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If a landlord were to go into a room, rented by a tenant, and remove an item owned by the tenant, then put it in the street, without the tenants permission would that be a crime? I presume it would be. Serious question, so some serious answers please...
Depends on what it is and what the agreement with the landlord is.
In most cases no he can't
I would say, oh my god definitely yes! It's your home, dude, you have rights!! What was it that got put outside?
When WOULD it be acceptable?
**** me yes.
simple phone call to the police and he is ****ed.
broke a few laws there..
1. you doing something illegal
2. you haven't paid bills for a few months
My uncle was renting a house out, the tenents wouldn't pay up, went for a few months then he went round when they weren't removed everything and changed the locks, left it all outside in boxes.
but thats about it, like i said most cases its a no
A tenant has the right to live in your accommodation without being disturbed. They have the right to have control over their home so that their landlord and other people cannot freely enter whenever they want to.Read more: http://www.tenancyagreementservice.co.uk/tenants-rights.htm#ixzz0nHByrrvF
Oh, and removing an item sounds like theft as well....
My uncle was renting a house out, the tenents wouldn't pay up, went for a few months then he went round when they weren't removed everything and changed the locks, left it all outside in boxes.
Illegal. Whatever your uncle may think. He may have a moral reason to do it, but not the legal right to.
He should have issued a notice to quit, then if they still hadn't moved, got an eviction notice served on them. Then, it's bailiff time. He was lucky not to get in a lot of trouble. Might not sound right, but the Law must be obeyed, simples.
In answer to the OP; basically, on the information you've given us, it would be illegal to enter someone's home without permission, and removing any of their stuff is theft.
So, don't... 😉
When WOULD it be acceptable?
Once the appropriate legal steps have been taken, and a repossession order has been served. Only on the date that order stipulates the tenant must vacate the property, is it then legal to enter and remove them and their property.
Should have elaborated but in my uncles case it was done properly, though lawyers, courts and debt collection agencies. Not big men with big bats and transit vans
Lyons so you rent a room or a flat, and keep your bike in the said room, the landlord/owner has called round and seen the bike and put it outside.
So he has entered without permission, and not in an emergency, and removed your bike, that is theft, as there is no proof that he just removed it out of the room, or was indeed intent on removing it to sell it on, and got delayed.
Get legal advice, phone the police and report it as theft, then look for somewhere else to live, quite quick i should reckon.
Depends on what he was planning on doing with that said "bike" whether or not it amounts to theft, not as straight forward down the line as that but may be other offences it not theft.
But surely 'theft' is taking something without the owner's consent, to deprive them of that thing? If they have something locked securely in their home, and it's put outside, that could constitute an attempt to deprive that person of said thing?
If the thing then went missing after it was put outside, it's the LL who will be done for theft, for sure.
Well project got it right... I a voicemail fro
my l.lord saying he had 'removed my bike. Rushed home to find it in the back alley. Along with a spare frame, forks and 2 tyres. All in around 3 grands worth. He just got a very very abusive phonecall. I'm moving out at the end of the month due to him not liking me keeping my bike in my room. Considering going to the police. I said if he does it again, I will.
WHAT? I wouldn't be waiting I'd get the f out of there, including not paying last months' rent but letting him keep the deposit (if that's how it works). Just becuase he is the landlord doesn't mean he can do what the f he likes! ooo landlords make me angry think they are the bees knees and can do what the heck they like.
I'd contact the police now and at least get it 'registered' - if you have a problem in the future you can then point to prior poor behaviour as well.
Do it now! Guy sounds like a right n0bber, do you have a lease or a licence? to live in the property. LL needs a reason for entering the property and would require to ask your permission to do so. If he doesn't like the bikes being in the room you rent and pay for then he would have to add that as a clause that your not allowed. Ask yourself what would you be doing if the bike then got nicked?
Let the police know what this guy is doing.
Lyons, that was just a guess of mine, strangely landlords hate bikes,report him to the police,even if they dont take action, you will have a report number and it may scare him into being more reasonable,but i doubt it.
yes it is. do it.
having been a landlord, I can advise that some tenants can be tw%ts as well. But as a landlord, no matter how tw%ttish the tenant is behaving, I couldn't just go in & "remove" things to teach them a lesson. No, 'tis theft, and quite a few other laws broken as well.
