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This is the same forum where the overwhelming consensus seemed to be that women should be automatically assumed to be telling the truth in regards to rape charges.
You think they should be automatically assumed to be lying?
bencooper - MemberYou think they should be automatically assumed to be lying?
Yes, because that's the only alternative.
****.
ETA: **** you swear filter; calling bencooper a **** was perfectly justified. 🙂
sbob - Member
bencooper - Member
You think they should be automatically assumed to be lying?Yes, because that's the only alternative.
Well this has gone elsewhere, on that point making the presumption that the (alledged) victim is telling the truth means that a crime that is massivly under reported and often very difficult to report and that has been historically dismissed by police etc. may mean that more reporting is made, offenders are questioned and action taken. Like anything there may be cases where people make malicious accusations but unless there is compelling evidence that this is happening accusations should be taken serioulsy. A modern and sensible police force should be able to deal with these complaints in a way that both protects potential victims and gives the accused an option to present their version of events. Penalties may still apply for making false allegations.
Very reasonable post Mr Smith.
I stand by my prior though.
It was a shit tactic that Mr Cooper should have known better than to use.
I don't suffer fools or arseholes at this time in the morning.
I'm not sure how many trans care assistants there are, but I'm sure it's possible to not send trans care assistants to transphobic elderly people.
Knowing the care industry, I wouldn't be inclined to agree. That said, my wife's aunt works as an LGBT-specific care assistant (or for the agency that provides them) so they do exist. It's not just the assistants you need to consider either, the LGBT patients themselves have needs and can come under abuse.
as a student I wouldn't have been caught dead having to walk into a bathroom at 3AM by myself for there to be a passed out female student in there - for obvious reasons
I did, every damn night. You know what? Never once found a passed out female nor heard of anyone getting accused of anything.
It mentions a students union leaflet. Maybe things have changed... but... in my day...At Oxford there is the Oxford Union where real debating is done and would-be politicians hang out [...]
And lastly there is the NUS about whom no one, except a very few disorientated muppets who think they are somewhere else, gives a shit. So if someone says it is from a "student union leaflet", I suspect it is from some twit from the NUS, stranded in Corbyntopia....
You seem to be stranded in an episode of Brideshead Revisited. Things have moved on, grandpa!
My Sister is at Oxford, over-thought, holier than thou PC-ness isn't unusual for the Union
Ask her to explain to you the difference between the Oxford Union (home of pompous and unpleasant twits who will one day run the country) and OUSU (home of pompous but well-intentioned twits who won't).
But that's not the real situation so... We have to live in the real world and deal with real people. And that means that not caring would make you a prick.Though maybe it's not clear- I didn't say you're a prick. I said if you really don't care about hurting people around you, you're a prick. I very much doubt that's you. (other people in the thread, well)
I thought it was clear. I do care about how people are treated by others, but I genuinely don't care what gender someone chooses.
That doesn't make me a prick, that makes me an egalatarian.
When you say we have to deal with the "real situation", I know that the situation I advocate (a single pronoun for everyone) doesn't currently exist, but I think its a lot more achievable as an aim than special pronouns for everyone, which (as I've said) is virtue signalling nonsense.
Basically, I'm proposing equality, and you've jumped to the conclusion that I'm being discriminatory? Thats not as unusual as it should be, but its still silly.
Just to clarify, at university were these aingle use bathrooms or actual proper shared bathrooms? Im still not convinced, if the needs of society outweigh the needs of a very small minority such as the feelings of victimized women who are a large minority - then its not defendable as public policy. All public policy is a trade off. Also, how would you deal with the massively increased water usage from the large increase of loo fluahing? Keep the urinals and simply place a aign on them that says "urinal" so that men can effectively have two bathrooms? Water over use is a huge issue.
Where in any of this did we get onto use of bathrooms? It's really a non issue.
Rachel
Isnt the whole thing a non-issue Rachel?
The press release from Oxford cleared it all up, surely?
Oxford Union is an outstanding debating forum drawing high profile and powerful figures from around the world. Their youtube channel is well worth watching if you have the time.
The Student Union is very different indeed, lefty political wannabes. This "Ze" nonsesne sums them up.
I am certain there are things which are important to the transgender community which we could do to make their lives better and increase acceptance. I just don't think new made up words are the way forward, that's just an excerise in making the Student Union feel like they are doing something.
teamhurtmoreThe press release from Oxford cleared it all up, surely?
Not really. The original story was that students had been told to use 'Ze' pronouns. The press release denies that any such instruction was given, but confirms that they believe the use of "neopronouns" is the right thing to do. Unless the person in question wishes to be identified as "he" or "she". Because if you refered to a she who used to be a he as ze, that would be misgendering them.
