[Closed] Winter Bivi Hints

Torso length cut of closed cell foam under your airbed (assuming that's what you use). Hot drinks. Using natural features or a tarp as a windbreak.

I take some decent merino leggings and top to sleep in when cold plus a wooly hat.

Right tool for the job, though, for me. I was out Tuesday night and, at this time of year with long hours of darkness, a small tent is always going to be a more comfortable place to wait for dawn.
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Obv longjohns and a baselayer top plus hat and gilet. I use a nice PHD one or a Primaloft pullover if there's a chance of damp.

I'd also use a tent in winter as I'm not evangelical about bivvying 😉

Rather than buy a winter bag that you'll only use very occasionally get a liner or outer bag to boost your current bag's rating. I've a bag rated to 8C and a quilt rated to 5C and together I've used them, in comfort, down to -5/6C, which is good enough for most of the UK year round.

Get a decent sleeping mat with a high R-value. You are lying on several trillion tonnes of cold earth, that's just going to suck the heat out of you. A foil blanket won't make much difference. You don't say what sort of sleeping mat you have, if it's a closed cell foam one then consider one of the Exped Synmat or Thermarest NeoAir series.

I take a set of merino thermals to sleep in - it's all they are used for - it means I know I've something dry to put on for the night. Eat something high in fat before turning in, cheese, sausage, that sort of thing. The body uses energy to digest so you warm up. Generally don't go to bed hungry.

Site selection can make a huge difference on the same night - frost hollows or being by water will be colder. Conversely being close to or under trees will be warmer.

I was also thinking a survival foil blanket on the sleeping pad would be a good idea for extra insulation. Anyone tried this?

I’d be careful with this. It may work ok under your mat? A few years ago I did a mountain marathon and was ‘helpfully’ advised by a friend to take a very lightweight sleeping bag and boost its rating by using it in the mandatory foil survival bag you had to carry. Clearly my friend had never actually tried this as it resulted in the worst night sleep ever! They are completely unbreathable so any sweat/breath gets trapped by the foil and condenses soaking you/sleeping bag!

I use a foil blanket groundsheet under my tent regularly when it's cold. It works well.
I also add a foam karrimat, however I've a new super warm Roben's mat so may not need this now.
A few well chosen clothes - full Merino socks, longjohns, long sleeve top, buff and hat do boost a bit.
Make a hot water bottle or take some of those hand warmer things. The handwarmers can last many hours.
My sleeping bag is an ancient -5 rated ME bag. I've boosted it before with the addition of the liner (which I find twists up on me) and a fleece blanket from home.

As above, choose site very carefully. Imo, winter in Scotland is also time to use tents and bothies, although the latter is off limits at present for kippping.

thanks all. Thur was a test to see the limit of my setup. I was in;

Vango Heluim F10 Tent
Alpkit Numo Pad
Mountain Equipment Lamina Bag 35 (this bag is 10+ years old now)

had fresh meriano base layers on for sleeping, beanie hat and a Montane Primaloft gillet
Had a brew and cous cous before bed but probably should have more to eat before as was still hungry

I think the bag is the weak point as it's seen better days

You can get insulated Thermolite liners that add about 5c to your sleeping bag rating. I got one for a tenner from eBay.

Alpkit Numo Pad

There's your problem! The Numo isn't insulated, it's just a Lilo by another name.

Mountain Equipment Lamina Bag 35 (this bag is 10+ years old now)

Ah, another problem - synthetic bags don't age well (don't know about the current fillings - not enough time), your 3C rated bag is probably now an 8C or 10C bag as the filling will have broken down over time. Depending on how often you used it and how you treated it you might only have got two or three years at its stated rating.

I made my own tent footprint from a sheet of cheap tarp (the blue stuff) cut to shape and the metal rings removed. Then stuck a silver foil blanket to it, to reflect heat. Doesn't weigh much but made a big difference and is lighter than the official footprint and cost a couple of quid.

I also have one of these

https://www.backpackinglight.co.uk/practical/XA107.html

Mine just came as a blanket so sewed it up to make sleeping bag and this goes over mine to add another season. Its highly breathable too and weighs very little.

