MegaSack DRAW - This year's winner is user - rgwb
We will be in touch
I know a few people on here have pellet boilers, or know something about them. So here goes.....
I had a pellet boiler installed in October, and the company who installed it (not naming atm) are still getting it setup and its now the end of January, so things are getting tense.
Anyhow my main issue is the boiler, as it doesn't get all the radiators hot (you can easily hold them, without it getting uncomfortable) or provide enough hot water to run more than two taps, without the water going tepid. Also the boiler is burning a lot of pellets.
For example when the outside temperature was 5 to 11 degree's it was burning circa 40 to 50 kg of pellets a day to heat the house to 16 1/2 degrees in the evening (so on for 7 hours max), and that's with a 8kW wood burner going as well, but now its got cold we are burning 80-90 kg a day! So that's over a 1/2 a ton a week.
Is this normal? As that makes my weekly heating bill before anything else over £141, which seems a hell of a lot for two showers worth of hot water, two bowls of washing up and heat for 7 hours.
My feeling is the boiler/accumulator is losing loads of heat, as the boiler room temperature is in the high twenties, and when there was snow, every wall of the house had snow banked up against it bar those adjacent to the boiler room which were clear. However the installers have told me that the system isn't losing excessive amounts of heat and burning 80-90 kg of pellets a day is normal for this time of year.
So anyone with one of these things care to comment? As surely people can't be burning two tonnes of pellets a month in the winter.
NB: A bit of info, the boiler is a woodviking 28kW, with an accumulator (not sure of make, but its not a great one as the coils are cast iron, so I had black water for a while until they put a heat exchanger in) House is detached, not great insulation, but some windows are double glazed, and the wall are around 2 to 3 feet thick in places. I also have a 8kW wood burner going to boost the heat a bit.
<stoner to the forum>
something sounds very wrong to me 😯
I ought to add, the insulation in the house isn't great as it was a total building site until recently, so very few windows have curtains and the roof insulation is going in two weeks time.
but all the cavities between floors are filled with loft insulation, and and flat roofs have 200mm of celotex put in, and some of the windows are double glazed, plus all big drafts are plugged, and I am only heating the house to 16 degree's! So its not exactly tropical anywhere apart from the boiler room, where you end up dripping if you spend anytime in there.
Bear is the pro, so hopefully he'll see his name in lights and join in in a bit.
Until then my 2p.
40-50Kg of pellets is about 240kWh or energy (or £10-15 of pellets).
that's quite a lot for a "normal house".
But it might not be extraordinary for a massive barn with no insulation. One needs a bit more information. However, even my 3,000 sq ft barn (fairly well insulated i.e. exceeding SAP TER by 15% in 2009) would go through 75Kg at it's absolute peak (-8 deg outside to +18deg inside for 24hrs a day)
First qus then:
1) what size is the boiler rated at (kWh)?
2) ho wmuch water does the boiler hold?
3) how much water does the accumulator hold?
4) how big is the house?
5) what brand accumulator (if you can tell us?).
inevitably more qus to follow
BTW this is my "usual pattern of consumption". The spikes are bit misleading, but generally, average winter consumption is around
125kWh/day - which is about 25-30Kg after losses.
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Boiler should heat accumulator to a setpoint and then switch off until the lower setpoint is reached.
Are these setpoints realistic?
Is the pipework large enough to get enough heat to the accumulator?
Is the accumulator insulated properly?
By the very nature of the beast the room it is in will get hot but you want to minimise heatloss from anything after the boiler.
I'm assuming it's an instantaneous hot water production version through a heat exchanger. Is this in the correct place, high enough, as you've had whatever was in their changed?
Are there any temperature gauges on the pipework/accumlator to tell you what's going on?
as already said that does not sound right, Stoner (if not on a ban 😉 ) will be here shortly, he or Bear are who you want.
Stoner tends to use more logs in his as opposed to pellets though as it takes both, most and I assume yours is pellet only. He's got a heat recovery thingy (ASHP?) in his boiler room too to pump some of the boiler room heat back into the house. I don't know what volumes he uses though.
how big is your place just to add context, Stoners place is pretty sizeable, open plan and originally of pretty old construction (although no doubt now well insulated) and his boiler does a good job of keeping the place warm by the sounds of it. Do you have a heat store or is it run like a combi boiler?