As said above the only way a landlord can remove your property from within the house/flat is with the assistance of the courts, eviction orders and bailiffs. But as you haven't got to that stage (have you?) he's bang out of order. Report it to the police as a burglary dwelling - now - and then find somewhere to crash for a couple of weeks, move out & report the landlord to the police. Tell them how you know it was him - "he told me so officer".
Probably then a case of your word against his, unless any other neighbours actually saw him doing it, but if he has previous...
Serious answer: it all depends on what kind of tenancy agreement you got.
I think that is the only technically correct comment on this thread...
Also check where your deposit is held, their is a new governmnet agency that now keeps hold of all deposits and then pays them out to the tennant, stops the landlord refusing to pay them.
Well, I have an answer phone recording... No, there are not any bailifs etc involved. Could I report it tomorow?
[i]Also check where your deposit is held, their is a new governmnet agency that now keeps hold of all deposits and then pays them out to the tennant, stops the landlord refusing to pay them. [/i]
that became law 3 years ago 🙄
Lyons, what kind of tenancy do you have? do you live with this landlord, ie in his property?
report it, 3000 quid is a lot to put in the alley.
I would have gone absolutely mental! Got told by an old landlord I couldn't keep the bikes in a house or if I did I had to get carpets cleaned or replaced a they were a little crapped up
Don't think this is crimnal but check with the rozzers.
Did he say why he did it?
Is it in your tenacy agreement that you can/can't keep bikes in your room?
Someone I know (not a friend) was leasing a flat out privately (this is recent and really happened). The tennant stopped paying his rent for about 4 months (I think). No agency involved and the (person I know) goes to the property with his keys, empties the flat, changes the locks and does one.
Cue 4 months and a court case later he was fined £25K, which took all of his Mrs' redundancy money plus had to sell his car.
Moral of the story? Don't be a ****. Couldn't have happened to a nicer bloke. ****.
Nothing in the tenancy agreemant... And it's the same as most student accomodation, I rent a room, and have use of the kitchen etc, don't pay bills etc... I did go mental, good job he wasn't there I believe.
well when you leave take all the fuses out of all the electrical items, subtle but satisfying
Sounds like a right sack of cocks.
Report him, if the police aren't interested they'll tell you so. You're moving out anyway, so what's to lose? (deposit maybe? And sounds like he's being a hassle, so i'd be considering not paying the rent and letting him keep the deposit)
Whatever else it may be, it's not theft. There's clearly no intent to permanently deprive, particularly since he phoned and said where it was, and simply entering premises isn't burglary if there's no intent to steal.
They usually have to give you notice by law to enter the property. I very much doubt they can move any of your property even if it is against the terms in the contract. Maybe citizens advice or someone could help.
johnners - Member
Whatever else it may be, it's not theft. There's clearly no intent to permanently deprive, particularly since he phoned and said where it was, and simply entering premises isn't burglary if there's no intent to steal.
+ 1
For a burglary the Police need to prove that he entered in order steal, cause GBH or damage something. Or once inside, he then stole something or inflicts GBH.
You haven't got a theft as there was no intention to permantly deprive, so nothing has ben stolen.
However if an item became damaged as a result of it being moved, eg dropped or left out in the rain; then IMO you would have a criminal damage.
Criminal damage can be both intentional or reckless. For example, leaving an electrical item outside in the rain would be reckless.
Has he mentioned the bikes before? Asked you to kindly remove them etc?
It'll be classed as a civil matter by Police, unless he's damaged any of your belongings.
@amplebrew - got to disagree. If my property was removed without my consent, I'd consider it theft. I strongly recommend Lyons informs the police.
The thing that would get me is if they had been nicked and they were insured your insurance may be null and void as they were left outside irresponsibly. Same as leaving your car unlocked or the keys easily accessible. I think a word first with the landlord is best o talk to CAB
Flaperon - Member
@amplebrew - got to disagree. If my property was removed without my consent, I'd consider it theft. I strongly recommend Lyons informs the police
Completely understand where you're coming from, but you need the intention to permantly deprive someone of their belongings for it to be theft.
The landlord called Lyons to tell him what he'd done and where the bike was left, so that intention wasn't there.
It is bang out of order what he's done, but I fear that the Police will tell you it's a civil matter.
