It was tough!
I was covering Mathew the entire race, as his is the only jersey I could see properly lol. My only mistake last night was that I waited too long to launch the sprint....
BTW Stephan Bouman, is a professional cyclist: https://www.zwiftpower.com/race.php?id=14518
http://www.procyclingstats.com/rider/Stephan_Bouman
Poor guy was taking a lot of stick last night 😆
Is Dave Brodmann (TFC) some sort of zwift legend ? He must've got over 20 thumbs during the race this morning. Worked though - he battered me in the finishing "sprint" (by having one 😕 )
@ zilog - 😀
I'm like Pavlov's dog; every time I get a "ride on", ...
(no wonder I can't muster a sprint)
Brod was doing a 200km ride a few Sundays back on a TT bike.. he was 170km in when i left him after having a chat.
Averaging 2.8w/kg at the time he was.... Obviously a handy rider.
I'm properly wiped out after that race this morning. Its hard work walking down to school to get my lad!
when you lot talk about points, you mean that cycligent site, right ?
I find it really clunky and non-intuitive - I know it's free and all and I'm not complaining, more wondering if I'm using it wrong
Yes mate. That one.
It bothered me once, but now I just dont care.
IMO its ridiculous as its only fair in single Cat races, if I race in an abcd race, the AB riders are taken into account? But that's daft, I'm not racing them. If I could, I'd be in A of course. So why is my result affected by them.
Today I finished just behind an A guy. He got -4 I got -9. That's just not right. He was last A, I was 2/3 back in C.
Scaredypants - yes its the cycligent website and yes its awful to use (ipad is anyway), it fails on me more times than it succeeds. I generally only try and access it once a fortnight mainly coz its a pain to use but also i still have no idea what it is.
Yeah, barely ever loads on Safari (Mac & iOS) so I looked at it a couple of times and haven't bothered since!
It's a crap idea anyway as it's not conducive to the way I want to use Zwift, i.e. brag about races where I've done well and quietly brush all the others under the carpet 😆
yeah, I agree
...(ish) - I think it works out where in the overall field you [b][i]should[/i][/b] finish and then gives points from there. Presumably the A rider is "Finn Achilles" - he seems pretty fast generally so surprising that he didn't get a massive deduction. Then again, he does have an AWESOME name 😀
I don't look at it except when it gets a mention on here. At least I'm above 1000 now; had a bit of a bad run (2 DNFs and a sprint for the wrong line in a "1 lap" race) which punished me, quite rightly
Still seems I deserved more than -9 for that!
just looked our man up on that site - he has 500-odd points !!
(single race in October lost him 220 😯 )
Zilog - agreed, maybe it could disregard the bottom 10% of your races or something to remove any *cough* technical glitches from your score
Weeksy, 2/3 of the points are based on absolute finishing position but 1/3 of the allocated points are related to a pre race forecast. So he was obviously closer to his predicted score than you.
I've read it twice and my head is still hurting 😆
http://zwiftrankings.com/vcr/client/help/help-overview
Calculation of PointsStrength of Field (SOF)
For each Race a Strength of Field (SOF) is calculated. The SOF is the sum of the Points associated with all Racers divided by the number or Racers (the arithmetic mean). The SOF is used to compute the total number of Points available for the Race.
Points Available
The Points available for a given Race are calculated by multiplying the SOF by 0.1 and then multiplying that by the number of Racers in the Race divided by 16. In this way the larger the Event the more Points that are available.
Points Based On Absolute Finishing Position (2/3 of available Points)
The top half of Racers receive positive Points, based on absolute finishing position, equal to 2/3 of the Points available. The bottom half of Racers receive negative Points, based on absolute finishing position, equal to 2/3 of the Points available.
Each half is broken into 4 quadrants. The Points available to the half are then distributed across the 4 quadrants as follows: 50% for the topmost or bottommost finishers, 25% for the next topmost or bottommost finishers, then 8% and lastly 2%. This has the effect of minimizing the changes for the 25% of riders finishing in the middle of a race and maximizing the Points changes for the 25% finishing at the top or bottom of the Race. Within each quadrant Points are skewed so that they become more positive or negative as you move away from the middle finishing position.