[Edit] Ignore me he's here [/Edit]
1. 28kW woodviking pellet master
2. 250 liters
3. 750 liters
4. 5 bedroom detached house, however much of it is shut off. Not sure how many square feet will look it up when I get home. I think its circa 2200 square feet, but I could be wrong
5. I don't know the brand of the accumulator, but its pretty low tech. Soft foam jacket which you can reach under and touch the steel legs touching the floor (which are pretty hot at the top where they touch the and ice cold at the bottom where they are on a concrete floor) The tank has two sets of coils, but as they are cast iron they can't be used for main water as they turn the water black (took them a week or so to fix that), so the hot water is taken off a heat exchanger where mains water is on on side and the water which is taken through the coils on the other side.
Set points for the boiler are startup: 65 degree's, turn off 90 degrees. Pipe work is 28mm into house, and mostly 28mm around the boiler. Some is 15mm but that's only to expansion vessels
All pipework is well lagged through the house, and then wrapped in loft insulation.
1) same brand as me. I have the biotriplex. The pellet side of mine is the older 25kWh Ulma burner. 200L of water.
The accumulator doesn sound brilliant. Did the woodviking installer not spec a Jaspi thermal store? Im very happy with mine (750L, 3 coils, loads of tappings)
I have mine set to 65-80 when using pellets, and 60-80 when I am primarily using logs (as I dont want the pellet boiler to fire too soon)
What is controlling the hysteresis between the boiler and the tank? A termomat or a laddomat kind of thing?
Do you have any other appliances draw hot water from the boiler rather than the accumulator?
Is there a fixed temp setting mixer valve between the boiler/tank flow return? What temp?
edit - typo in my first post. I meant 3x 15Kg Bags, being 45Kg, being about 220kWh.
The accumulator doesn sound brilliant. Did the woodviking installer not spec a Jaspi thermal store? Im very happy with mine (750L, 3 coils, loads of tappings)
I think they speced a cheap accumulator to save money, not that they will admit it as they don't want to change it. I think its made by some Czechoslovakian company. I foolishly didn't check when I contracted them, as their website only shows JASPI accumulators so I assumed it would be one of those, and they seemed to know what they were talking about.
Not sure, there are various thermostats on the tank (at the top and the bottom), and a number of dials that can be adjusted to determine the temperature of the accumulator and when it calls for more heat.
Central heating is drawn off the accumulator, and hot water via the heat exchanger indirectly (due to the black water thing) via the top and bottom coils for the house and that's it.
Not sure about the fixed temp setting.
Are there any questions I should be asking to get to the bottom of this? As they are due around again on Friday so I can see what they say.. As to be honest I just want it sorted as surely it can't take 3 months to install a boiler!
where on the tank are the central heating tappings?
If the flow to the rads is taken too low down then that may be a prob. If can be taken higher up and blended with return water to get back down to normal temp (say 50-60degs) to give it more chance of drawing hot water.
Im not familiar with the heat exchanger set up as my DHW comes through indirect copper coils inside the accumulator straight from mains cold supply to sink taps.
There ought to be some controllers that pump hot water back and forth between the store and the boiler to maintain temp in the boiler. Usually something like 60degrees minimum. And when the boielr water is +2degs over the top of the tank temp it pumps from the boiler back to the tank, but a blender valve maintains a minimum return waqter temp to the boiler of say 70degs ish to prevent chilling the flue gasses.
No idea on usage and the like but we have an old mill based house (2-3 ft thick stone walls) and last week I started taking out an old internal wall (to install some big french doors). This meant taking away insulation.
Consequently we've a big-ish area currently uninsulated in the middle of the house - and not only is it bloody cold but also the stove is eating logs like they are going out of fashion.
Not sure where the tappings are, I will have a look when I get home and if I can't see I will ask on Friday.
The heat exchanger is due to the balls up with the tank, basically the cold main flows in one side, and comes out the top hot. The other side is a closed system with a pump that circulates water through the bottom coils then then the top and then the heat exchanger and back down to the bottom again. One issue is it just doesn't generate that much hot water.
Not sure about the controllers, I can take a photo but there is a lot of stuff in the room and not much room. I made them re-organize it, as you used to have to take the hopper and the expansion tank out of the room to get in due to them just dumping it all in wherever it fell.
