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eat_the_pudding - MemberWhy aren't they asking people to use a single gender neutral pronoun for everyone?
Because the actual point is to use the term that the individual would like you to use?
And to state the obvious, because nobody would do it, and a million people would scream about it. And it would be exactly the sort of thing that the papers currently have to make up, in order to get people to scream.
My Sister is at Oxford, over-thought, holier than thou PC-ness isn't unusual for the Union, it's only a suggestion - she's never heard Ze uttered by a real human being of any description and hadn't actally heard about this until I asked her about it.
Sex is what bits you're born with - what chromosomes you have.
It's really not that black and white, you know.
It's really not that black and white, you know.
Explain?
fgrom the wikipedia link
The gender taxonomy is a classification of the range of different levels at which humans vary in sexual characteristics. It is mainly used by medical specialists working in the area of sex research.[1] John Money and Milton Diamond are probably the best known researchers in this field. Money earned his PhD for research into human hermaphroditism and pseudohermaphroditism, now known as intersex conditions. The taxonomy starts at the simplest, biological level and traces differentiations expressed at the increasingly complicated levels produced over the course of the human life cycle.
Chromosomes (46,XX; 46,XY; 47,XXY ("Klinefelter's syndrome"); 45,X0 ("Turner syndrome"); 47,XYY; 47,XXX ("Triple X syndrome"); XXXX syndrome; XXXXX syndrome, 48,XXYY syndrome, 46,XX/XY mosaic, other mosaic, and others)
Gonads (testes, ovaries, one of each, ovotestes, other types of gonadal dysgenesis)
Hormones (androgens: including testosterone; estrogens, including estradiol, estriol, estrone; antiandrogens and others)
Genitals (primary sexual characteristics — see diagram for the "six class system")
Secondary sexual characteristics (dimorphic physical characteristics, other than primary characteristics)
Brain structure (special kinds of secondary characteristics, due to their influence on psychology and behaviour)
Gender identity (psychological identification with either of the two main sexes)
Gender role (social conformity with expectations for either of the two main sexes)
Erotic preference (gynephilia, androphilia, bisexuality, asexuality and various paraphilias)
My aunt had turner syndrome, she had a very tough life- my grandfather was did not handle it well, and died from a heart attack at 50, frustratingly my family never spoke about her condition at all, and I wasnt aware thats what it was until she died.
Yup, gender identity is a different thing to chromosomes etc ("sex").
Explain?
This isn't what I was looking for, but it's on similar lines.
Also there's this sort of thing:
http://anthro.palomar.edu/abnormal/abnormal_5.htm
TG people don't trans because they fancy a change in the same way that other people dye their hair. There's a brilliant article I read a couple of weeks ago about someone who was gender reassigned shortly after birth, with surgery and hormone treatments, and their subsequent struggle. Really eye-opening, I'll post it up if I can find it.
Because Im a pervert, I'll quite happily accept intersex shower and changing rooms.
I'm not sure how the majority of biological women would feel about that.
It'll certainly be interesting watching older school feminists and LGBT types heads explode with rage.
Giggidy.
I love the idea that people transition, or even outwardly express any transgender identity "on a whim". Seriously, do people really think it's like that? They would choose to live with a hell of a lot of hate and potential violence, just because they fancied a bit of a change??
🙄
Rachel
TG people don't trans because they fancy a change in the same way that other people dye their hair.
I never said they did, that would be ridiculously trivialising their situation*. And I'll freely admit I said "chromosomes" when I should have said various genetic, biological and physical features which in the majority of cases identify the male or female of the species.
However the problem of identification still occurs - if anyone can self-identify as female or male, then provision of any services or support intended for one of those sexes becomes difficult. It's a complex problem.
*There are some people who do it for kicks, too, though.
It'll certainly be interesting watching older school feminists and LGBT types heads explode with rage.
TBH, they're probably a lot more likely to be cool about it than the great unwashed. IME it's generally the heteronormative folk who get bent out of shape about it, rather than people who have been dealing with sex / gender stereotypes and prejudices their whole lives.
However the problem of identification still occurs - if anyone can self-identify as female or male, then provision of any services or support intended for one of those sexes becomes difficult. It's a complex problem.
Are there men going for mammograms or women requesting vasectomies?
What gender-specific services are being offered where it would be an issue?
Because Im a pervert, I'll quite happily accept intersex shower and changing rooms.I'm not sure how the majority of biological women would feel about that.
It'll certainly be interesting watching older school feminists and LGBT types heads explode with rage.
Most swimming pools have mixed changing areas, where everyone gets a cubicle. Where's the problem?
Mixed sex naked saunas aren't exactly uncommon.
various genetic, biological and physical features which [b]in the majority of cases[/b] identify the male or female of the species.
Let Me Emphasise That For You. What about everyone else?
if anyone can self-identify as female or male, then provision of any services or support intended for one of those sexes becomes difficult.
It doesn't, it's ridiculously easy to provide those services, it's prejudice which complicates the issue. People don't "self-identify" for a bit of fun, they do it because that's [i]who they are.[/i]
It's a complex problem.
