Forum menu
[url= https://ousu.org/news/article/6013/OUSU-Statement-The-Use-Of-Gender-Neutral-Pronouns/ ]Press release from the oxford union[/url]
There ought to be some sort of valour medal for people who take a stand on the internet for their right to hypothetically call a trans person by the wrong pronoun if they ever meet one. These people are our last, best line of defence against a future that isn't similar to the 1950s.
Rachel's patience is commendable as ever.
[quote=BigDummy ]There ought to be some sort of valour medal for people who take a stand on the internet for their right to hypothetically call a trans person by the wrong pronoun if they ever meet one. TBF, I don't think anyone is asking for that right. However, I can see that having more than a handful of options is likely to prove problematic, especially as language evolves.
How surprising! Well, I'm sure we can look forward to retractions from everyone...
jimjam - MemberA socialist utopia. Obviously.
What has socialism got to do with it? Considering you keep going on about New York, that hotbed of radical socialism... You don't have to be a socialist to treat people with respect.
http://nonbinary.org/wiki/List_of_nonbinary_identities
There's 56. Interesting mix of cultural variations.
Not entirely made up is it ? It's a policy for use at Student Union meetings.
It is a sign of our times there are potentially many thousands of people dying in Allepo and OUSU is publishing guidance about gender "words" most of which are made up.
There's possibly somewhat less that the Student Union can do about Allepo than they can do about the people dying on their campus. Maybe that's why?
Oh - and all words are made up - you do know that, right?
Rachel
It is a sign of our times there are potentially many thousands of people dying in Allepo and OUSU is publishing guidance about gender "words" most of which are made up.
What allthegear said... you clearly understand that there's no queue for problems where the most serious have to be dealt with first otherwise you'd be an idiot. You, just for a change, are being difficult, one problem has nothing to do with the other as you know.
A lot of people are showing that being a **** is no indication of whether you have one or not, which is quite pertinent given the topic.
What's wrong with "oi"?
Doesn't matter who it is that way.
allthegear - MemberThe vast majority of trans people totally understand that it's sometimes difficult to remember - I get it wrong sometimes!
Could you have a chat with my mate Ruby (nee Neil) and point out it would be a lot easier to remember to refer to her as "she" if she shaved off the beard?
Cheers.
💡
Not entirely made up is it ? It's a policy for use at Student Union meetings.It is a sign of our times there are potentially many thousands of people dying in Allepo and OUSU is publishing guidance about gender "words" most of which are made up.
How characteristic of you to take the least thoughtful, least flexible, least progressive, least enlightened, least proportionate and least compassionate position on any given subject.
Where's mrsfry?
Ze would have sorted this out.
So we have to establish two things here...
1) What's the single most important issue in the world today- the student union has to get right onto fixing that, and not talk about anything else til they do.
2) Exactly which minorities and special interest groups is it OK to not treat with respect? This is a perfect storm here, students AND trans people, great, they're both definitely on the list... But I think we need to know exactly who is and who isn't allowed, I'm worried I might innocently attack a protected minority when I think I'm legitimately attacking an Other.
hammyuk - Member
What's wrong with "oi"?
Doesn't matter who it is that way.
My dog would be offended. It thinks that is its name.
Identity is something that requires mutual agreement
Does that mean your chosen identity is invalid unless I (and everyone else) agree with your choice? Surely it's not up to me to tell you who you are?
I can't really see the problem in referring to someone using their preferred terminology. It's no skin off my nose.
How much does ze charge or should that be zee charge?
kcrDoes that mean your chosen identity is invalid unless I (and everyone else) agree with your choice?
If I choose to identify as a fox (otherkin are people too), my fox identity is invalid to you unless you agree to engage with me on those terms. Or it becomes enshrined in law that I can force you to do so.
kcrI can't really see the problem in referring to someone using their preferred terminology. It's no skin off my nose.
If you're an employer or retailer, or university lecturer who could find themselves in court for misgendering someone it might be a problem for you.
Faith restored
In this situation, and in light of the factual inaccuracies published, we would like to highlight that our support for trans students includes respecting neopronouns and non-binary identities. We would also like to clearly state that we would never tell anyone to use ‘ze’ pronouns instead of ‘he’ or ‘she’ if ‘he’ or ‘she’ is the pronoun someone wishes to use. That would be misgendering and would likely have the biggest impact on individuals (ie, some trans students) who may already be struggling to get people to use ‘he’ or ‘she’ for them. It would be totally counterproductive.
Recent studies are suggesting most people are gender neutral. Fascinating subject.
Recent studies also suggest that people who make sweeping statements and don't quote their sources might as well just be making it up 😆Recent studies are suggesting most people are gender neutral.
Apparently some men are starting to shave their legs....
I'm an ultra athlete trapped in a lazy gits body.
You know the rules.. if you're interested then do your own digging 🙂
But that doesn't answer what I said above.