Pipe sizing sounds adequate.
Unsure on your hot water set up. Pictures/diagram would be useful. I was thinking they'd put a new coil in internally? If it's an external plate heat exchanger a pump will be needed to get enough heat to it to keep up with demand. Which it should easily (assuming it's of the correct size which won't be very big in a house.
Accumulators are pretty simple things to construct so a cheap version should still do the same job as an expensive one...
Does it look something like this setup pipework and tappings wise. Ignore the solar side.
If you have HOT water at the top of the accumulator (i.e. above 60degrees) then there's no reason why you shouldnt be able to get plenty of hot water at the taps. It sounds like the heat exchanger is a bit crap.
My thermal store preheats the mains cold at mid level (say 40-50degs) before it goes back into the top coil of the tank at temps around 70-80degrees it then gets mixed down with mains cold to a safe top temp of 50degs ish (kids in the house) I can run a couple of big baths from a full hot tank before needing recharging.
Id be a bit miffed with the sound of that tank. How much was it?
My jaspi was about £2k I think. List price for GTV 700 with three coils is about £3k now.
http://www.northmangroup.co.uk/gtv.html
Yes, its an external plate heat exchanger, the model is Alpha Laval CB 14-20 which has been fixed to the side of the accumulator, and has a pump in place.
Its not huge, but apparently should be OK. However if run two taps the shower is tepid, and you can't get anything other than warm water out of the taps for around 30-40 minutes when the central heating is first switched on as it seems to suck all the heat out of the system and then the hot water goes off, and the radiators switch off until the boiler gets things back up to temperature, which isn't ideal.
They tried turn down the mains water flow, but then you had hot water, but it only came out of the tap as a dribble which wasn't really acceptable to me.
The pipework looks something like that only, much more complex as they seem to be adding more and more bits to try and get it to work.
No idea of the price of the tank, as I bought the system including the boiler and install.
I know that my deposit, paid for the boiler, accumulator and all materials up front.
How much would you expect to pay for a 28k woodviking, jaspi tank and installation? As I wonder if they just went in too cheap or were trying to make too much profit.
However if run two taps the shower is tepid, and you can't get anything other than warm water out of the taps for around 30-40 minutes when the central heating is first switched on as it seems to suck all the heat out of the system
suggests the CH draw off is above or close to the heat exchanger draw off and boiler isnt firing early enough to charge the accumulator while the CH is drawing. Sounds like the pumps controlling the movement of water between the two vessels isnt set up right to me as the temp in the boiler isnt falling fast enouh to indicate that the heat in the boiler is moving quickly into the accumulator where it can be used and so get the boiler down to firing temp for recharging.
All my own guess though as Id want to see it run to get a better understanding.
will check, but I think I paid something over £10k for mine.
Total quote was £10,875 + 5% VAT
Jaspi GTV was £1,400 + VAT for 700L including 3 coils, which is a lot less than the price Northman Group quote now - or maybe he got theq uote wrong and added £300 to the final price. Cant be sure.
Charging package (termomat + pumps) £420
Biotriplex, silo and auger + burner was £6kish + VAT
so about £2k ish for installation, commissioning, materials etc.
I arranged the flue installation separately (about £1300 I think)
Quoted Aug-2009
Sounds an odd one, but my money would be on
1: cheap accumulator losing too much heat;
2: lack of a load charger (Laddomat or similar) or wrong stat installed, flooding the boiler with colder water than necessary; and
3: the plumbing into the accumulator being wrong, buggering up the stratification resulting in 750l of colder than necessary water trying to heat the rads and hw.
What's controlling the boiler? How is the thermal store calling for heat? Do you have temp sensors at top and bottom? If so, can you log temperatures to an SD card or similar to get an idea of stratification and heat loss etc?
That's around what I am paying so it looks like they tried to save some cash on the accumulator tank to make more money then.
What does the load charger do exactly as I will ask about that and see what they say.
There are temp sensors top and bottom but I don't know how they communicate with the boiler, I will ask.
From what I understand if some thing messes up the stratificaction of the tank, you end up heating a huge volume of water which isn't really hot enough to use, is this right? If so that sounds like what the problem could be as I am burning a not so small forest weekly yet have a cold house, and can't run two taps and a shower.
Just for Stoner - one word......