Lyons - Have you checked your bikes and bits? Is any of it damaged as a result of it being moved?
You haven't got a theft as there was no intention to permantly deprive
Well, I don't know...s6(1) of Theft Act says:
(1) A person appropriating property belonging to another without meaning the other permanently to lose the thing itself is nevertheless to be regarded as having the intention of permanently depriving the other of it [b]if his intention is to treat the thing as his own to dispose of regardless of the other’s rights[/b]; and a borrowing or lending of it may amount to so treating it if, but only if, the borrowing or lending is for a period and in circumstances making it equivalent to an outright taking or disposal.
http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content.aspx?ActiveTextDocId=1204238
I don't have the slightest idea how the case law has been decided with regards to the Theft Act but in the civil law tort of conversion, for instance, joyriding in a van was considered "treating as if it were the thief's own", even if there was an intention to return.
I am cynical about the cops' likely enthusiasm to bother doing anything about this but on the other hand I am just guessing (=talking through my trousers) on that.
Can you sue for trespass and conversion in Small Claims Court? That would be where I started looking.
if his intention is to treat the thing as his own to dispose of regardless of the other’s rights
I [u]think[/u] the landlord would have had to have left the belongings somewhere were you'd be likley not to find them for it to be classed as diposing.
It's the fact the landlord called you that has probably thrown a spanner in the works.
You can twoc a bike, but only if it's for your own use, anothers use or allowing himself to be carried on it.
Lyons - I'd call the local Police just to see what they say, then pay the CAB a visit.
Wel, ima amazed the parts were still there, they were left in an alley, overlooked by a playing field, in one of the worst parts of hemel...
I think the landlord would have had to have left the belongings somewhere were you'd be likley not to find them for it to be classed as diposing.
As I say, I don't know how this has been decided in the past and have no practical experience, and I don't feel strongly about this (is that enough qualifications?) but I would have thought that a) disposal is just whatever happens after you finish actively dealing with it and b) the fact that the landlord chose what to do with the bike without reference to the owner's rights would tick both boxes.
But as I say, I defer to anyone who has experience/better knowledge, and I wouldn't want to suggest I feel very strongly about it, so...
Definitely conversion in tort law, though.
Just on the pedantic legal point i'm sure it ain't theft or indeed burglary damage, but it is the crime of twoc( take with out owners consent) section 12 theft act:-
"(5) Subsection (1) above shall not apply in relation to pedal cycles; but, subject to
subsection (6) below, a person who, without having the consent of the owner or other
lawful authority, takes a pedal cycle for his own or another’s use, or rides a pedal cycle
knowing it to have been taken without such authority, shall on summary conviction be
liable to a fine not exceeding fifty pounds."
Case law is clear that any moving of a car without the owners consent amounts to a section 12(1) offense so that will easily cover this scenario. However I'm prepared to believe you local police will not want to get involved, it is a clear breach of you tenancy's covenant for quiet enjoyment and there for gives rise to a civil action. I would suggest that as you can no longer occupy the property in the knowledge that your personal possessions are safe the landlord has fundamentally breached the tenancy agreement entitling you to move out recover your full deposit and any additional expenses.
(usual terms and conditions apply to all criminal advise all civil law is at least 20 years out of date and made up.)
As a landlord I can confidently say that your landlord could be heading for prison. This is harassment . Call cops and local council housing, keep the voicemail.
Sounds like you have a great case for playing 'hide the dook' when you leave, or the alternate version 'where's my kipper'.
Choose your weapon dook = poo, kipper = any fish. Your challange is to find somewhere to hide your chosen weapon somewhere it won't be easily found and has the greatest chance of omitting its foul odour.
Go...
I don't think it can be TWOC because it's not taken for use, but I do agree with crankboy that if you have a remedy it will be Civil, the right to "quiet enjoyment" is a good startpoint. I'm pretty sure the police will not be interested unless you make a "very very abusive phonecall" so be careful with that side of it.
I'm [u]not[/u] a landlord, but I can confidently say that your landlord will not be heading to prison because he moved your bicycle.
Just on the pedantic legal point i'm sure it ain't theft or indeed burglary damage, but it is the crime of twoc( take with out owners consent) section 12 theft act:-
Ach, well, there you go, I'm barking up completely the wrong tree and talking utter gash. Ignore everything I said on the criminal side and probably everything on the civil side too.