Yep, the Alpkit is the problem. You’ll not thank me but a good mat will make a huge difference. I finally bit the bullet and got a Thermarest Neo Xtherm, absolutely fantastic. Silly expensive yes, but can get away with a lower rated bag with it, so comparing the cost to a bigger down bag it’s not actually so bad.

The Exped down mats are also apparently very warm.

I use a tent footprint made from 3mm closed cell foam. It helps greatly and weighs a bit more than one made from groundsheet material. You buy it by the m in 1.5m wide. the 1.2 x 2.4 m one I use weighs 250g more than the lightest groundsheet material but means the whole floor of the tent is insulated and comfy

You could use this stuff for a bivvy groundsheet. the main issue is its bulky

https://www.needlesports.com/Catalogue/Camping/Tent-Accessories/Beacons-Products-Tent-Underlay-15m-wide-by-per-metre-length-BEA-TULM

I precreased mine so it folds up into as small a package as possible - in half lengthwise then concertinaed. It comes out as 60cm x 10 cm x 25 cm approx folded up

thanks for the critique chaps, I thought I was pushing things!

I don't mind splashing the cash here so what would be a good choice in new sleeping pad and bag?
Therm-a-Rest NeoAir Xtherm for the pad?
Alpkit Skyhigh 900 for the bag?

Sleeping pads: as before either the NeoAir series or the Exped Synmat series will be more than sufficient. Lots of reviews online, don't think you'll go wrong with either.

Sleeping bag - if you are a cold sleeper look at the "comfort" rating, if you are a warm sleeper look at the "limit" rating. Both are starting points.

With down bags there's a few variables: fill power is basically efficiency - the higher the value the less down you need for a given temperature; down ratio is a quality figure, the better "down" will have ratios like 95/5 so 5% of the down is feathers. Generally goose down is better than duck down but there's a crossover.

The Alpkit Skyhigh 900 uses duck down with a 650 fill power with 90/10 ratio. That's pretty low TBH hence the low price, I'd be looking at bags with fill power of at least 750 preferably 800. The Pipedream 600 uses 750fp down and promptly loses 350g of weight. Going to very top end you have bags like the PHP Hispar 500K which uses 1000fp down and weighs half of what the Skyhigh does. You pays your money ...

thanks for the clarification on fill power, that makes sense. Pulled the trigger on a NeoAir Xtherm pad, now need to research bags more...

If money isn't a major consideration then my opinion is a lightweight down bag and a lightweight down gilet or jacket. a) You mostly want to keep your core warm. b) bag and jacket combo is much more practical for camp. You can wear your top around camp and whilst sat up cooking / faffing, then it's part of your sleeping bag at night. PHD at the price no problem end or ME / Marmot / OMM certainly used to do some good kit but there will be plenty of options. I've been using ME Dewline bag / jacket combo for 25years in UK winter wild camping and Summer alpine bivis.
As already stated, you must combine with an appropriately insulated mat and tomorrows clean dry base layers or you'll never get warm.

I’ve some experience of bikepacking in Scotland (mostly in or around the Cairngorms) and here’s my take.

It’s definitely worth spending the money to get it right.

I started off with what I had (which was bought for mainly for car based camping) and I ended up replacing everything.

It’s bikepacking so low bulk is just as important (if not more so) than low weight.

I’ve a couple of Exped UL mats (the rectangular and the mummy shaped one) which whilst not quite winter rated has seen me ok at -5 down Glen Feshie a couple times).

I like Rab sleeping bags. My Neutrino 200 has served me well in the warmer months but unsurprisingly been chuffing cold when I’ve miscalculated (ie last October at Bynack Stables, just as well I’d packed my thermaloft jacket!). I also have an old TNF down bag that I’ve not replaced yet as whilst it’s a bit on the bulky side it’s fine for a one night trip... I’ve supplemented the Rab with an Alpkit down quilt but I probably need to put it internal for best effect... however, the combo is bulkier than the TNF... I keep looking at the Neutrino 400 but it’s just south of 300£...