Need to digest this and as nasty builder has requested a quote for tomorrow morning it won't be tonight.
You could have a combination of problems though , pumps can sometimes cause problems.
Cool any help is much appreciated as I am at my wits end with it
Anyone anywhere near Bristol? As if you are and do day rate I could well be interested in second opinion
Rich, I'm not but I'm hoping to come down that way to look at some work with Stoner sometime soon, just waiting for a phone call.
Failing that I will be down that way doing some training in the not too distant future.
Can you send me some photos
timATj-twren.eclipse.co.uk
and that's with a 8kW wood burner going as well,
If the wood burner on its own isn't enough to heat a house of that size when it's 5-11 degrees outside then your house is a thermal sieve. If it's around zero outside and you heat the house to 20°C before turning off all the heating overnight what temperature have you got in the morning? Try it.
We've currently got a woodburner ticking over at maybe 4kW, it's just over zero outside and the temperature inside is 18.5°C and rising. If I don't add anymore wood we'll probably have 15-16°C tomorrow morning.
A question (and tease) for Stoner. I've noted you got apparent stone on the inside of your living room and on the outside of the wall too. It looks like the wall is 40cm of rubble and stone with an approximate R value of 0.3. Probably worse than the windows - or have you an explanation?
A 'loading' or 'charging' unit (such as the Laddomat 21) is used to maintain a high return temperature to the boiler and to 'charge' the accumulator tank from the top downwards with high temperature water, thus creating layering or 'stratification'.
You really need to get a handle on the temperatures in the accumulator tank at the various use and boiler firing times to understand what is happening. Ideally you should be able to log these for analysis later, but if you can't, then can you manually log them at set intervals through the day? I assume there are readouts for the temp sensors on the controller you can see?
If not, a few of these placed at strategic places on the plumbing and accumulator could help determine what is happening.
[i]All-purpose Digital temperature controller with Sensor thermostat 2 Relay[/i]
http://bit.ly/WBcLh0
Good luck!
richc - if you're near bristol, can I just ask whether your installer was a chap called M T**?
Mark Thatcher? Isn't he in prison somewhere?
I will pm you.
get back to work Bear 🙂
rich - this is my clumsy attempt at showing how the various temp controllers interact with water temps int he boiler and the thermal store.
Theres the boiler firing thermostat, a mixing valve and a load charging thermostat that act on this diagram.
EDIT: BTW, this is the load charger in my system
looks a bit "GCSE IT Project" but it's simple to use and works well.
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I will take photos tomorrow morning in the light and post them.
I can't provide the graphs or detail that stoner can but we have a Windhager 26kw in a stone built 100yr old 3 bed semi. Hot water is from an unvented 170l tank and there is no buffer. The Windhager MES+ is extremely complicated and clever but it means it's been on (sometimes at a very low level) more or less constantly since the weather got cold. We've just used 100kg since Saturday morning (now Tuesday morning) so in answer to your original question it does seem that your consumption is excessive.
15.2°C inside this morning with a hard frost outside having added no wood since my last post. I'm in today so a few logs will be consumed.
Has anyone else tried the temperature drop overnight with no heating test? I know it depends on the thermal inertia of your home as well as insulation but a rapid drop is a good indication you need to fix the house rather than the heating system.
typical winter morning here Ed:
outside temp is showing as -1.5degrees.
Before bed the thermal store was showing c.68degrees average over 1,000L
this morning it's showing about 58 average and has been maintaining house temp target of 16deg overnight and 18deg for breakfast without firing the boiler from 19deg when I went to bed (had stove running)
So starting with 1000 x 68-10 x 4.2 = 240kWh of energy in the tank
finishing with 1000 x 58-10 x 4.2 = 200kWh left
so 40kWh of energy taken from the store overnight to maintain house differential of, say 17degrees for 8hours.
cant be bothered to do dig out my vent/heatloss calcs but think that's not too bad.
I reckon if the heating pumps were disabled (i.e. thermal store remain unchanged temp) the house would fall from 18/19deg at 11pm to around 15deg by breakfast.
for added smugness, have just come back from dropping Jr at school and noticed that our roof has the most snow left on it out of the whole neighbourhood. 😀 😀
I've no idea about the overnight drop but suspect it might be quite high. I think the Windhager assumes a significant loss judging by the way it 'panics' when it's cold out. The system was incredibly difficult to set up and actually needed the man from Cheltenham to sort it initially so I'm loathed to fiddle. I think continental assumptions about heat requirements for houses are different from mine, for example we had problems at the start because we wanted 17.5 in the living room but this is too low so puts the system into 'setback' mode where it just comes on and off to stop any damage rather than following a program. We also get a lot of solar gain in one room but I haven't managed to factor that in at all.