Points Based On Projected Finishing Position (1/3 of available Points)
Racers are ranked at the start of a Race by their Points. Based on this forecasted finishing position a Points Delta is computed. At the end of a Race the Racer's Points at the start of the Race are subtracted from the Points associated with their actual finishing position in the Race based on the Points rank computed at the start of the Race.
If a Racer finishes in the exact position projected by rank then their Points Delta would be zero as the Points at that rank position would be their Points. If a Racer finishes above their projected finishing position then they will have a positive Points Delta. Conversely, if a racer finishes below their projected finishing position they will have a negative Points Delta.
The positive Points Deltas are summed and used as the factor to assign Points based on projected finishing position as given by (Points Delta divided by positive Points Delta Sum times 1/3 of Points available).
Negative Points Deltas based on projected finishing position are divided by 2 to mute the effect of poor finishes by high Points Racers (it is easier to finish way down in the list then it is to finish high in the list). This also mutes the effects of mechanicals which would otherwise have a dramatic effect on the Racer’s Points.
Points Delta’s were used, as opposed to simply a delta of projected finishing position because finishing above a high Points Racer should provide a requisite bump in Points for the Racer based on the relative strengths of the Racers as opposed to a linear progression based on finishing position.
Points Bonus for Top Three Finishers
In addition to the above Points Bonuses are awarded to the top three positions as follows:
receives a bonus equal to 9% of the Points available
receives a bonus equal to 4% of the Points available
receives a bonus equal to 2% of the Points available
It's hard not to become a little bit obsessed by the ranking score which has meant that I have tended to focus on flat races - because generally I can stay with the front group and get a decent score.
But that is just silly, so I've started doing more hilly races - I'll be tumbling down the rankings in no time.
The guys who won c and 2nd got 10 and 7 points. That's my issue with it. They won their Cat and got basically not a lot.
Sure, I get winning A races is harder than C races, but where's the incentive if winning your race gets you 10 points.
I get bigger fields gives more points, but not everyone can plan their life to only enter massive races.
But don't forget that the w/kg based categories are entirely arbitrary and this aims to promote a fairer way of categorising everybody (the Divisions).
It's just a shame nobody has actually crested a division based race series yet.
The strength of field score means it's not just about the smaller drafts of riders in the less popular races, but also their relative ability.
So the points dished out were crap because the overall standard was crap 😆 😛 😉
It's just a shame nobody has actually crested a division based race series yet
Absolutely.
I enjoyed the fully split starts more, 3 mins later etc. Far too often you end up with a bunch of Bs and C's closing you down from behind, whereas if they were just CS you may hang on, with all the B riders, you're not.
I expect the Delivery feel the same with us C's pulling the odd D along who made a great start.
Of course, no system is perfect for all scenarios, but it could work better imo.
Over 400 riders in the 6.00 race 😯
Blimey, that’s a huge field.
That light snack I had an hour ago, it’s not settled very well , how close do I need the bucket?
Uh oh fans off
Not over your head!
at least, not over your head after you've used it
Could of done without the 10km ITT
Not sick
Yet
I’m going to describe that as educational!
Race was over almost as it started after I got off to switch the fan on. Managed to pace an ITT and had a good sprint with two others I caught under 2km put.
Watts per kg is up I think to 2.9, bonus.
Fair play for carrying on! Switch your fan on first and wear on old top until warm 😉
I’m not explaining CVR again 😆
It’s a fair system, negative points = you’re below expected result based of the field.
Bear in mind you’ve got a lot of riders showing up who have only just started - so people are likely to be shuffled around a lot.
It’s a fair system
Maybe when you're at the pointy end of A it is.
Try being built like a wrestler in C and tell me its fair.
I honestly don’t know what CVR is, it’s a 4x4 isn’t it?
I’m actually mid pack in C in the results whatever that means to CVR.
It's fair because it ranks you before you start based on your points thus far and then compares that prediction to where you finished.
It's a bit like writing to British Cycling and saying you should have got points just for turning up at Abingdon 😆
I am now fully set up and ready to go on zwift with my tacx 2240 after my trainer tyre turned up in Tallinn today (5 days to deliver here from wiggle!). Bought a fan yesterday, got some looks as there is already snow and ice about here 😆 Quick question, what sort of tyre pressures are optimum for turbos? And will a sick bucket be necessary?
