behaviour is unacceptable is a difficult balancing act. I've seen youngsters where the parents didn't give a single, solitary s*i* come to their senses when it got very heavy, legally speaking. Then kids with every parental advantage going think they could behave how they pleased and go down a very sad route in life. And practically every variation in-between the two extremes.
I think we sometimes forget just how much youngsters change from one year to the next. A year is like a decade at that age. Hopefully, by this time next year all this will just be a memory and your lad will be studying hard for his A levels.
Another update. Police officer has informed me that there is evidence in the phone that Laurie has been buying coke and weed for his friends before Christmas. The police have to act on this. He's suggested that they need to arrest Laurie, drag him down the station, lob him on the cells for a few hours then call us and release him. To do this means they'll need to add it to his record, it'll only show up on an advanced check.
Anyone know the implications of this for future employment?
They have suggested we talk to them before going down this route, not sure what the other options are. If he sells something in the future that kills someone is struggle with the fact we had the choice and did nothing. As for his record, well that's been his choice so he'll have to live with it.
Wwstwd?
I find some tobacco, rizzla's, a lighter and an empty weed bag. Lobbed them all in the wood burner. After 3 hours he's now asking for the stuff back, I'm denying all knowledge.
He's pissed off, told me he hates me, his sister hates me, that's why I've got no friends. Going to be interesting when he wants to learn to drive in 8 months...
Wwstwd?
Cry. Give you a big hug.
It's sounding like he doesn't want to speak to you. It also sounds like if things continue this way, he's going to be taken to the station anyway, likely with gear in pocket or system.
I'm thinking that it happening with some officers who understand the situation in control is a better way of it happening.
I have no useful advice. But as a father of a somewhat wayward son, I can say it does get better eventually, but it hurts a lot along the way. When I say better, I mean after leaving home.
Harsh as it sounds, at this juncture I can't help but think that a few hours in the local nick might do him some good. Boy needs to learn that actions have consequences.
And I sure as shit wouldn't be funding / helping an addict learn to drive.
Nothing useful to add @jonesyboy apart from agreeing with matt above. Feel for you and your family, it sounds like the choices you've made so far have been right, so keep on trusting your instincts.
Oldnpastit, I can see this one going that way quite rapidly which is really sad. So frustrating to see a kid make such stupid decisions.
Halfway through typing that I heard him trying to get into my safe as that's where he thinks his baccy etc is. I flew downstairs, grabbed him by the scruff of the neck and shoved him out of the way. Got the safe back, and he'd already hidden a back door key previously. So he's now walked 3/4 of a mile in his socks to his mum's.
Why the hell would you need a joint that badly I'll never know!
Latest plan to keep him grounded is to take all his clothes away apart from school uniform. Also from a self perseveration point of view I now don't worry too much when he does a runner.
jonesyboy
As for his record, well that’s been his choice so he’ll have to live with it.
Wwstwd?
I think taking him to the police is nuts tbh.
Really? He's been dealing small amounts of coke to his friends, what next, pills and someone dies?
Each to their own, wouldn't be me.
Once he has been educated on his choices with his first discussion with the police then as soon as he kept doing it I would have informed police.
You can only take things so far, no point in showing/teaching/threatening the consequences then not going through with them later. I have a friend who has a family member in heroin addiction, started with the mild stuff when they were younger. Now it’s tearing the family apart as they have tried to help him for years and he’s taken everything they’ve given him and thrown it back in their face.
Made your bed, now lie in it would be my stance.
🙄
I think some time in the cells is the only option now. Whether that's in a "controlled" situation as the Police have suggested or getting busted for real in a few days time, I know which one I'd choose.
As the parent of a 16 year old lad, my heart breaks for you. So much love and hope invested in them. We've been so fortunate the way ours has turned out so far, MrsMC works in children's services so I hear about the other side every night when she gets home.
I believe from what you have told us that you have truly done the best you can for him, but there comes a point where you can do no more other than give them the options and support to make the right choices. Then it's down to them. And I fear you are reaching that point. You may need to be brave and let him face the consequences of his actions.
Heartbreaking - I have no real advice but my suggestion would be that whatever you do try and keep talking to him and keep the lines of communication open. Really do wish you the best of luck.