I also quite like a bivi bag/tarp combo in winter as it’s great to see the stars and there’s less air to keep warm in a bag... I don’t find my face exposed gets cold as long as I’ve a hat. I also have a lunar solo but the frost makes its use a bit of a pain (and bigger sleeping bag means more chance of hitting the fabric and cold transfer... also experienced frost falling on my face in the morning... plus I like to sleep with the flaps rolled up). I’ve also a Helium 200 tent which works well enough but means being enclosed in...

I’ve not had a Neoair but a quick check shows that they are more expensive than Exped and do they have an inflation bag? I find the schnozle bag worth the expense (I think they are included now). I over inflated my first Exped and blew baffles (all replaced no problem under warranty) and the bag makes this difficult. It’s surprising how low is fine (and it’s quicker and you’re not putting warm moist air into the mat either).

Just my 2p worth...

ETA: Bothy booties in the sleeping bag I find a boon on the really cold nights. Cold feet and ass is where I feel the frost most...

One other thing I do is if I am cold before going to bed i do a bit of exercise before getting into my sleeping bag so i am generating heat and thus fill the sleeping bag with warm air quickly - helps a lot

Yep never go to bed cold. It’s easy to think in the evening oh I’m cold I’ll go to bed now. Always warm up before you go to bed, find I sleep a lot better.

https://flic.kr/p/2iha1FP

On the topic of bulk: the fill of a bag is only half the story (and weight) there's the material that the inner and outer shells are made from to consider. Look at the Alpkit Skyhigh and Pipedream as examples - the Skyhigh uses 20d (dernier) inner and 40d outer whereas the Pipedream is 20d inner and outer. Not only is this lighter but it also packs better. When you get to the top end they often use 10 dernier materials, some even use 7d material for the inner. The downside (sic) is that you need to be more careful in how you handle them as they are a bit more delicate.

When using a jacket/bag combo make sure the bag is big enough to let the jacket loft otherwise there's no point and it's probably better just to lay the jacket over the top of the bag.

Here's a shot of my setup for a three day ride around Kielder Forest last Christmas/New Year. We were stopping in bothies so the sleep kit was: Exped mat; PHD 8C bag; Cumulus 5C quilt; lightweight bivy bag. In addition we'd all our food and cooking kit though we did use the café at Kielder for a second breakfast.

Just to clarify my choice, looking on the Alpkit website, rather than a Pipedream 600. my choice would be more along the lines of Pipedream 200 plus Filoment down jacket or Pipedream 400 plus filoment down gilet or something along those lines (tbh there's better jackets/gilets elsewhere as per whitestone's post re down fp and ratio, but will be much more expensive)

I think what Mr(?) Banana is getting at is flexibility. A slightly cooler sleeping bag plus jacket will be more flexible and see more use than a warmer or very much warmer sleeping bag.

I've a Rab 1100 sleeping bag. A couple of points: 1. it's huge! 2. It's warm. Like really, really warm. So warm that I've used it less than 30 nights in the 20+ years I've had it. I got it for winter Alpine climbing back in the early 1990s. I now use it for winter fat bike races in the Arctic.

That's an extreme example of course but demonstrates why you might not need a bag rated to low temps. For instance the average lows for both Aviemore and Braemar for Jan-Feb is -1C. There'll be the occasional night where it's much colder but something like a -6C rated bag would suffice for 99% of the time.

I suppose the central point is to get a high quality core system that will handle most of your needs then augment it for those few occasions where it needs a bit of help.

I think all the main points have been covered.

Positioning and siting; try to avoid dips and hollows on those still nights as they will fill with cold air. Similarly, camping near water can cause a cold spot.

Insulated mat; (I use Exped UL7).

Warmer bag(s); quilt and bag makes for a flexible combination.

Mat placement; in order to keep everything together, I prefer my mat inside my bivvy bag. That works fine with the quilt or thinner sleeping bag but it's too tight for the combo or a warmer bag. That prevents lofting and so you lose warmth. At this time of year the mat really needs to be outside the bivvy bag.