Nope, it's just that I want a Cat1,2,3,4 and individual points for the Cats. That's why they do it how they do, otherwise none of the Cat4s would bother turning up as the Cat1 riders would be the only ones to get points.
I get your point. But that doesn't mean I agree.
100-110psi.
Sick bucket unlikely, you'll sweat though!
piemonster its a Honda CRV 😆
Weeksy my place has nothing to do with it, it's a system based off % of people allowed in a division. Therefore if you have new people signing up who are better than us, then we get bumped down a place. You can't get any fairer than that in my books??
You're being ranked on division, so the only time the other divisions bother you is if you beat a higher division (you'll have some of his points) or a lower division beats you (they'll have some of your points).
But whether you score -9 or 7 or 250 is irrelevant- the number is irrelevant.
What's relevant is how it, as a system, ends up ranking you in the Divisions. And I bet if you CVR stalked a few people you'd had close battles with, you'd be pretty closely ranked.
You're being ranked on division, so the only time the other divisions bother you is if you beat a higher division (you'll have some of his points) or a lower division beats you (they'll have some of your points).
In a race today with 28 Cs, only 3 riders got + points. There were a couple of 0 and the rest were negatives. That also included 6 who DNF and therefore got a load of negative. So if what you're saying is true, then the people who finished and finished high should have got + points.
I've won C races before and got 0 points. Yes, of course you can say that's because of the strength of field etc, but clearly you're not ranked and given points purely on your category.
But whether you score -9 or 7 or 250 is irrelevant- the number is irrelevant.
What's relevant is how it, as a system, ends up ranking you in the Divisions. And I bet if you CVR stalked a few people you'd had close battles with, you'd be pretty closely ranked.
I'm guessing not in my case as I've had 4 dnf, which is 120-130 down as they're -30 or more. However in other cases that may be true.
I get frustrated as I race hard, pick up a top 5 in C and get 6 points. Race just as hard today, battle well and get -9. I wasn't any worse today than the other day, arguably in the last 5 minutes I did better as instead of giving up, I pulled 2 guys in and beat them.
This is why I don't care about CVR.
But it's a ranking system. The points are merely a tool to create accurate rankings- not a reward for finishing in a particular spot. You raced a small field against a load of poorly ranked riders so the points were never there for the taking.
Their A,B,C or D category is irrelevant and simply reflects their ftp not their ranking.
It is "sort of" right/fair - if all the Cs score zero or negative points, then they'll still all appear in similar parts of the league table. There won't be many points between a fast C and a slow one but if you only gain or lose a handful of points each time then that small gap takes some closing
At the top end I assume they ALL score highly, so it's like being a merchant banker - you get paid a shitload but you're still only as rich as the guy at the next desk ... 'til you lose a shitload in one or two goes like our man Finn (might be intersting to see how fast he or someone like him can get back up the lists, assuming he's got no health issues or whatever holding him back)
Whether it matters that the gap is massive between the "A" haves and the "C" have nots is down to what the numbers mean to you - I suspect that it is possible to climb out and get up the rankings if you genuinely improve loads; the trouble for you (and me) weeksy is that if you're already racing close to your potential then all you can do is avoid DNFs and scrabble about for handfuls of points
[crosshair](or train in a better way)[/crosshair] 😀
It's top 50% who score positive so in a race with a small A field or a KISS Second Base race etc etc then there are more chances for a C to score. How much they score depends on how many show up and how good they are.
Granted, second base races I can potentially get decent points, but they're only once a fortnight.
Weeksy- you can already see where you stacked up against the other C's in the race on Zwiftpower. What the CVR mathematicians have tried to address is how worthy that performance was in the context of every racer on Zwift.
That's no mean feat and my hunch is there won't be many ways to achieve it as fairly and NONE of them will end up giving you more points for an average finish in an average race with an average bunch of competition 😆
for an average finish in an average race with an average bunch of competition
It was hilly. 😥
And I'm 46! And fat!