Windhager - over complicated, terribly expensive. Eh Bear? 😉 😉 😉
The Audi of pellet boilers so [i]must[/i] be STW fave surely? 😉
seriously, if you continue to have problems, Bear kind of knows one end of a windhager form the other. At least he makes all the right noises....
Ah thanks. We don't have problems at all although we did for the first month or so. It's brilliant now just I think some of the calculations used to control it, or the weight given to certain values, are not what I would do. A very tangible way of seeing how much fuel you're using though - my wife keeps it topped up and does the counting. She'll be drawing graphs next 😉
Edit - that was me telling Brant to tell you we'd had a 7 bag fortnight last year btw 🙂
A very tangible way of seeing how much fuel you're using though - my wife keeps it topped up and does the counting.
It's quite "primal" to be that close to the fuel and being able to connect it to your comfort levels. Even more so when you run on logs and source, store, and manhandle the fuel by hand yourself.
And one can never be over-graphed 🙂
EDIT: he couldnt wait to tell me. He had no idea what you meant though!
I have drunk too much coffee and am sitting in the conference room at FSA reading this though 🙂
16.7°C after one load. The question now is do I go outside (+2°C now) and chop logs to get warm or burn a couple more.
I've got a quote for replacing the three biggest windows with triple glazing. 1700e would buy a lot of pre-chopped wood and take more than the rest of my life to justif financially but I'm tempted.
I have drunk too much coffee
need a pee?
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you do now.
To counteract the cheap Italian red while vanity googling 😉
I'll tell her she's primal.
I have taken photos and will label them up tonight, as the boiler room is pretty tight with everything in it so its not clear.
My insulation in the house isn't great as I mentioned before, but its an ongoing project to improve it. Basically the house has been rebuild over the last 12 months (inside and outside stripped back to stone, and re-render and plastered, new roof, new ceiling, new wiring, new plumbing, every lintel replaced, so pretty much the lot)
One thing I noticed yesterday, is that with everything turned off (heating, and zero hot water drawn) the system burnt around 20kg (may'be a little less, but not much) of pellets and had fired up twice in 12 hours.
Which I am told is normal, however it seems odd that the accumulator can only hold its temperature for ~6 hours without anything drawn off before it needs to re-heating.
Hah! Some useful information!
If we assume you're getting 4kWh/kg out of your wood pellets that's 80kWh just to keep the tank warm for 12h or about 160kWh/day - that's the total daily use of a whole family in a typical household for heating and hot water. No matter how badly insulated the accumulator it isn't going to lose that much heat through the lagging so the problem is the efficiency of getting the energy out of the pellets into the accumulator.
So things to look at:
Are the pellets absolutely dry and burning nicely?
If yes, then either the heat exchanger in the boiler or the heat exchanger in the accumulator is not working very well. The heat has to go somewhere and I suspect it's going up the chimney. I'd check the heat exchanger in the boiler is clean and then check the temperature of the water being circulated is as hot as it should be. If the water being circulated quicly reaches temperature then the problem lies in the accumulator heat exchanger.
Which I am told is normal, however it seems odd that the accumulator can only hold its temperature for ~6 hours without anything drawn off before it needs to re-heating.
That's nuts. I thought most modern thermal stores only dropped a degree or so in 24hours.
Is the accumulator thermo-syphoning somewhere? To the rads maybe?
Or is it just emitting too much heat into the boiler room?
I'd check the heat exchanger in the boiler is clean
on your's thats the two black hand screws on the front, take off plate cover and hoover out any ash/debris on the shelves. Remove the turbulators and give them a brush, then clean the fins with the wire brush on the metal rod you should have received. hoover again.
The hot water to the rads is controlled by two switched valves controlled by thermostats in the house, both of the thermostats are off, and I have confirmed that the valves are shut (the pipes above the valves are cold), so I don't think its siphoning out.
The accumulator, is sat on a concrete floor and the walls are warm to touch in the boiler room so there is a lot of heat in there.