Booties; I bought some Exped down socks last winter. They're great if you suffer from cold toes.

Warm hat; I'm not a fan of having my head fully in the sleeping/bivvy bag, much preferring to be able to see around me when I wake. Also, your breath will condense in and around your bag, making it damp and cold. Stick a warm hat on and enjoy the fresh air on your face.

Hot water bottle; a "Sigg" bottle, filled with hot water and put in a wooly sock will help warm you up. The water will still be drinkable in the morning rather than frozen if it's outside your bag.

Spare clothes in general; if you've cycled far/hard then you might be damp. Dry clothes will then help (and help preserve your bag). Of course, you might then have to put icy clothes on in the morning. Keeping your riding wear inside the bivvy bag can help (if you have space).

Surgical gloves; I always carry a pair for packing up in the morning. Handling and packing icy cold kit is bad enough with dry hands, it can be excruciating when they get wet and you really want to keep your riding gloves dry too.

Buff or skullcap; no one likes a cold, wet helmet in the morning.

I was out on Friday night, bivvying near Feshie Bridge. It was minus 3 or 4 degrees in the morning and I really was at the limit of my Phantom 32 bag.

Whitby / Zippo metal handwarmers - run off lighter fuel - put them in your boots overnight will dry them out and they'll be warm in the morning.

The most important point has been overlooked; the pee bottle.

Wide mouth, secure lid, godsend.

I use a foil blanket groundsheet under my tent regularly when it’s cold. It works well.

As in a "spaceblanket" like the OP is asking about? The may offer some protection for a casualty from the wind (and convection style heatloss), the foil concept is clearly intended to prevent radiative heatloss by reflecting IR back towards the user - but it seems unlikely that it would have much effect when the object you are trying to keep warm is inside a sleeping bag, on top of an insulated mat and then presumably your normal tent groundsheet. Your main route for heatloss to the ground is going to be conduction - and I don't see how a foil layer helps that, any more that just another plastic/fabric layer of similar thickness would?

Yep never go to bed cold. It’s easy to think in the evening oh I’m cold I’ll go to bed now. Always warm up before you go to bed, find I sleep a lot better.

Booties; I bought some Exped down socks last winter. They’re great if you suffer from cold toes.

Building on those points - never go to bed with damp feet. Its easy to overlook how damp/sweaty your socks are at the end of a day - they may not even feel cold to you but damp feet inside a sleeping bag seems to guarantee a bad night's sleep. If you've reached the age where you need to pee in the middle of the night its also worth thinking about how you will make sure they don't get damp then either (e.g. putting one damp shoes or walking on damp ground).

Ive used(air activated) heat pads as an extra bit of warmth. They dont get that hot but top, middle and toes they throw heat into the bag.

I've never heard of anyone using a 0c comfort back in Scotland this time of year. Mine is -15c comfort. On top of thermarest mat+closed cell foam+folded foilbacked rug.

Eating before sleeping helps considerably too.

One thing is that many light sleeping bags are quite narrow and also better ones have more of the insulation on topside of the bag - me being little bigger (XL clothing on upper body) and side sleeper means that I need to get warmer options.

I’ve never heard of anyone using a 0c comfort back in Scotland this time of year.

Very much depends on the forecast. There are still many milder nights.

Some great tips on here, superb!.

No mention of pillows though, I have a klymit inflatable one that was well reviewed but in reality it's shite. There's one in Decathlon that looks really good, plan on trying that, a pillow can make or break a nights sleep for me.

@scotroutes are you still planning on selling me that siltarp? 😉

The blow up pillows Poundland sell for a quid are surprisingly good. If they're not in stock, something off eBay for a couple of quid.

I can't understand why mat manufacturers don't address 'the pillow issue.' An integral pillow, or even just a sleeve you could stuff clothes into. It's one reason I ended up with this Klymit mat:

https://www.odintactical.co.uk/klymit-inertia-ozone-recon-sleeping-mat

The pillow isn't quite big enough but retains whatever extra padding you put on it. Also, the loft pocket cut-outs actually do make it warmer than other uninsulated mats I've used.