I'd think of it like categories on a track day. If you rock up to Silverstone early in the year, before BSB starts your not going to want to be in the fast group. You'll have all the big hitters form the lower BSB classes doing their pre-season testing. But show up mid-summer, when there are loads of BSB/club races on, and you'll just have local punters like us. In that case it would be a different kettle of fish.
So if you have raced on Zwift during the summer the hardcore 'real life' crowd have been missing. But around now is when all the people with fancy tan lines are going to start showing up in Zwift. Chances are you'll take a hit in rankings no matter how well you ride.
But TBH I doubt I would ever look at it if I were racing. So agree with you there 🙂
Yes Scaredypants- you've got it 😆
If you want to score more points relative to everyone else racing on Zwift then you need to get relatively fitter compared to everyone else on Zwift.
That's just like real life. It doesn't matter if my ftp is +30w, what matters is that I finish the race better relative to everyone else who shows up 😉
It was hilly.And I'm 46! And fat!
Quite! So for that race on that day- you don't deserve any points 😆
They could run the same algorithm for each category separately but could even make things worse. You're then open to naughty B folk sandbagging their way to the top of the C league, maximising every result but just keeping within the limits.
I'm sure that happens already but imagine if the reward was "top of the worldwide C league" rather than just winning a single race - and the alternative was "look at me, I'm 434th in the worldwide B league".
But now replace Cats ABCD with Divisions P-10 and you've got it 🙂
May I say anyone wanting an explanation further on in this thread needs to be reverted back to these pages 😆
Unfortunately CVR is still open to abuse from those that are using ridiculous configurations/weight adjusting etc as it still relies on Zwiftpower's policing.
Well that kind of happened to me! TFC ran a series the other year. I started as a legit C but was pushing the boundary before the end. Like f*** I was going to upgrade myself before the final round 😆
And the w/kg boundaries are crap and arbitrary anyway.
I've often said it would be better to just have mass start races and let people filter the results based on their own criteria. That way you could always be the best 46year old fat scouser from Berkshire Weeksy 😉 😛 😆
Straight quote from your online dating profile?And I'm 46! And fat!
Out of curiosity, what are people’s HR averages like in races?
Overall and once up to speed!
Alright lads, I think i'm a bit late to the party here.
Is there a tutorial for Zwift? A STW club that i can join or anything like that?
First two efforts were a bit of a learning experience, need a bigger fan!
https://www.strava.com/activities/1265810055
https://www.strava.com/activities/1267214350
165-169 for me when racing as an average.
Peaking in races at 176-178
my tested max seems to be 182.
scaled - Member
Alright lads, I think i'm a bit late to the party here.Is there a tutorial for Zwift? A STW club that i can join or anything like that?
First two efforts were a bit of a learning experience, need a bigger fan!
Search in Strava for STW Zwifters.
Plenty of us have STW in their Zwift names and if you enter Zwiftpower, you can edit your profile and add in STW into the 'club' so it shows in Zwiftpower too.
Tutorial in what context buddy ? It's pretty much just get on and ride as you've found. Racing is slightly more complex, but any questions, throw them in here and one or more of us will answer, it's a pretty well used thread, so you rarely have to wait long.
Similar which makes sense being a similar age.
For yesterday in the second half I just aimed for 170 and held it there. Maxed out at 189, no idea what my tested Max would be. Or my resting for that matter.
Ha ha, Strava has pulled an image of yesterday’s race and added it to my log.
It’s just me, alone in the volcano!
I've never got mine over 183 in any test, sprint intervals, or racing etc.
Resting is 42-44
Part of me would love some of these crazy HRs i see with NAthb and Crosshair... but it's irrelveant sort of in the context that it's only in relation to your maximum and where you're racing that matters ?
From my own context, i know if i go over 170, then i'm drawing on reserves and can't sustain it for a terribly long time, it also affects my overall performance that once i get into the 'red' then i'm screwed as i can't maintain the power/pace once i've been in there.
My threshold HR is 176-180 BPM and Max is up around 198.