The pellets were burning nicely (fine grey ash), however a flue restrictor has been put in and now the ash is very black, and has some lumps of part burnt pellets in it (not many but a few). The flue draw was very good before the restrictor was put in (chimney flue is around 7M long and lined with a 6" Aluminum flue).
The pellets are Verdo (or Brites), and seem ok the are firm when you squeeze them in your hand and they don't hang around long enough to get damp tbh.
Thanks Stoner, I will try that tonight to see if it helps
however a flue restrictor has been put in and now the ash is very black
the ash shouldnt be very black, should still be mid grey.
I have a sprung air valve on my flue to limit the amount of draw pulling through the appliance. MT ought to be able to check it for you. A 7m flue might well need a restrictor given the height.
definitely more black than grey, used to be grey but hasn't been since the flue restrictor was put in place.
then first check the turbulators/heat exchangers, also if you can get to it the flue outlet from the back of the boiler (soot gathers there).
If thats all clear and not stuffed full of sooty ash, then ask MT to check the restrictor. Is it adjustable or a set diameter?
I am 99% sure its adjustable, it had what looked like a weight on the end of a bit of wire.
sounds similar to mine. I use trial and error on mine - move the weight back and forth until during a good burn the valve is gently sitting slightly open.
With proper tools though your man can check flue gas temp/O2 content and adjust accordingly.
Stoner doesn't yours self clean and regulate fan speeds for optimum combustion?...........
With my spare £20k I employ a monkey to stoke it instead 😉
Were they on special offer then?
Paul - was it Paul B from W/hager who set it up for you?
Yes it was although I never actually met him. Everyone was called Paul except the owner of the installation company who was Ali, recommended by someone on here called 'nonk' who no one admits to knowing.
I am not sure this thread is doing a great job of promoting these boilers.
How do they compare to a decent combi?
Genuine enquiry I need/want to replace an aging vented system, to improve efficiency and get rid of the water tanks. My best option so far seems to be a combi boiler fitted by a local tradesman for about the price of a Kona Rove. Should I be considering other fuels?
How do they compare to a decent combi?
if youre on mains gas, you really shouldnt be considering biomass for the next 10 yrs at least.
Ok ta.
Biomass only makes sense off mains grid.
Heat pumps only make sense with super insulated homes probably with PV
Paul there are 2 Paul B's although only one usually goes on site.
Nice bloke has been very helpful on my installs.
Holy thread resurrection 🙂
I stopped posting, as the installation company started grumbling about internet experts (and what muppets that are) and them having to walk away if I didn't get advice from people who knew what they were talking about ..........
Anyway, I have now sacked them, as it became painfully clear that whilst they could talk a good game, they didn't actually know what they were doing and might have left the system in a dangerous state (240V junction boxes, with bare wires near pressure release valves, electrical components with split casings that you could see bare wires etc).
So after giving them yet more chances I got someone form the Northman group out to look at the system and give me a report so I could move forward with this, and the summary was, good news: they have all the components I need, bad news they are all in completely the wrong place and the whole thing needs reinstalling.
The massive heat loss was apparently due to pumps running between the boiler and accumulator continuously, so that all the pipework was acting like a huge radiator, also they had the flow side of a pump going to an 100L expansion tank, which was hot to touch which was also pissing out heat, this meant that the boiler room sat at ~ 29 degrees constantly (which I was told was 'normal').
Added bonuses were: they fitted a flue restrictor, but jammed it open (when boiler was off it was still open), temperature probes weren't screwed in properly into the accumulator so they read 20 degrees less than the actual tank temp, so they thought the tank was 70->75 degrees, where it was actually 90-95 degrees! and whilst they had fixed a Termomix mixing valve, they hadn't bothered with the temperature sensor and they had split open the casing to jam it open at all times!
and those are just the highlights.
I thought I would reopen this, to thank people for their help as it did at least allow me to ask the right questions which meant that I could work out just how much I was being lied to.
Now I have to decide if I get rid of the system, and claim my money back via Sale of Goods Act and get an oil boiler, or find someone else to finish the install......
Bloody hell, that's shocking.
will pm you.
Wasn't a good day, but it was a relief to have my concerns verified; the bloke from the Northman group felt ashamed for them after looking at it, its that badly done.