I'm not a landlord, but I can confidently say that your landlord will not be heading to prison because he moved your bicycle.
You don't have any experience of The Protection from Eviction Act 1977 and the Housing Act of 1988. It's an imprisonable offence and landlords today get locked up for threatening or abusing tenants.
To the OP contact your local councils housing officer pronto. They will come down on the landlord for you.
It isn't any criminal offence as there is simply no intent, it is quite clear that the landlord is being a d*** over anything else. Sorry but housing issues like these are a nightmare to resolve, get out and find somewhere else quickly!
If the voicemail is on a mobile, make sure you have saved it (option 2 after listening to it?) as it will probably be deleted at some point now you've heard it.
Munqe-chick - Member
It isn't any criminal offence as there is simply no intent, it is quite clear that the landlord is being a d*** over anything else. Sorry but housing issues like these are a nightmare to resolve, get out and find somewhere else quickly!
+ 1
Munqe-chick - Member
It isn't any criminal offence as there is simply no intent, it is quite clear that the landlord is being a d*** over anything else. Sorry but housing issues like these are a nightmare to resolve, get out and find somewhere else quickly!+ 1
+2
Theres no way the police will be interested in locking anyone up for putting a bike outside. Its a waste of time in their eyes and they WILL make it drag. It isn't worth pursuing just move out.
3000 quid bike and frame, or a chicken pie from tesco, wonder which the police respond to fastest,both have been taken without the owners consent.
Perhaps email your landlord a copy of this thread.
Lyons, hope you get my text
Lyons,
I just saw your bit about being in Hemel. Just wondering what part and who your landlord is as we have lived in Hemel in the past(in Berkhamsted now) and had a really bad experience with a particular scum bag.
Munqe-chick - Member
"It isn't any criminal offence as there is simply no intent,"
?? what criminal intent do you need for twoc that the landlord does not have in this scenario munge-chick?
?? what criminal intent do you need for twoc that the landlord does not have in this scenario munge-chick?
"Taken for use" is clearly missing.
I think some of you are letting your outrage get the better of you, you need to see what's likely to be achievable by calling the police and in my opinion [u]even trying[/u] to get them interested is nothing but a waste of time better spent finding somewhere to live where the landlord isn't a dick.
I would go to the police not for the fact that they might do something but to have a registered record of what has taken place for any possible future legal action. What you have to remember is he thinks he can do this, it is his right to go in to your room and remove stuff. If he does it again and your frame gets stolen or even worse you come home and he has removed all of your belongings the previous police report shows a history of intimidation. Some landlords think that just because they own the property they can do what they like but they can't and as mentioned before there are very big fines for this sort of thing. Protect yourself why should you lose £3k worth of stuff you have worked hard for just because he's a ****ing c**k?
Its nothing to do with theft its all about the harassment.
This is NOTHING to do with TWOC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! The intent is that it is going to be used by yourself or another (for TWOC), he was quite clearly NOT going to do that! You need mens rea and intent.
You cannot TWOC a chicken pie either that could be theft AGAIN depending on intent. Mr MC and I have 15 years criminal law between us.
I think Johners has some good points. Burls has some good points too, you can report it so there is a record to refer to in the future if it happened again, however I'd get out sharpish so it couldn't happen again.
Munqe-chick on reflection you may well be right that this is not twoc. You can compare the cases where a short move of a vehicle amounts to twoc e.g. the poachers move the gamekeepers car to get there own away, with those where it does not eg the moving of a car a short distance as a joke to confuse a friend who owns it. But given the wide definition of "use" i'd not be confident that picking someones bike up taking it out of their flat and placing it in the street for your own ends did not amount to using it. ............certainly pushing a car can be twoc. Mens Rea and intent are the same thing, by the way, you need Mens Rea and Actus Reus to be guilty of a clasic crime. Your point would be that the Mens Rea is the intention to use the bike for oneself or another and the Actus Reus would be the taking of the bike.
Yuyp I'm aware of mens rea and actus rea, intent etc! I was trying to make this slightly simpler for those people with no legal knowledge on here. You would not get a TWOC out of it! I can't even go into explaining it any more. I'm moving on.
Nothing to do with twoc or theft, its landlord harassment.
Lyons - can you update us on the pedals?
Sorry to hear of your landlord troubles!!