Why aren't they asking people to use a single gender neutral pronoun for everyone?
A single pronoun makes sense and I could genuinely get behind that as an idea.
Having a fluid series of changable n plus 1 pronouns, just looks like a pointless, virtue signalling bun fight.
Unless virtue signalling is the entire point of the whole enterprise?
If you go down the road of adding more and more for every subdivision you have no argument against the people who want to identify as apache attack helicopters, tampons (Hey Charlie!) or plants.
You might think other peoples proclivities are silly or trivial or not deserving of the respect you demand for yourself. But giving legal force to your own demands for recognition might just come back at you in unexpected ways.
Neutrality in language (and before the law) should be the aim, not subdivision and singling out.
FTFYYou know the rules.. if you're interested then do your own dogging
Sounds a bit doubleplusgood?
Holding student union meetings in a new made up language isn't changing anything. What it is is ridiculous bollix. If someone is transgender etc they are perfectly entitled to ask to be addressed by name. We don't need new words to refer to people.
Eat up ya pudding. I agree but change is scary shit to most. Instead of fixing things we over complicate them for short term patches.
Sweden have made some interesting changes along the lines you speak of.
Holding student union meetings in a new made up language isn't changing anything. What it is is ridiculous bollix.
Just as well it never happened then, hey?
Please can we stick to "one" and the royal "we"
Anybody remember "wimmin"? Or "herstory". No, I thought not. It's PC gone.
in the latest Alistair Reynolds book one of the characters is referred to as ze, took me a few chapters to twig as it was the first time id encountered the word outside of allo, allo!
As its sci-fi that predicts the future better than anything- 😉 get used to it.
All you stick in the muds, will have to deal with the world changing around you in this case the 3rd, 4th... sex, 3 person babies are now a reality, we are still evolving after all
just try not to get too angry about it.
The pronoun used isn't the problem - people can ask to be referred to by any pronoun they like. No big deal.
The problem is when the pronoun you have - automatically or by choice - determines other things that happen in your life. What changing room you use, what sports team you play in, what education you can access, etc.
The problem is when the pronoun you have - automatically or by choice - determines other things that happen in your life. What changing room you use, what sports team you play in, what education you can access, etc.
Quite. It's why something I don't really give much of a thought to these days as I travel all around Western and Eastern Europe is precisely the thing that has me genuinely worried about being assaulted when I go to Baltimore next year.
Rachel
Well we already have a gender neutral means of referring to *anyone* namely "they" and "their". Admittedly when used referring to a singular person rather than a group then they are somewhat impersonal but they aren't intentionally or otherwise antagonistic.
As kimbers and bencooper note, society is built around two genders even though biologically that isn't entirely accurate as there is a very low level continuum between the two. There are some who see themselves as entirely without gender.
Yes, and when people can self-declare themselves to be a different gender, and therefore access things that are aimed at the other gender.
two genders even though biologically that isn't entirely accurate as there is a very low level continuum between the two
well biologically, for humans, there are only two genders male and female.
poahwell biologically, for humans, there are only two genders male and female.
Wow, easy on the hate speech there.
well biologically, for humans, there are only two genders male and female.
Two [u]sexes[/u] - and a small percentage of intersex people.
Sex is what bits you're born with - what chromosomes you have. Gender is what stereotypes you conform to. Sex is male/female, gender is masculine/feminine.
Wow, easy on the hate speech there.
you are kidding right?
. Gender is what stereotypes you conform to. Sex is male/female, gender is masculine/feminine.
they are interchangable particularly in speach and academic areas. However, given I don't discrimated between male/female for gender roles in a social context my comment is valid just like yours is.
When I went to sixth form, in the mid-90s, there was only one openly gay student.
I now work at the same sixth form. Not that many years ago, it became the norm to see girls kissing or holding hands, and openly talking about being gay. Lads are still less openly gay, but less so.
There are currently several openly trans students, and several less openly so. There are also a few talking about non-binary gender, in an open way.
I really hope that this leads to fewer mental health issues among the TGI+ community, as it has done among the LGB community.
Society moves on, and gets better.
jimjam - MemberWow, easy on the hate speech there.
just being silly now, just because you dont understand something doesnt mean you should mock it 😉
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_taxonomy
Two sexes - and a small percentage of intersex people.Sex is what bits you're born with - what chromosomes you have. Gender is what stereotypes you conform to. Sex is male/female, gender is masculine/feminine.
Good point.
To the people complaining, I wonder what it is you are really angry about. Surely no reasonable person would have a problem with following someone's request to be referred to by a pronoun of their choosing, whether if be a traditionally-gendered pronoun or a new one.
Furthermore, surely no-one would be insensitive enough to deliberately use an incorrect gendered pronoun to a TG person.
If we can all agree on the above, then what are we arguing about? 8)
If we can all agree on the above, then what are we arguing about?
You must be new here 😀