As in a “spaceblanket” like the OP is asking about? The may offer some protection for a casualty from the wind (and convection style heatloss), the foil concept is clearly intended to prevent radiative heatloss by reflecting IR back towards the user – but it seems unlikely that it would have much effect when the object you are trying to keep warm is inside a sleeping bag, on top of an insulated mat and then presumably your normal tent groundsheet. Your main route for heatloss to the ground is going to be conduction – and I don’t see how a foil layer helps that, any more that just another plastic/fabric layer of similar thickness would?

This. Foil works in space (or lofts) where radiative transfer is significant. I can't see how it would make any percievable difference when compressed under a person.

I'm using an Exped inflatable pillow. I made the mistake of kneeling on it when. (over?) inflated which unwelded one line of baffling. It still works ok as long as I don't put in too much air.

Pillow mobility is an issue. A cord wrapped under the mat can help keep it in place, though. That doesn't work well with the mummy shaped mats. I put mine in the hood of my sleeping bag (when I'm not just using a quilt).

Some sticky backed velcro could work. Managed to get a wee long length synmat 7 bargain, scouted out a couple of nice wee sheltered summit spots in the galloways on saturday, looking forward to trying ouy=t some new kit.

I used to use (and still have) an alpkit wee airic, I'm sure the exped will be way better.

Look at the Alpkit Skyhigh and Pipedream as examples – the Skyhigh uses 20d (dernier) inner and 40d outer whereas the Pipedream is 20d inner and outer. Not only is this lighter but it also packs better.

Lighter fabrics actually loft better too, which means you get better performance from the same weight of down in notionally the same size down compartment. As a sort of tangent, this is why sleeping bag / down clothing combos don't always work as well as you think they might - if you're compressing the insulation in either the jacket or the bag or potentially both, the seemingly logical extension to this is the pied d'elephant, a niche, half-length sleeping bag designed specifically to be teamed with a down jacket - Alpkit sold one for a while a few years back, but probably not in any significant volume because...

... they're weird and specialist and leave your arms and hands sticking out instead of being shrouded in lovely warmth inside your sleeping bag. PHD does various odd half-bags and filler bags if you want to go that way, but personally I'd leave them to people who are hell bent on suffering lots 🙂

Wide mouth, secure lid

Like a girl I used to know... Badoom tish etc 🙃

Pillows? I just use a dry bag either with stuff inside or semi inflated. No need to carry anything extra.

Water. It freezes so some special measures may be called for.

Think ahead. If you want water once you've stopped riding, is it available when small streams have iced up?

Store filled water bottles upside down overnight so that ice forms at the bottom of the bottle.

The Sigg hot water bottle will ensure you have liquid water in the morning.

I wild camp mostly in the winter and done down to minus9, live in Central scotland so cold all nights

Uk army bivvy. Neoair mat. Robens 4 season duck down bag. Silk liner and a foil/foam roll which goes under the bivvy. Some nights i undo the bag as so warm.

As others have said eat before bed. Wear thermal undies and socks(you can always take off) and use a tarp when its likely to be damp.

Everything fits on the bike so backpack is for food, beer and cooking kit.

Great advice with Scotroutes and Whitestone so nothing to add apart from

Wearing a face mask seems to make me very hot! I might try wearing one on a bivvy and see how it goes (there was an article in a magazine yonks ago about trying it but I forget what the results were)

Winter is the time for tents imho. So much easier to sit and read the kindle in. Just too many hours of darkness for the bivvy unless you like pushing into the night.

In summer time it's amazing... but in winter, with 15 hours of darkness...it's a pain unless you shoot people for a living.

Not quite as bad as that, summit bivvy locally at the moment (Galloways) could see sunset loveliness extending to after 6pm, and sunrise light filtering through about 12-13 hours later. I could happily go to sleep about 8pm, and wake at 4, have a brew and doze in the warmth. It's nice to take time to not really do much

Gives plenty time to bugger about doing timelapse stuff with the gopro.