Isn't Chris Froome's threshold like 150bpm or similar??? So it's pretty irrelevant to anyone but you 🙂
Jesper hit 205 in an SZR race he streamed last night!!
my absolute max (achieved on the bike, anyway) is 171
racing, average probably 160-165
Yesterday's race, up to 169 shortly after the start and up 1st half of the hill, then reduced, presumably after I was dropped & "coasting"
Last half mile up to 170 again
I'm 52, so I guess that 171 pretty much really is my max - fits with all the generalisations anyway
So it's pretty irrelevant to anyone but you
Yes, pretty much. It’s more idle curiosity really.
Although I am at the stage where I’m starting to set myself objectives and benchmarks. But those are set against myself, not Chris Froome 🙂
Weeksy- that's what I was talking about with your flat power curve. You're great at threshold work now but don't have many matches to burn above threshold.
My power isn't significantly better than it was 12 months ago but my ability to do lots of hard efforts way above threshold has transformed.
In real life terms, you're actually well equipped for XC and CX racing now where you pretty much ramp your HR up to threshold and keep it there constantly.
Also for TT's but perhaps not in the aero department 😉
Zwift racing with the stronger draft is more like Crit racing now- it rewards hard efforts (to follow the quickest bunch possible) and fast recovery (to do it again soon).
In real life terms, you're actually well equipped for XC and CX racing now where you pretty much ramp your HR up to threshold and keep it there constantly.
Thank you. But the reality is.... I'm well equipped to be distinctly average 🙂
I had the option to race Gorrick last weekend, but all i'd find out is that i'm slightly better than last time and still distinctly average 🙂
I must admit, i still have desires to improve... .but i think unless many things radically change, this is where i'll be now.
As in any racing I do my HR is averaging in the low 160s and a fairly steady line (my max being about 182). Basically I couldn't go a lot higher without blowing up. The only Zwift race I've done the last 4 km are ramped up to a 170+ avg race max was 177 at the finish line.
Is there a tutorial for Zwift? A STW club that i can join or anything like that?
There's [url= https://zwiftblog.com/ ]https://zwiftblog.com/[/url] and [url= http://titaniumgeek.com/zwift-user-manual-unofficial-running-updates/ ]http://titaniumgeek.com/zwift-user-manual-unofficial-running-updates/[/url].
It's mostly pretty intuitive, but there are odd things that you forget you ever didn't know after a few weeks like how power-ups and drafting and kit upgrades and challenges etc work.
Signed up for a 100km ride on Saturday.
Already working on my excuses!
Should be fine, as long as you don't try and got at 250w for the duration... If you're happy to drop down some watts, you'll make it with ease.
What layout?
I think my plan has been scuppered by the powers that be anyway.
Pass revoked!
If i were wanting to improve my fitness for racing CX, which of the workout plans do you think would be most beneficial?
https://whatsonzwift.com/workouts/
Over what timescale mos? What's your biggest limiter in races?
The two week Vo2 max booster looks brutally effective! Interestingly it gets you to set your ftp for the workout sessions to your five minute power as tested on day one- a clever way of scaling the workouts appropriate to your ability.
I'd say an FTP builder if you have time followed by that Vo2 max thing and then the final week of the 8 week race prep plan as a taper week?
Or dip into the 8 week race prep plan at whatever timescale you have left?
Probably between now and Jan. Its unlikely i am going to get to race again over the next few weeks due to work & family stuff.
Sweet Christmas:
https://www.zwiftpower.com/race.php?id=14530
My peak FTP was 339w and I was 3kg lighter back then... https://www.strava.com/activities/1268462364
That’ll learn me for not checking what route the race is on and for trying to rush home from work to race on Zwift lol...
I’m going for a nap...
I've had too much mexican food. Also going for a nap
(well done, BTW - and to Leeroy, though he appears to have defected from team STW to some other kack outfit)
Leeroy was in the lead group with me on Tuesday until the final selection on the downhill attack- seemed v strong!
Well done Nath, STW Wattage Bazooka for that effort!
Cheers guys!
[img] 
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T'was a long drawn out TT and I had absolutely nothing in the tank after crossing the line!
Cartwright is a monster, truly is ridiculous! Always fun trying to keep up with him during his warmup though 😆
In the words of Razz Prince, PhoneShop area manager - "Gold". In a 8:05am race, but still a gold...........until they shuffle the results about.