[i]we would like to highlight that our support for trans students includes respecting neopronouns and non-binary identities[/i]
[i]we would never tell anyone to use ‘ze’ pronouns instead of ‘he’ or ‘she’ if ‘he’ or ‘she’ is the pronoun someone wishes to use. That would be misgendering and would likely have the biggest impact on individuals[/i]
[i] We also recommend that at events like campaign meetings, workshops and training sessions, people introduce themselves with their pronouns.[/i]
[i]emphasises that gender cannot be assumed[/i]
[i]Requesting that people state their pronouns, and do not assume the pronouns of others, is not particularly radical or controversial. It’s a standard practice, not just in Oxford but in student communities and LGBTQ-friendly spaces all over, and we encourage its spread. [/i]
In this situation, and in light of the factual inaccuracies published, we would like to highlight that our support for trans students includes [b]respecting[/b] neopronouns and non-binary identities. We would also like to clearly state that [b]we would never tell anyone to use ‘ze’ pronouns[/b] instead of ‘he’ or ‘she’ if ‘he’ or ‘she’ is the pronoun someone wishes to use. That would be misgendering and would likely have the biggest impact on individuals (ie, some trans students) who may already be struggling to get people to use ‘he’ or ‘she’ for them. [b]It would be totally counterproductive.[/b]
Case closed
Screw that! I can barely remember folks names, never mind what special snowflake identifier they want to tag themselves with. One for all and all for one!We also recommend that at events like campaign meetings, workshops and training sessions, people introduce themselves with their pronouns.
teamhurtmoreCase closed
Not really.
we would never tell anyone to use ‘ze’ pronouns instead of ‘he’ or ‘she’ if ‘he’ or ‘she’ is the pronoun someone wishes to use. That would be misgendering and would likely have the biggest impact on individuals (ie, some trans students)
that's just an excerise in making the Student Union feel like they are doing something.
Do you have your browser set to write-only?
This.
Story.
Never.
Actually.
Happened.
FFS.
As it happens, scotroutes, I'm in agreement with you on that one.
Our local Young Greens group have a bit of a thing for this. I'm the only person (that I know, who attends meetings) in the local party who uses a different gender pronoun that the one assumed at birth. Even so, I was roundly lectured by the Young Greens organiser for saying that having everyone introduce themselves with their name and preferred pronoun was just a bit ridiculous.
It's really easy - use what you think is right, until you are corrected. Then use what you are told. It's just good manners. If you are really unsure to begin with, quietly ask.
Rachel
Oxford Union is an outstanding debating forum drawing high profile and powerful figures from around the world.
It does. It also attracts a lot of w@nkers.
Do you have your browser set to write-only?
🙂 <notes down for future use>
Our local Young Greens group have a bit of a thing for this.
The Greens (and I say this as a party member) do like to tie themselves in knots over such things. In Scotland they have a male and a female co-convenor. Then it was decided that that was biased against people who do not identify as male or female, so it was changed to male and non-male, immediately offending lots of women.
Not sure what they've decided to go with now.
eat_the_pudding - MemberI thought it was clear. I do care about how people are treated by others, but I genuinely don't care what gender someone chooses.
Your "Am I allowed not to care" line was a response to me saying that we should use the term the individual would like us to use. So no, not clear at all, it looked and still looks like you were saying you don't care what people prefer to be called.
Do [b]you Cougar[/b] have your browser set to read only
https://ousu.org/news/article/6013/OUSU-Statement-The-Use-Of-Gender-Neutral-Pronouns/
Cougar did you actually read that link from earlier in the thread ? I did 🙂
It says quite clearly that OUSU have various working and guidance documents (of usage of such non-words) and that speakers at meetings can ask to be referred to using a specific pronoun.
As I said I am supportive of action in Transgender rights but these made up words are not it.
I was roundly lectured by the Young Greens organiser for saying that having everyone introduce themselves with their name and preferred pronoun was just a bit ridiculous.
Agreed, daft for everyone to do it but if someone has a specifc request / desire then that should be respected
scotroutes - Member
Screw that! I can barely remember folks names...
I have a similar problem. Relying on goodwill and good manners seems to work out, and where it doesn't who wants to know that person anyway? 🙂
Racheal - did they really lecture you on that? *shakes head in disbelief*
As you say I would try to take my lead from those affected.
As an aside I like the use of "bod"* as a gender neutral suffix as in "chairbod" "firebod" falls down on "ombudsbod" tho
When people ask me what I do and I reply " I'm a nurse" I still sometimes get " Oh a male nurse" to which I answer - " last time I looked"
* not an entirely serious suggestion
scotroutes - Member
Screw that! I can barely remember folks names...
So true scotroofs
The Glasgow University union had it's lower level area refurbished last year and had a gender neutral toilet put in. I't a single use toilet and I don't really see the point in it other than it saves you walking further down the corridor to the male/female bogs. The male toilet down there isn't particularly nice to use though. There is no UK law that stops a woman using a male toilet or vice versa.
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5 gender symbols? Can someone please explain to me which each represents and where the other 45 or so are?
Wouldn't it have been simpler just to have a sign with the single word Toilet?