... is the point I was trying to make. There's plenty of people who think you're male of female depending on whether you've got a meat and two veg or not, and it's Not That Simple.
On a serious note Mike, wasnt there a massive spat about this between feminists and LGBT activists in the States?
With safe spaces taking off, the only way I can see of dealing with it would be to provide three changing areas - one mixed and two that arent. There are religious sensibilitiws to take into account as well.
The UK and US arent France and we can see how wellixed changing rooms have gone for them in regards to their recent influx of migrants.
What gender-specific services are being offered where it would be an issue?
Off the top of my head:
- Trying to get more women into STEM subjects
- Personal care for the elderly where a male or female carer is requested for reasons of modesty
- Sports where men and women compete separately
- Quotas for boardroom jobs
I'm sure there are quite a few other examples. Mostly, because society is biased against women, these are services intended for them.
My aunt had turner syndrome
mine too not that it makes any difference to me.
On a serious note Mike, wasnt there a massive spat about this between feminists and LGBT activists in the States?
Some feminists (TERFS?) are less than enlightened on trans issues.
With safe spaces taking off, the only way I can see of dealing with it would be to provide three changing areas - one mixed and two that arent.
Or cubicles.
There are religious sensibilitiws to take into account as well.
Bottom of the list.
Trying to get more women into STEM subjects
This isn't really a gender issue, I've given talks at schools about STEM and a lot of people both male and female just aren't interested.
Just to put a slant on it, when I did my MSc and then PhD I was the only bloke in the lab other than my supervisor. Girls do go into science but a lot don't bother doing it as a career (as do boys). My degree course was about 50/50.
Mike, I'd wager there are more religously conservative Muslims in the UK now than there are trans people - so in a multicultural society they wont come at the bottom of the list in terms of being provided for.
It's a great ide but in reality as soon as a member of the subtype of males who is genetically suspyible and social conditioned to use sexual violence - then there will be massive outrage - I don't see it as being a good idea in reality.
I don't think cubicles would change many peoples feelings about it either.
What gender-specific services are being offered where it would be an issue?
Off the top of my head:- Trying to get more women into STEM subjects
- Personal care for the elderly where a male or female carer is requested for reasons of modesty
- Sports where men and women compete separately
- Quotas for boardroom jobsI'm sure there are quite a few other examples. Mostly, because society is biased against women, these are services intended for them.
I teach a STEM subject. I have had zero lads pretending to be trans in order to access any kind of 'girls into science' event.
I'm not sure how many trans care assistants there are, but I'm sure it's possible to not send trans care assistants to transphobic elderly people.
Is the Olympic women's 100m finals full of blokes desperate for the glory? Or, are there one or two edge cases where delicate consideration of rules and regulations need to be considered?
Do we have gender quotas for boardroom jobs? Maybe we should also have trans quotas?
I'd also argue that if you do put Muslims off going to public places like awimming pools, you further alienation and likely fuel extremism.
Mike, I'd wager there are more religously conservative Muslims in the UK now than there are trans people - so in a multicultural society they wont come at the bottom of the list in terms of being provided for.
It's okay, they won't be forced to be trans.
It's a great ide but in reality as soon as a member of the subtype of males who is genetically, evolutionarily and social conditioned to use sexual violence - then there will be massive outrage - I don't see it as being a good idea in reality.
Are we worried that violent, aggressive blokes will pretend to be trans so that they can get into a ladies' toilets?
I don't think cubicles would change many peoples feelings about it either.
Every swimming pool I've recently been to had changing cubicles. The person in the next cubicle was entirely anonymous. As far as I know, nobody cares.
I'd also argue that if you do put Muslims off going to public places like awimming pools, you further alienation and likely fuel extremism.
So, into which mixed-but-gender-specific changing room does a trans person go?
See above post.
I think that its hilarious that you think that one minority ahould be catered to at the expense of another - when a compromise ought to be found.
You Islamophobe 😀
@northwind "Because the actual point is to use the term that the individual would like you to use?"
Am I allowed not to care? If gender neutral isn't sufficient then what point are you actually trying to make.
If you want to say something important about yourself then maybe have an interesting name instead?
See above post.I think that its hilarious that you think that one minority ahould be catered to at the expense of another - when a compromise ought to be found.
You Islamophobe
Are Muslims against changing villages then?
I don't think cubicles would change many peoples feelings about it either.
Why? It's not just a room for one gender, it's a room for one person. If you can get more segregated and personalised than that I'd like to see it.
We went to a leisure centre in France in the summer. The system they have there is a long row of cubicles with a door front and back which separates the pool area from the rest of the building. You go in the front door in your civvies, get changed, then exit out of the back door in your swimwear. It works well and I'm really, really struggling to see how anyone would reasonably object to it. They also had a number of double-sized ones, so families could use them (and I assume, people with accessibility requirements). I think it's pretty common too, a different centre we went to a couple of years back had the same system.
