[Closed] Working Time Directive - advice please

[url= http://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/employment/employment-legislation/employment-guidance/page28978.html ]http://www.berr.gov.uk/whatwedo/employment/employment-legislation/employment-guidance/page28978.html[/url]

mibbe worth a read through

Our lot included it in the contracts - individuals had to then opt back in if wanted

It is certainly poor practice if not against the regulations to include it in your contract. That makes the opt out meaningless.

It only applies to total hours worked - you cannot opt out of your rest days or your 11 hrs off between working.

Join a union!

The opt out will be stopped soon anyway

A wise management team should not need you to opt out. The average period is so long that most people struggle to exceed 48 hours over it. (Noted exceptions being HGV drivers and junior doctors whao are dealt with specially).
Try to get some numbers together to show that the opt out is not necessary, the work-force will also need educating about the average to prevent the bolshy using it as an excuse to under-perform/let the team down.

I work for large company. We can opt out of the 48hrs if we want, which is then valid for 12 months. The following year we can opt out again.

Can't opt out of the 2 in 14 days rule. Apparently very serious to break that rule, though I've heard that it can be justified in exceptional circumstances, i.e. you do a 5 day week, then you get called out over the weekend, then get called out again the following weekend. But again, exceptional, even if you are on formal/retainer call out they should exhaust all other options before they request you to attend. And you still have the option to say no.

The opt out will be stopped soon anyway

And the NHS will completely collapse if it does.

Worth pointing out that WTD prohibits "more than 48 hours a week [u]on average[/u]" with the average typically being calculated over 17 weeks.

So, as in their example, if you worked 52 hours a week for ten weeks then you would still be complaint as long as you then did 40 hours a week for the next 7 weeks.

Graham - why? I do not want folk who are to tired working. The 48 hr max is to protect both the employees and the users of the service.

Very few NHS employees wrk more than a 48 hr week anyway

Kit,

My understanding of the WTD opt out is that it shoud [b]NOT[/b] form part of your main contract.

It is your right as a worker to opt out or not, it's not up to your employer and you can therefore choose not to opt out at any time. If it's in your main contract then to opt back in, as it were, would mean a new contract (the employer would then have you by the short and curlys).

There are two different types of opt out, individual and collective. Both are there to protect workers but unscrupulous employers may use the individual opt out to put pressure on people. the collective will usually be more controlled and monitored.

As for

The opt out will be stopped soon anyway

I beleive this is due to the European Parliament and European Commission having differing opions on what the WTD is, how it should be applied and what it should do.

And to echo TandemJeremy, join a union!!

Hairy

Graham - why? I do not want folk who are to tired working. The 48 hr max is to protect both the employees and the users of the service.

I agree and I think it is indefensible that the WTD protects the guy selling me burgers but has a special exemption for the nice doctor who is handling potentially lethal drugs after a 14 hour shift.

Very few NHS employees wrk more than a 48 hr week anyway

Pffffffftt... you reckon?

Most doctors I know work very long hours and often have fairly ridiculous shift patterns to cope with too.

And all of them lie on the WTD surveys because they know that the hospital can't afford to sort the situation out.

Just to show this isn't just personal experience:

[b]One in three junior doctors working too many hours: British Medical Association[/b]
One in three junior doctors is working more than 48 hours a week despite new limits coming into force in just four months' time, the British Medical Association warned.
-- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/5094385/One-in-three-junior-doctors-working-too-many-hours-British-Medical-Association.html

[b]'Work pressure' on junior doctors[/b]
Junior doctors are being asked to work longer hours, often unpaid, because of staff shortfalls, the British Medical Association has warned.
Its survey suggests three in ten work on teams with at least one vacancy.
-- http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7319272.stm

[b]Junior doctors pressured to lie about working hours[/b]
-- http://student.bmj.com/issues/02/03/news/51.php

Unfortunately the public typically dismiss all this as "Those junior doctors whinging again. They get paid enough don't they?" 🙄

My last three employers all had opt-out as part of the basic contract for all employees - not that it actually matters as we don't tend to work excessive hours, just seems to be standard contractual practice to opt everyone out, just in case.

My last three employers all had opt-out as part of the basic contract for all employees

Did it explicitly mention the Working Time Directive?

Most contracts I've had say something like "you may be required to work additional hours beyond your normal working week" but that isn't the same as an explicit WTD opt-out.

@GrahamS

The last contract that I have a copy of, issued to our field staff had the following para
I don't know if they still get the same one now

13 OPTING OUT OF THE WORKING TIME REGULATIONS
13.1 You agree that with effect from the date of this agreement the 48 hour limit under regulation 4(1) of the Working Time Regulations 1998 will not apply to you and that therefore your average working time may exceed 48 hours for each seven day period. You are entitled to give 3 months written notice to the Company to terminate this waiver.

That's a pretty explicit opt-out.

Fits with:

#
Workers can agree to work longer than the 48-hour limit. An agreement must be in writing and signed by the worker. This is generally referred to as an opt-out. It can be for a specified period or a indefinite period. There is no opt-out available from the Young Workers limits.
#
Workers can cancel the opt-out agreement whenever they want, although they must give their employer at least seven days’ notice, or longer (up to three months) if this has been agreed.

I remember when it came in, I was at Nortel and everyone was asked to sign an amendment to their contract opting out immediately it came in to affect.

Seems to be pointless legislation if employers just opt everyone out by default.

Seems to be pointless legislation if employers just opt everyone out by default.

The workshy EU are currently trying to ditch the ability to opt-out. But the UK are proudly leading the resistance because our democratically elected government recognises that we all love working long hours here.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2009/apr/02/working-time-directive-eu-negotiations

Its interesting that in the EU only Norway and the Netherlands work shorter hours than us isn't it?
[url] http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/docs/ewco/4EWCS/ef0698/chapter2.pdf [/url]

Interesting article aP. In fact it notes:

Surprisingly, considering the importance of this debate in
the British context, the UK’s working hours are about
average. In fact, the UK stands out only in terms of the long
working hours of male full-time employees in comparison
with other EU15 countries.

So if the UK is so average why are we so against removing the opt-out?

Mind you it also shows that workers in the Health sector are the least affected by long working hours, which is great news.
I'll let my wife know that next time she staggers home after a 70-hour week. 🙄

So if someone does work more than 48 hours a week on average over seventeen weeks, and the company does not offer the employee an option to opt out, is the company breaking the law and if so what recompense does the employee have?

Or is it the employee's fault for not doing anything about it?

Sorry for resurrecting an old thread but it's relevant

http://www.personneltoday.com/articles/2009/04/28/50431/uk-finally-wins-working-time-directive-opt-out.html