No idea Scotroutes and I thought I was clued up on this sort of thing
I think those symbols are a bit disrespectful actually, two of them appear to be 'slag' and 'prancing fairy'
I was eating in a hotel last week, when there were several office Xmas parties going on. Glad to report that this gender neutral toilet stuff is really catching on. Several couples even went into the Ladies together rather than the stereotype of only ladies going for a wee together. They did seem to take rather a long time over it though?
sweepy - MemberI think those symbols are a bit disrespectful actually, two of them appear to be 'slag' and 'prancing fairy'
its why I used it lol
Good to see the GUU has a toilet especially provided for men, women, Theresa May, RuPaul and Fred Astaire.
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Your "Am I allowed not to care" line was a response to me saying that we should use the term the individual would like us to use. So no, not clear at all, it looked and still looks like you were saying you don't care what people prefer to be called.
For clarity, it's true, I don't care and you can't make me 🙂
I have the right not to care what someones gender is (i.e. I treat everyone equally regardless of their gender, colour, racial origin or the relative length of their fingers and toes etc.).
On the same basis I should also have the right to not care what they want to be called (with the exception of their name), if that designation is specifically designed to draw attention to attributes I am otherwise free to ignore.
A single pronoun (which is what I'm arguing for) gives everyone their undisputed right to their gender (of whatever degree, type, permanence/impermanence, biological, material or imaginary), and me the right to verbally treat them in the same way as any other human being.
I don't see that as a problem?
Do you?
For clarity, I obviously know that that situation (single pronoun) doesn't exist at the moment, but its the best solution, and going from 2 to 1 is not going to be helped by a detours to 70 or 100.
No, you're right, we can't make you. We will judge you, though.
🙄
Rachel
Carry on.
So whats wrong with equality exactly?
allthegear - MemberNo, you're right, we can't make you. We will judge you, though
How do you judge someone that is unbiased towards people? I don't care what sex or colour you are either. I do think the use of a single pronoun is pretty stupid and taking the whole PC thing too far. If you find he or she offensive you have mental problems.
All this talk of single use toilets is wasteful. Can they not be cleaned between uses?
poah,
I'm arguing _for_ the use a single pronoun to avoid confusion and offense, not for using current ones to offend people.
So thanks but no thanks.
allthegear - MemberNo, you're right, we can't make you. We will judge you, though.
🙄
Rachel
Evidently.
[url= http://reason.com/blog/2016/12/13/reed-college-professor-on-social-justice ]College Professor on Social Justice Left: ‘I am a Gay Mixed-Race Woman. I Am Intimidated By These Students’[/url]
[i]**** this cis white bitch." That's the message, you will recall, that Reed College students placed at the podium where Boys Don't Cry director Kimberly Peirce was speaking. Peirce is a queer, genderfluid woman—her movie, which debuted in 1999, is about the murder of Brandon Teena, a young transgender man.[/i]
eat_the_pudding
poah,
I'm arguing _for_ the use a single pronoun to avoid confusion and offense, not for using current ones to offend people.
So thanks but no thanks.
Until human beings stop being sexually dimorphic a single pronoun will only add confusion and offense.
Until human beings stop being sexually dimorphic a single pronoun will only add confusion and offense.
I didn't say that thin skinned semi-professional offense takers wouldn't be offended (In the same way that they probably are by "other people generally being different from me"), just that it was the best simplest solution.
Certainly better than identity politics bingo.
Did you get offended by the use of the word "you" at the beginning of this sentence?
It is /\ there if you missed it.
It was gender neutral 'you' know.
Did it feel bad?
EDIT: Sorry if 'you' were offended. I'll try to find a little willy drawing to put in the middle of the 'o' to make it more gender specific for 'you' if that helps.
eat_the_pudding - Memberpoah,
I'm arguing _for_ the use a single pronoun to avoid confusion and offense, not for using current ones to offend people.
So thanks but no thanks.
I've never been confused or offended by the use of words he or she.
Looking in at the world of LGBTQZ and student politics is fascinating and a bit scary, because of how angry and certain of their own correctness many of the participants seem to be - and how dismissive and disrespectful they can be to others.
I don't know if internet discourse has played a role in fermenting this kind of antagonism - but we've seen the disrespect people use on this forum when discussing suspension set-ups or tyre widths, so I have my suspicions.
Personally I'm open-minded on the subject of the OP to the extent that I don't really have a settled opinion, but I'll call people whatever they want to be called - within reason.
how angry and certain of their own correctness many of the participants seem to be - and how dismissive and disrespectful they can be to others.
It's the same with any demographic though; be they LGBTetc, Christian, Vegetarian, Feminist, French, Furry, there's always an extreme vocal minority that give the rest a bad name.
eat_the_pudding
Stop wasting yourself. I am fully in favour of equal rights for gay, bi-sexual or transgender people. The operative word there is equal. I don't have the right to demand people refer to me by a new pronoun of my choosing, nor should I.
I live next door to a lesbian couple and one of them is very butch. My children (despite my best efforts) always refer to her as "the man". She just laughs, which is pretty much how things should be.
There will be malicious people in the real world who might deliberately discriminate or belittle by misgendering someone. That's unfortunate but the way to prevent this and effect cultural change isn't by throwing up iron clad legal defenses.