Mike, I'd wager there are more religously conservative Muslims in the UK now than there are trans people - so in a multicultural society they wont come at the bottom of the list in terms of being provided for.
"We shouldn't make sensible provision for trans people because the Muslims wouldn't like it" manages to be insulting to both trans people and Muslims.
I know plenty of religiously conservative Muslims. Funnily enough, they have no problem whatsoever with working and socialising with gay people, Jews, Christians, or any other social group whom Muslims are "supposed" to hate. Most people, from any background, are decent and tolerant.
On a practical note, for cultural reasons to do with modesty, the Muslim men at my gym tend to use the cubicles for changing anyway, whereas the non-Muslims use the communal areas and let it all hang out. If a trans person were to come in and change, I doubt any "conservative Muslim" would even notice. Nor, I'm sure, would anyone else.
But yes, there will always be a vocal minority of extremists who oppose tolerance and equality. And the rest of society, rightly, ignores them.
We went to a leisure centre in France in the summer.
Don't get me started on the French! 😉
Frenchist.
If French people pretend to be Germans to get into the Olympic toilets, it might offend the Amish.
[url= http://www.qwghlm.co.uk/toys/dailymail/ ]ARE TRANSEXUAL CYCLISTS GIVING OUR SWANS AIDS?[/url]
Can't remember anyone having issue with me being in female changing rooms early on in my transition. That includes the pool in Morzine, which was a bit scary (for me) as it was full of kids.
Rachel
Not even transnationality toilet champions?
eat_the_pudding - MemberAm I allowed not to care?
Of course you're [i]allowed[/i] not to care. There's any number of ways in which we're allowed to be pricks.
Allowed isn't the question. Caring about the affect our actions have on other people is just basic human decency, we shouldn't need to be coerced into good manners.
Northwind - Membereat_the_pudding - MemberAm I allowed not to care?
Of course you're allowed not to care. There's any number of ways in which we're allowed to be pricks.
when you quote somthing you should really have it in context, I've got no idea what he doesn't care about and why that makes him a prick?
poah - Memberwhen you quote somthing you should really have it in context, I've got no idea what he doesn't care about and why that makes him a prick?
You could read the thread?
eat_the_pudding - Member
Am I allowed not to care?Of course you're allowed not to care. There's any number of ways in which we're allowed to be pricks.
Allowed isn't the question. Caring about the affect our actions have on other people is just basic human decency, we shouldn't need to be coerced into good manners.
Wow... overreaction much.
My attitude [if you bothered to read my previous comments] is that the perfect situation is one where the default position is that I don't have to care about someones gender (nor they about mine).
Also that a gender neutral pronoun for everyone would be the simplest most consistent solution to the whole issue.
Care to explain how that makes me an uncaring prick? You disingenuous fartnozzle?
Play nicely, children.
But I don't identify as a child. How dare you call me that?? 😉
Edit - okay, I do act like one...
Rachel
"We shouldn't make sensible provision for trans people because the Muslims wouldn't like it" manages to be insulting to both trans people and Muslims.I know plenty of religiously conservative Muslims. Funnily enough, they have no problem whatsoever with working and socialising with gay people, Jews, Christians, or any other social group whom Muslims are "supposed" to hate. Most people, from any background, are decent and tolerant.
Whilst I am mostly being a dick - I also agree, I think the left can be guilty of the racism of low expections sometimes. I do think however, that instead of basing your opinion on the word of a couple of muslims - perhaps they and other minority or vulnerable groups (eg rape victims) should be asked what their opinions are in a slightly more robust manner, before we rush into pushing for unisex bathrooms and changing rooms up and down the country. In theory, I like the idea - as I'm a mildly left libertarian universalist that loathes the new fashion for identity politics whether it's white identity politics or martian identity politics 🙂 and believe that a certain set of core values are good for the entire planet. In a perfect world, it would be nice to treat everyone on an individual basis. In a utilitarian reality, we need a system that is as inclusive of as many disenfranchised groups as possible - especially if one group feels so alienated that some of the groups subcultures have a mild correlation with things that go bang on trains.
instead of basing your opinion on the word of a couple of muslims
A couple of fictitious Muslims that never existed outside of tabloid headlines, you mean?
A couple of fictitious Muslims that never existed outside of tabloid headlines, you mean?
Say what you will Cougar, but personally - unless the bathrooms had cameras - as a student I wouldn't have been caught dead having to walk into a bathroom at 3AM by myself for there to be a passed out female student in there - for obvious reasons. Without some serious thought put into the consequences of such a decision, I don't support it.
This is the same forum where the overwhelming consensus seemed to be that women should be automatically assumed to be telling the truth in regards to rape charges.
eat_the_pudding - MemberMy attitude [if you bothered to read my previous comments] is that the perfect situation is one where the default position is that I don't have to care about someones gender (nor they about mine).
But that's not the real situation so... We have to live in the real world and deal with real people. And that means that not caring would make you a prick.
Though maybe it's not clear- I didn't say you're a prick. I said if you really don't care about hurting people around you, you're a prick. I very much doubt that's you. (other people in the thread, well)